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So when do you stop valuebetting vs fish?

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Avatar for which

1307 posts
Joined 09/2009

1/2 NLHE Live table. My image was a losing nit/Tag. An 40 yr old guy just sits down with a full stak, but has called off 1/3 his chips with top pair bad kicker, and the erratic LAP is on the button. The LAP is having the day of his life hitting all sorts of odd two pairs and getting paid, but is generally passive unless he has the nuts. He will also call big raises pre with any two broadway, suited or gapped connectors. He has on occasion raised KXs in LP after the whole table limps, so he seems to know implied odds.

stack sizes MP has 150, BTN has 450, I have 250

Folded around to new guy who limps MP, BTN LAP raises to $12 (standard raise by about 1/3 of table) and I see Aces in the BB. I wanted the MP in, so I flatted. MP calls.

Pot $34, 3 players


I can see this getting checked around, which would be a disaster, so I decide to donk.

I bet $20, MP calls BTN calls

Pot $92 3 players

Turn TDiamond

I am thinking that the board was scary enough that they must have a piece, or a draw rather than a strong hand, they might peel with a Ten, but figure B/F is better than x/c

I bet $50, MP calls BTN calls

Pot $242 3 players

Not liking this, but am trying to figure out what I beat and of that subset, what will call the river....

I am praying for a small red card on river, but trying to figure out which cards I bet and which to c/c and which to perhaps c/f

Any Club I would x/c, any 9 or Q I am x/f, all others I am b/f.

Is this plan about right?

River KSpade

Bet sizing?


Posted about 6 years ago


Avatar for meowjr

535 posts
Joined 02/2011

You didn't mention the effective stacks to start the hand, so it's hard to know sizing.

Also, I don't think x/c a Club OTR is good. The pot is huge and with the board paired already, these guys will probably not VB their flush. Maybe just c/f?

Posted about 6 years ago


Avatar for micsquab

750 posts
Joined 09/2010

I guess b/f for value any non club? Its 1/2 live someone is always on the fd draw.

Posted about 6 years ago


Avatar for HJD

1018 posts
Joined 05/2010


Avatar for which

1307 posts
Joined 09/2009

just 3bet preflop.

yeah, I have been watching some videos and as always the 'student' gets the details wrong Frown

I think most of the situations where hero flats pre w/a strong hand, it is IN POSITION !!


Posted about 6 years ago


Avatar for Grindcore

2382 posts
Joined 11/2008

The LAP is winning and probably over-confident at the moment. He's not folding anything to a big 3bet. He'll call to make 2 pairs, and when he flops one he'll call down to draw to the second.

Your flop bet is way too small. Tons of stuff hit here. Top pairs never fold. Open enders or FDs never fold. Pair+gutshot never folds. Bet $34 or check-raise. You're afraid of it checking through, which is a valid concern since the PFR is passive. But will the PFR also check draws? If he only cbets when he has something, then it checking through ain't that terrible as he'd have folded to a donkbet anyway and whatever completes on the turn, he can't have it, so only MP is a problem then. Donking seems best though and should probably be the default play unless you have good reads allowing you not to.

Imagine your flop bet would have been 34. Now they both call with a wide drawy range. Turn bricks, pot is $146, you have about $200 behind, so you can just jam as any smaller bet is pot committing anyway and get max value/protection.

Posted about 6 years ago

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