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Poker Video: Stud/Stud 8 by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Nice episode Joe!
I fear the pyramid with the highlighted tip didn't feature enough in the video ... and the excuse about Chuck not helping with the math ...

As for some actual questions about the video, it seems like you're folding a lot in Stud8!

Given what you said about folding high hands when you have a low hand that hits an ace, does this mean that if you have the low hand & hit an ace on fourth that you should be jamming? Assuming you're playing in the type of 'good game' you mentioned, with 4+ players to fourth street, at what point do you slow down if you don't make something big with your hand (eg: you call from bring with [3h7h]5h & catch As on fourth, bet & get called in two or three spots - say J9, K6 & 45ss)?
What about a limped pot (yes, you get those sometimes) as a bring-in with say a 4 door when you catch an Ace ... is it a good bluffing spot?

Also of use (to avoid the death of Chuck & others playing the JoeTall Situation drinking game) could be a thesaurus, although this The Saurus is also useful!

Nice episode Joe!
I fear the pyramid with the highlighted tip didn't feature enough in the video ...

Can you expand? I figured my use of the image was clear, you want the best high hands in Stud8 without a doubt.

As for some actual questions about the video, it seems like you're folding a lot in Stud8!

This is a really general statement that you should avoid. It all about "The Situation" which will determine when to fold.

Given what you said about folding high hands when you have a low hand that hits an ace, does this mean that if you have the low hand & hit an ace on fourth that you should be jamming?

Without knowing specifics about the exact hands, in general when you have a 3-card low and are against a obvious high-only hand, yes you should be lead-betting.

Assuming you're playing in the type of 'good game' you mentioned, with 4+ players to fourth street, at what point do you slow down if you don't make something big with your hand (eg: you call from bring with [3h7h]5h & catch As on fourth, bet & get called in two or three spots - say J9, K6 & 45ss)?

First of all if you have al live 375 on 3rd you should be jamming, especially against two obv high hands. But I will address low-hands in later episodes after I get through the high-hand situations.

What about a limped pot (yes, you get those sometimes) as a bring-in with say a 4 door when you catch an Ace ... is it a good bluffing spot?

HU vs a obvious high-only hand, absolutely a great spot to lead out.

Re: Advice for the video.

I would like to see some visual representation of some of the examples. It does not have to be a full History replayer.....but with 3rd st decisions at least having all the starting cards on the slide would be helpful. Given that between the clear decisions there seems to be a gradual differentiation between 'liveness' and a gradual differentiation between risk that door cards represent of players yet to act when opening, completing and stealing.
Whilst it might be second nature to you Joe with your visualisation,memorisation techniques ingrained - its hard for beginners to follow precisely without some visual prompts.


Hope that helps

Digger.

Can you expand? I figured my use of the image was clear, you want the best high hands in Stud8 without a doubt.

It was in the teaser & was only on screen for about two and a half minutes ... I was hoping for the lower parts of the pyramid to disappear, with the graphics reflecting your comments ... so you have (9J)9 v K v Q v 6 v 2 written on the bottom section of the pyramid ... and it disappears, because you're lopping it from your Stud8 game! Or maybe I'm just expecting too much!

This is a really general statement that you should avoid. It all about "The Situation" which will determine when to fold.

OK, how about a more specific general statement ... folding marginal high hands (eg: split 8s-Qs) on 3rd when in early position with overcards and/or dead cards behind.

What about when you have an 'island hand' ... say Ks v 7 low door cards (2-8 & no spades) ...
a) Is this a good steal spot, regardless of your hole cards?
b) If you are in a game with lots of callers, what would be the bottom of your range for raising with the Ks door (obviously you're raising split kings, big pocket pairs, etc), but do you raise (QJ)K here with a 2-suit? Rainbow?
c) If you are playing against players who tend to play their own hand a lot more than considering their opponents' boards (mainly thinking of playing live & noticing people who never look around at their opponents' boards), at what point (if any) do you slow down with a hand like (TT)Ks when your hand does not improve on later streets & your opponent(s) have somewhat scary boards (say they catch offsuit low card on 4th, high card same suit as door card on 5th, etc ... or go low, low but not connected or suited like 285r)?

Another situation I had in a live tournament ... opponent had raised with a 9 door & I re-raised with an A door ... he called & check-raised 4th when he caught a high card & I caught a low card & we capped betting. He caught an A on 5th & we again capped betting & he was all-in by 6th ... we both started rolled up (cooler I know) ... given that he was against an A door & he has an obviously high-only hand, is there any way for him not to go broke on the hand? Does the fact that he catches the case A on 5th mean he has to go broke here, as it is far more likely that I have split aces or four low cards rather than rolled up aces?

