Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Micro/Small Stakes)

What Would Joe Tall Do?: Episode One

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What Would Joe Tall Do?: Episode One by Joe Tall, WiltOnTilt

Welcome to the debut video of What Would Joe Tall Do? Joe Tall and WiltOnTilt review the past week's quiz results and discuss each of the hands in depth.

About What Would Joe Tall Do? Subscribe to

Grand prize winner of the DC Invent-A-Series Contest. This interactive series tests your practical knowledge of Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em. Every other week Joe Tall will post a quiz asking about various hand situations that come up in the game, then on the following week he posts answers in the form of a video with one other DC coach. Prizes will be awarded for those getting the highest scores each week and the highest overall score at the end of the series. Look for quizzes in the Small Stakes forum.

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joe tall what would joe tall do wwjtd hand replayer 50nl ipod friendly wiltontilt

Video Details

  • Game: nlhe
  • Stakes: Micro/Small Stakes
  • 59 minutes long
  • Posted almost 6 years ago

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Comments for What Would Joe Tall Do?: Episode One

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Nebulosity

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394 posts
Joined 05/2008

Nebulosity

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394 posts
Joined 05/2008

Wow I really need to work on bet sizing, time to hit the HEM archive and see what I'm doing cuz WOT is owning me with bet sizing info.

Posted almost 6 years ago

Joe Tall

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6695 posts
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Derek

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Joined 08/2008

Congrats to everyone who got question #1 correct.

Posted almost 6 years ago

CazicThule

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614 posts
Joined 08/2008

I like this format very much. I hope to see many more series like this.

I didn't do the survey on time so I am not accounted for on the real leaderboard, but I did it on my own and got 22 Points.

Posted almost 6 years ago

Joe Tall

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6695 posts
Joined 11/2006

I like this format very much. I hope to see many more series like this.

I didn't do the survey on time so I am not accounted for on the real leaderboard, but I did it on my own and got 22 Points.



There will be a lot of points to score, so you are not to late. Keep your eye on the SSNL forum for the EP2 quiz, early next week.

Posted almost 6 years ago

FairyTales

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49 posts
Joined 07/2008

Loved the format too and WiltOnTilt in depth explanations of the why, wish i didn't missed the first survey, but the interactive idea is really good!

Nice job!

Posted almost 6 years ago

danndann1

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300 posts
Joined 05/2008

this is a super format...
can you guys, besides the correct play, make a note on the worse play also on every hand?
tx!

Posted almost 6 years ago

Acombfosho

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3147 posts
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HoneyFishy

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44 posts
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Nice series! Very innovative idea to activate us viewers through a quiz.
Another reason to renew my subscription... Smile

Posted almost 6 years ago

titibxl

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pokerholic
54 posts
Joined 07/2008

Wouldn't it be nice to post the quizz somewhere for those (like myself) who have missed it so we can still try to answer the questions on our own before watching the video ?

TYVM

Posted almost 6 years ago

ClicktyClick

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260 posts
Joined 11/2008

Dont really agree with the TT hand though.

Posted almost 6 years ago

Joe Tall

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Joined 11/2006

Wouldn't it be nice to post the quizz somewhere for those (like myself) who have missed it so we can still try to answer the questions on our own before watching the video ?

TYVM



Click the link about 6 posts up.

Posted almost 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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5389 posts
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WiltOnTilt

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2652 posts
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Dont really agree with the TT hand though.



feel free to elaborate if you'd like further discussion.

Thanks for watching!
WoT

Posted almost 6 years ago

Hielko

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4408 posts
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Well, I didn't really like the play with the TT hands either - no idea if I'm thinking the same thing as ClicktyClick - but I'll give my thoughts about it:

Preflop: You think folding is the 2nd worst option, and that 4betting and getting it in is actually a better idea. I really doubt that is the case. The only read is that villain is aggressive, but 50NL is full with aggro players that NEVER 3bet an UTG/MP open light. I would say that people 3betting more than TT+,AK from this spot are pretty rare at 50NL, and most people 3bet even way tighter. If villain is loose aggro preflop it changes things, but if he is just an aggro standard 50nl tag: I would just fold it.

