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3-6 FR: AA Multiway Cap Pot

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SIide

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SB is more or less a straight forward TAG grinder reg w/ a 15/12 style. UTG+2 appears to be similar with 17/13 type stats playing on multiple tables and I would assume is another grinder regular, but I don't have as many hands or notes on him.

I played the hand differently postflop than I would have in the past, but still well I think. Still, I'd like to hear what others think. I'll post my thought process after I get a couple responses.

Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 10 players - View hand 1360439
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is MP3 with A Heart A Club
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero caps!, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls

Flop: (17 SB) 5 Diamond 6 Club T Spade (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls, SB calls

Turn: (11.5 BB) 3 Club (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls

River: (18.5 BB) J Club (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

Final Pot: 22.5 BB

Posted about 3 years ago

aaahshoveit

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In all honesty this hand baffles the absolute shit out of me. I think I would have probably 3bet the flop but as played considered folding to the turn 3bet and then stationed down because I have AA just because the sbs turn 3b looks really strong, like a set strong. Maybe the SB calls really loose pre-f and can have some 2ps but then he can probably also have some straights. I can't really even assign the SB much of a donking range I just have no idea.
I'd be interested to hear your views on their ranges though and why you played it how you did.
And I hope you won the 22.5(?!!) BBs.

Posted about 3 years ago

grandmofftarkin

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For preflop, UTG+2 3-betting looks pretty strong, especially from someone playing 17/13. As for the sb (playing 15/12) taking 3.5 to the face, I'm not sure we can adjust that range as stronger hands can't reraise, but we can rule out some weaker hands. I'm guessing weaker ones that coldcall consist of set mining/implied odds hands. I'm thinking smaller suited connectors won't play as well in that spot OOP, but smaller pocket pairs would have a "no set/no bet" mentality and could be in the range?

As for Hero's flop play, I can understand waiting for the turn. I'm guessing you thought UTG+2 would fire twice with his entire range. You look in pretty good shape with that range, and there aren't really any scare cards unless UTG+2 binks a set on the turn. I think if sb hadn't donked, then I'm ok with waiting to get an extra big bet in on the turn. If HU, you're both pretty much going to showdown at that point right?

I think the problem with your plan occurrs with sb's donk. Would that donk really happen with a suited broadway hand? No, right? Would it happen with an overpair? I'm thinking an overpair would want to checkraise and get value that way...that donk looks really, really strong. Like, "I know I'm about to get raised, but I don't care" strong.

On the turn, I think your plan to get the raise in is fine, but as soon as sb (a 15/12 player) 3-bets, what worse hand could that possibly be? Maybe at worst the other AA hand? To me it looks like sb took your same "wait to get the extra bet in on the turn" idea. I really hope you won this pot, or at least chopped...

Posted about 3 years ago

SIide

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My thoughts on the hand.

Preflop, in experience a 15/12 grinder at these levels doesn't really mess around with hands like 55-66 or T9s in this spot, so I expect his range is AQs+, maybe 88/99+.

On the flop, once SB leads I think his range is TT+ as well as some random leads w/ AK. I think UTG can reraise the flop with all his PP's, so like 88+. I also see some AK type hands where I imagine UTG thinks its like a free card play or to force me to face 2 bets or some thought process similar.

I decided to cold call for several reasons. Cold 3-betting basically announces I have an overpair in this spot and my opponents are going to immediately make proper adjustments. If I just call, my opponents are probably going to assume I have a hand like AT, 88, or AK that just doesn't want to fold yet. I'm also not too worried about giving a cheap card to the SB at this point as a hand like AK needs runner runner and a hand like JJ just isn't going to fold anyways. I guess if SB does have like 88 in this spot I would prefer him to fold, but thats a relatively small portion of his range. I actually think I like CC'ing this spot with my entire continuing range to disguise the strength of my hand/ make good turn decisions.

Once I get the turn, the reraise is obviously standard. When I get 3-bet by the SB I put him a range of TT+, I think if he's capable of slowplaying TT on the flop, we should assume he can slowplay/see what the turn brings w/ JJ+ as well. I think this is where my flop cold call really helps as my cold call flop, reraise this turn really looks like AT hoping for a safe turn card or AKcc doing some type of FSDR and he can 3-bet me with all his overpairs.

So against a range of TT+, I'm doing well enough to just cap & bet the river, but I really don't want to have to call a river C/R. If I just call the turn 3-bet, there are some rivers (like clubs) where I can freeze all his better hands as he can't really 3-bet me on this river with TT even JJ really and if he does I can safely fold. Also, if I just call the turn 3-b & the Riv comes a say a K and he still leads, I can probably just call and feel fine about it.

Posted about 3 years ago

RedHot

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Interesting. I would tend to 3 bet the flop for straight value, with three players in the pot. I understand the desire to keep some disguise but multiway the sacrifice might be too much. If I was desperate to balance it might be to 3 bet all the hands I continue with, rather than calling.

SB's turn check/3 bet looks strong, and my first instinct would be to just call the river.