Also, given that you've really only started to get into high only hands ... and this is already episode 2 of 8 (for the season) ... should we be expecting the year to finish off with The Situation (part 6) ... when you finally get around to dealing with playing an ace door.
Not that its a bad thing ... love the series so far & appreciate the detail required ... just the whole multiple board, split pot thing make it (seemingly at least) so much more complicated than holdem!

Time Link to 00:21:39

So if you are the opponent catching the A on 4th vs a pair of Ks, is this a standard bet out almost always then?

Here's some synonyms for "situation" http://www.synonyms.net/synonym/situation although it appears to be an abridged version or something. I cannot find mcgillicutty on the list anywhere and we all know that mcgillicutty is a synonym to any word in the English language. I therefore have to assume the list is probably missing other synonyms as well.

So if you are the opponent catching the A on 4th vs a pair of Ks, is this a standard bet out almost always then?

Yes, as you can see from my replies to SilentBob above.

Re: Advice for the video.

I would like to see some visual representation of some of the examples. It does not have to be a full History replayer.....but with 3rd st decisions at least having all the starting cards on the slide would be helpful. Given that between the clear decisions there seems to be a gradual differentiation between 'liveness' and a gradual differentiation between risk that door cards represent of players yet to act when opening, completing and stealing.
Whilst it might be second nature to you Joe with your visualisation,memorisation techniques ingrained - its hard for beginners to follow precisely without some visual prompts.


Hope that helps

Digger.

So, correct me if I'm wrong but you are looking for these theories put to practice, correct? Would a supplemental live video help? (I did do this for Nightmare on 7st, EP4 was live play to put it all in practice.)

It was in the teaser & was only on screen for about two and a half minutes ... I was hoping for the lower parts of the pyramid to disappear, with the graphics reflecting your comments ... so you have (9J)9 v K v Q v 6 v 2 written on the bottom section of the pyramid ... and it disappears, because you're lopping it from your Stud8 game! Or maybe I'm just expecting too much!

Yeah I suck at computer graphics, I'm really a noob but feel I'm holding my own enough with the presentation format so far.

OK, how about a more specific general statement ... folding marginal high hands (eg: split 8s-Qs) on 3rd when in early position with overcards and/or dead cards behind.

So are you saying there are all high cards to act, no lows? Well, its a Stud High hand to begin with, play accordingly.

What about when you have an 'island hand' ... say Ks v 7 low door cards (2-8 & no spades) ...
a) Is this a good steal spot, regardless of your hole cards?

I stated in Episode 1 that there is no extended-steal/island hands in Stud Hi/Low. Two many low hand opportunities, stealing has to be reserved for late position only.

b) If you are in a game with lots of callers, what would be the bottom of your range for raising with the Ks door (obviously you're raising split kings, big pocket pairs, etc), but do you raise (QJ)K here with a 2-suit? Rainbow?

No raising KJQ here, I actually talk about that here: http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/9611-Episode-Two?seek=2001

Depending what is live and dead, what position you are, and who and what are left to act, you could add in non-paired LsLs-Ks, where L=A-8.

c) If you are playing against players who tend to play their own hand a lot more than considering their opponents' boards (mainly thinking of playing live & noticing people who never look around at their opponents' boards), at what point (if any) do you slow down with a hand like (TT)Ks when your hand does not improve on later streets & your opponent(s) have somewhat scary boards (say they catch offsuit low card on 4th, high card same suit as door card on 5th, etc ... or go low, low but not connected or suited like 285r)?

HU vs a low, you will mostly be checking and calling vs non-scooping low boards. I will address this in the next classroom episode in this series.

Another situation I had in a live tournament ... opponent had raised with a 9 door & I re-raised with an A door ... he called & check-raised 4th when he caught a high card & I caught a low card & we capped betting. He caught an A on 5th & we again capped betting & he was all-in by 6th ... we both started rolled up (cooler I know) ... given that he was against an A door & he has an obviously high-only hand, is there any way for him not to go broke on the hand? Does the fact that he catches the case A on 5th mean he has to go broke here, as it is far more likely that I have split aces or four low cards rather than rolled up aces?

It makes no sense at all for him to get it in on 5th if you were showing a possible scooping low-board, esp after he catches the case Ace.

Also, given that you've really only started to get into high only hands ... and this is already episode 2 of 8 (for the season) ... should we be expecting the year to finish off with The Situation (part 6) ... when you finally get around to dealing with playing an ace door.
Not that its a bad thing ... love the series so far & appreciate the detail required ... just the whole multiple board, split pot thing make it (seemingly at least) so much more complicated than holdem!

I'm pretty sure there is no way I can keep this series to eight episodes. It may be running for a long time, especially now that I'm entertaining adding live-play videos to supplement the theory videos.