flop: I actually like checking behind here, but that's mostly because I think that his initial 3betting range is way tighter and that he is trapping with a monster (mostly KK) or trying to potcontrol with JJ-QQ. I don't think we have the best hand here very often, because against a range of TT+,AK we obv. don't beat anything. We could be good if he 3bet us with air, or with a hand like AQ, but don't think that's often the case.

turn: I obv. don't really like this either. At this point I do think that a large part of his range is JJ-QQ, but I wouldn't want to try to bluff people of this hand. The only river card that maybe is going to work is an A.

Posted almost 6 years ago

WiltOnTilt

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if you check behind on the flop are you calling the turn? do you expect him to all of a sudden bluff or value bet a worse hand on the turn when he doesn't bet the flop?

if you think the range is AK and TT+ then fold pf obv... the read joe tall gave was he's lag pf and lag postflop. I'm putting his range as significantly wider. It's unfortunate JT didn't have any sort of stats.

what this hand illustrates is a primary logic gap most players have when it comes to the range of hands people check on these types of boards in 3bet pots. Most players are checking hands with showdown value that they aren't comfortable betting for value here but also aren't air, because esp on these K high boards people cbet air since everyone loves to put the 3bettor on AK. This is especially true for loose aggro guys, who are looking for any excuse to bluff.

When we bet here, we're betting for value/protection with options later. If we think he's never folding QQ/JJ by the river, then don't bet the turn (like i think i said in the vid). When we bet the flop we're also making the assumption that his flop checkraises are pretty straight up as big hands or monster draws (in other words, we don't expect him to go for a c/r here with like 65o that he 3bet pre).

All that said, of course if you're putting his range as TT+ and AK then it throws everything else out the window because we shouldn't even be in the hand in the first place, unless the stacks get deeper.

WoT

Posted almost 6 years ago

Hielko

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if you check behind on the flop are you calling the turn? do you expect him to all of a sudden bluff or value bet a worse hand on the turn when he doesn't bet the flop?


I probably folding the turn, but I obviously wouldn't be in the hand in the first place. If you think his range is way wider I like the small flop bet for value/protection. Still not so sure about the small turn bet, even against the more laggy players I think you will be valuecutting yourself a lot and betting to give youself the option of bluffing JJ/QQ is certainly against the bad/laggy players at 50NL not the thing I would want to do.

if you think the range is AK and TT+ then fold pf obv... the read joe tall gave was he's lag pf and lag postflop. I'm putting his range as significantly wider. It's unfortunate JT didn't have any sort of stats.


I guess I interpreted JT's read different, because he said that villain was aggro pre and post. If that's really his only read I think assuming that villain is 1. loose and 2. a 3bet maniac is a huge mistake. And certainly assuming that he is a loose 3better is often a big mistake, because even the guys playing 40/30 preflop often just 3bet 2% of hands or so.

I just checked my HM database and the average 3bet% at 50NL is a little bit less than 5%, so I think you can see why I wanted to fold pre here Smile

what this hand illustrates is a primary logic gap most players have when it comes to the range of hands people check on these types of boards in 3bet pots. Most players are checking hands with showdown value that they aren't comfortable betting for value here but also aren't air, because esp on these K high boards people cbet air since everyone loves to put the 3bettor on AK. This is especially true for loose aggro guys, who are looking for any excuse to bluff.


Totally agree with this Smile

Posted almost 6 years ago

Soepgroente

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493 posts
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I did pretty well (22 pts) but I disagreed a lot in this video hehe.

About the TT hand:

I think the preflop decision is close between a fold and a call, 4bet/fold is obviously bad and 4bet/call is very spewy. As stated above by someone else, people at nl50 just don't ever 3bet UTG light, so I'd not be at all surprised if his range was JJ or QQ+/AK here.

The flop seems like a REALLY clear check behind to me. The guy always has JJ/QQ or a hit here, given the read he'd always cbet his air. You can't assume people at nl50 folding QQ or JJ unless you 3barrel which is major spew because once again his range is so strong and you're trying to fold out only 2 exact hands, where AA/AK/KK is more likely and the risk:reward ratio is just pretty bad if you have to 3barrel every time.

The turn bet seems even more horrendous, we're actually bluffing now (not getting value from worse, ever) and we're not bluffing a great card, once again we're only hoping JJ/QQ folds which won't fold a lot on the turn still. The minraise just confirms things for me that he was probably slowplaying a monster, whether that be AA or KK here (maaaaaaybe 99 but it's extremely hard to make quads, but his line makes good sense with it apart from it usually being a flatcall preflop)


I was the guy who said the 19/10 wasn't a TAG, its only the T from TAG and the AG is just not there, a TAG's stats are more like 20/17, 19/10 is just openlimping a lot where a TAG always openraises first in. If he's raising utg and only raising 10% AT is toast like you guys said. If he cbets near pot on a low flop he almost always has an overpair or AK imo. I think you got extremely lucky with that turn and he probably folded a pair between the 6 and the K, but I really doubt you would've taken it away on pretty much any other turn. Oh and calling isn't such a bad alternative by the way, his range should be pretty strong and with the fact that the flush is backdoor so he's never putting you on it makes it probably a profitable call as you can usually get a lot of money in on the river on a hit. Also aces are probably outs so you have 12 outs of which 9 are very good implied odd-wise.


Great series by the way. Looking forward to episode 2 Smile

Posted almost 6 years ago

WiltOnTilt

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did you read my response a few posts above about this hand?

perfectly fine for us to agree to disagree. mostly it starts with his pf range.

When the reads were given to me originally on these hands (off camera) it sounded like the guy was v lag pre and post...which is why I disagree with JJ+/AK range. if we're playing against a standard tag then I would agree with you.

I also commented in the video (pretty sure, didnt go back to rewatch) that we're not planning to bet the turn unless we think we can get him off QQ/JJ by the river. If the read is he won't fold QQ/JJ by the river and he can't c/c us again with 77/88 or similar (which it's kind of lol to say he never folds JJ by the river AND he never calls 88/77 on the turn). Again, you might say that's not in his range pf, but the read given to me when answering these questions to begin with was he was very aggro pre and post. Also, never getting called by worse when betting the turn isn't enough of a consideration to make betting bad in and of itself.

I keep reading this faulty logic of "omg he thinks your range is so strong he'll never 3bet you light here pf" followed up by "omg are you kidding he's never gonna fold to 3 barrels with second pair!" Think about that for a second guys...

Last thing I'll throw out there on this hand, I suspect those people who hate this play have never tried it. I'm not saying I know for sure they fold QQ/JJ on the river (i wouldn't know, since they fold!) but I am saying it's something you should consider trying out... making a marginal value/protection bet on the turn in order to give yourself the option of bluffing the river. It's a concept that rarely gets talked about in videos from what I've seen and imo it's the type of thinking that separates small stakes grinders from people who break through to the higher stakes.

Hope that makes some sense at least. If you still don't agree, that's ok... but hopefully it will at least get you thinking about some of these spots in the future where you think his range might be a little wider and therefore the CONCEPT is more applicable in your mind.

WoT

Posted almost 6 years ago

Soepgroente

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493 posts
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I keep reading this faulty logic of "omg he thinks your range is so strong he'll never 3bet you light here pf" followed up by "omg are you kidding he's never gonna fold to 3 barrels with second pair!" Think about that for a second guys...


That's what good players don't do. But bad players at nl50 do it all the time Wink

From my experience guys like that either cbet or check intending not to quit, at least not on the flop. And no he doesn't think our range is strong utg, he doesn't typically actually think about why he's doing what he's doing and just 3bets buttonraises like a maniac. That's how I perceive a typical nl50 overaggro donkey Poke Tongue

Also those aggro players can turn into real calling stations. They bluff all the time so once they have something marginal they're paranoid about being bluffed. I have been quite unsuccessful trying to barrel people off of midpairs at nl50, and the fact that there's so much money in the pot doesn't help our cause imo.