Time Link to 00:18:19

Ace pairing Math


#1
Your opponent starts with 3-cards 8 or less, example: LL|8 where L=A-8, and therefore can be paired.
All Aces are live.
You have have 3-high cards, no-lows.

1 - ((27 / 30) * (26 / 29)) = 0.193103448 = 19% he paired the Ace on 4th street.

#2
Your opponent starts with 3-cards 8 or less but no Ace, example: XX|8 where X=2-8, and therefore can be paired.
All Aces are live.
You have have 3-high cards, no-lows, and do not catch an Ace on any street.

We have seen 14 cards on 4th street (8 doorcards + 2 own holecards + 2 our opponents holecards since we are assuming they are non-Aces + 2 on 4th street). So it is 35/38, 33/36 and 31/34 against making a pair of Aces

1 - (35/38 * 33/36 * 31/34) = ~23% on making a pair of Aces by the river when they have a non-Ace four low and bing and Ace on 4th street, ex hand: 248A

Thanks for posting the formulas. So it looks like you are basically figuring out the chances of not making AA and subtracting it from 1 to give you the chance of making it. Makes sense to me.

Thanks for posting the formulas. So it looks like you are basically figuring out the chances of not making AA and subtracting it from 1 to give you the chance of making it. Makes sense to me.

Yep.

So, correct me if I'm wrong but you are looking for these theories put to practice, correct? Would a supplemental live video help? (I did do this for Nightmare on 7st, EP4 was live play to put it all in practice.)

Joe no doubt any video of your live play would help - but that was not my point.

What I was trying to say is - in the section on High only pairs and describing the door cards of the players yet to act. It would have helped me, and I assume other beginners to all stud games who have not mastered the memorisation, to just have a visual prompt of the situation.

e.g. We have Split kings with Ace, 2 and 8 behind us - if you hear that its prolly fine by itself but when you rattle off a couple in a row it kinda gets lost the exact distinction. So we might be able to grasp the underlying concept that high only pairs are alot less stronger than in Stud hi but we might not get the exact feel for where the line is behind us.
If instead we had seen a visual representation like:
KJK
It might be borderline or a fold to play when the dead cards include a K J Q,T and you have an A and a 2 and 7 behind

Yet if ALL your spades are live and all your kings are live - even if there are is A and two bad lows 8 7 you might play even with the Ace behind

Just having the doors represented in some way would be handy....in your example - so you can then have
like Situation A, B , C with split Kings and have the subtle differences shown visually side by side

Hope that makes sense

Joe no doubt any video of your live play would help - but that was not my point.

What I was trying to say is - in the section on High only pairs and describing the door cards of the players yet to act. It would have helped me, and I assume other beginners to all stud games who have not mastered the memorisation, to just have a visual prompt of the situation.

e.g. We have Split kings with Ace, 2 and 8 behind us - if you hear that its prolly fine by itself but when you rattle off a couple in a row it kinda gets lost the exact distinction. So we might be able to grasp the underlying concept that high only pairs are alot less stronger than in Stud hi but we might not get the exact feel for where the line is behind us.
If instead we had seen a visual representation like:
KJK
It might be borderline or a fold to play when the dead cards include a K J Q,T and you have an A and a 2 and 7 behind

Yet if ALL your spades are live and all your kings are live - even if there are is A and two bad lows 8 7 you might play even with the Ace behind

Just having the doors represented in some way would be handy....in your example - so you can then have
like Situation A, B , C with split Kings and have the subtle differences shown visually side by side

Hope that makes sense

To be dead honest, sounds like you understand it perfectly. However, I am going to do a review video to supplement each theory/classroom vid.

To be dead honest, sounds like you understand it perfectly. However, I am going to do a review video to supplement each theory/classroom vid.

Can't hurt Joe, but I think you're still drawing dead on the bet with Chuck ... unless you sabotage his internet when he's over in your part of town

Time Link to 00:30:29

What kind of pot odds would you need before you would be willing to call on 4th street after your opponent catches a suited connector to his door card?

I understand that putting in more money as a 57:43 underdog is bad. But depending on the pot odds, I think a check call on 4th might be the best move. If there is roughly one small bet's worth on money in the pot from the antes, and you completed on 3rd street, and your opponent called on 3rd street, then there are 3 small bets in the pot. If your opponent bets 4th, 5th, 6th, and the river, then you would need to call one small bet, and three large bets to get to show-down. This means you would have to put in the equivalent of 7 small bets to win 7 small bets from your opponent and 3 small bets in the pot. So your overall reverse implied odds come out to 10:7. That means you need to have 7/17 or 41% equity to make this play profitable. So it seems to me that 43% equity is enough. I know that your opponent could catch perfect on 5th and you might have to fold, but then again he could also brick on 5th and you could get a bet in as a favorite.

Time Link to 00:00:00

Great video, Joe. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.

Great video, Joe. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.

TY!