I will completely agree with you though if his 3bet range is something like AJs/AQo+/KQs/77+. So I guess it does indeed go back to what we think his preflop range is Smile (FWIW I really like playing the hand like suggested at say, nl400).

Posted almost 6 years ago

Soepgroente

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Actually I was thinking about this and I didn't word my feeling correctly.

At nl50 I try not to bet unless I have the best hand over half the time (for obvious reasons stated in previous post). I don't think TT is the best hand over half the time here once he calls the flop. That's all Poke Tongue

Posted almost 6 years ago

Joe Tall

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Actually I was thinking about this and I didn't word my feeling correctly.

At nl50 I try not to bet unless I have the best hand over half the time (for obvious reasons stated in previous post). I don't think TT is the best hand over half the time here once he calls the flop. That's all Poke Tongue



FWIW, my description should have been a lot clearer and I feel his range is wider but I have followed this thread (thanks to WOT for replying) and I like the discussion (that what learning poker is all about, imo.)

Posted almost 6 years ago

AllDayFade

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This series will be epic, IMO. I think it's actually one of the better formats because it forces discussion on the merits of different lines.

Also, taking the quiz beforehand is very helpful. I don't know about other people but I catch myself autopiloting sometimes when watching a video. I'll see a coach make a particular line and I'll understand his thinking at the time and everything will make perfect sense to me. But for some reason, once I get to the tables, I find myself making a different decision. I think it's because when I watch the videos on autopilot, I haven't actively gone through the process of weighing my options. But taking the quiz beforehand puts me in the exact spot that the coach is in and forces me to think things through.

Just one question about the TT hand. When we say that the TURN bet is a "value/protection bet that gives us the option of bluffing the RIVER", the value part of the equation isn't as big a factor as folding out better hands like QQ/JJ, right?

Are there many other hands besides 88 that we get value from and that would also call us on the TURN? I only ask because I eliminated most other hands like 7x, Straight Draws, Flush Draws, or AQ/AJ, thinking that they wouldn't call us again after our TURN bet.

Is that wrong?

Posted almost 6 years ago

Joe Tall

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Joe Tall

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RedBarracuda

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Actually I was thinking about this and I didn't word my feeling correctly.

At nl50 I try not to bet unless I have the best hand over half the time (for obvious reasons stated in previous post). I don't think TT is the best hand over half the time here once he calls the flop. That's all Poke Tongue


First of all, I don't remember the hand completely, and am posting my answer just from the discussion I read here..

I think that's there is the problem (your quote). People will often peel one with QQ or JJ on the K hi flop and then check it down or even bet small on the river trying to get some value and your logic falls perfectly into their lap and plan because you don't have a better hand on the turn (or river) and you fold or you call that small bet thinking .. well, something.. If you however continue the pressure on turn then things change.. ducy?

Posted almost 6 years ago

ClicktyClick

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260 posts
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feel free to elaborate if you'd like further discussion.

Thanks for watching!
WoT



Well, I dont think it's a spot where he will 3bet often, assuming he isn't a maniac. 2nd, the pair value of TT drops vs an aggro opponent, a call will get you in tough spots assuming he is willing to bet any flop and probably 2nd barrel so that you wouldnt even feel comfortable stacking off on a xxx board. I would mainly fold and find a better spot to ship it vs an aggro player, offcourse you can play back more often if you have reads/his a complete maniac.

CC

Posted almost 6 years ago

geometryb

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for the TT hand, would you get it in vs the turn check raise with KQ or AQ?
could KQ be considered the same hand as TT in that spot?

would it be wrong to call a 3bet preflop there with KQ and AQ? with the plan of getting it in with any top pair whether by calling down or raising?

if you had TT and he cbet the flop, would you ever bluff raise the flop? what if you had a hand that didn't have as much showdown value like AJ? AK?
if you call a 3bet there, you're probably atleast calling a flop cbet? if he fires turn, are you folding? peeling again?
calling down 3 streets?
do you plan on getting it in if you have an overpair?

i kind of want to know more about your postflop plan when you call with TT

Posted almost 6 years ago



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