If you are correct about his preflop range of AQ+ and 88+ I would suggest by the river he can only have TT+. We lose to TT (he really ought to put more action in on the flop with this) and JJ, beat QQ and KK and chop to the one combo of AA. The fact that he only calls on the river at the end seems to suggest you took down the hand - nice one! Raise/fold on the river might be a play, but I don't think I could manage it myself in such a big pot.

Posted about 3 years ago

SIide

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Interesting. I would tend to 3 bet the flop for straight value, with three players in the pot. I understand the desire to keep some disguise but multiway the sacrifice might be too much. If I was desperate to balance it might be to 3 bet all the hands I continue with, rather than calling.



I think we might give away too much information with a flop 3-bet that will hurt our value on later streets. If I 3-bet the flop, I imagine JJ & probably QQ are going to just go in a shell OTT & OTR and call down very often. I'll probably still cooler KK for 1-2 more bets, but I'll still likely do that if I delay to the turn anyways and I give my opponent a good opportunity to make a bigger mistake with JJ/QQ against my range. I also think cold 3-betting the flop with something like ATs, 99, etc would be pretty spewy, especially without a read that we could take a free card on the turn very often.

As for the river, I think some people might look at this and say we beat KK & QQ, but lose to JJ & TT so we should probably just call, but in reality there are 2x as many QQ/KK combos as TT/JJ in this spot, making it a fairly easy raise. I agree that in a pot this size, I probably would end up cry calling a river 3-bet, but the point of waiting for the river (rather than capping the turn) is that I think its really hard for villain to 3-bet TT, even JJ, so I don't expect to get 3-bet on the river very often at all.

Posted about 3 years ago

aaahshoveit

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I've had a good look over the hand again and your explanation of things makes a lot of sense and given the tightness of everyones range here I can see how your play could get worse overpairs to overplay and get you more value and I agree you do look like you can have a AK or maybe AQ too in your range when just coldcall the UTG+2s flop raise. I think it's a good interesting line you took with coldcalling the flop.
One thing I don't agree with is your perceived range though of course I'm not sure about how these specific opponents see thing but I wouldn't of thought a ten like AT KT could be in your flop coldcalling range because I would doubt that your capping these pre-f vs an UTG+1 open and UTG+2 3bet. I'm not even sure what I'd do with 88 there personally but that might just come from me being a wuss I don't know.

Assigning appropriate ranges is the big problem I have in this hand and this may just be down to my lack of 10h experience so it's hard for me to be confident with any particular turn or river play.

I would of thought that when UTG+2 raises the flop he must have an overpair when he has the SB leading 4w into the capped pot vs tight ranges and has you, the pre-f capper who capped vs tight opens, behind him.
To me raising AK/AQ there would appear a bit daft given nothing worse is likely to ever fold and even if one player does fold a a rival AQ/AK the other players likely to 3bet you often and may be doing so with hands that have you drawing close to dead. But then UTG+2 folds to the SB's turn 3bet which suprises the hell out of me as the I could only see 88, 99 and then AQ and AK (of which there are a lot more combos) folding there so maybe he did attempt an iso raise with an AK which maybe means my perception of peoples post-flop play in 10h is too passive I don't know.
I guess given the size of the pot there maybe some merit to isoing with AK/AQ preventing a split pot vs another AK/AQ when you do improve in such a big pot but the ranges are so tight I think he's likely just asking for trouble, I don't know.

So then on the flop you cc the UTG+2 players raise, which looks like maybe a stubborn AQ/AK minimum and then raise his turn lead which in my mind would then eliminate AQ/AK for the most part so the SB's 3bet, to me in your shoes at this point, would look like KK+, TT and small sets that cc'd in the blinds to set mine vs a bunch of v.strong, likely raise happy and SD bound hands. But you say he's unlikely to get involved with those and I definitely agree a lot of players do just fold them and maybe tight grinder types in full ring may not be thinking about set mining in which case your AA still has a lot value on the turn.

As I said I would probably raise with KK min in SBs shoes on the turn and coldcall JJ/QQ due to me seeing both of you guys having strong ranges but UTG+2 might have 88+ and you may now be iso/FSDRing an AK/AClubQClub type hand.
Maybe the actual SB thought you could be FSDRing something like that too but as a response thought it better to raise all his value hands to push out the UTG+1s potential AQ/AK (though again it seems unlikely UTG+2 has these in his flop raising range in my eyes) and get v.thin vs your....ugh.....other AK/AQ or 88/99 that wanted to see a nice turn and then decides to iso raise or maybe FSRD the turn? As you can see I don't know if I agree with the SBs play if he did 3bet JJ+ here but I can definitely see somebody doing this though so if you do strictly assign the SB a range of TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA I can see why you might want to put in more value with your AA.

If thats the range I'm assigning SB I would probably just cap the turn though and face the potential of a river c/r. If we do wait til the river to raise him I don't think we can or at least will ever comfortably fold to a 3bet in a pot getting 27.5-1 (at that point) with AA, I don't maybe you could but I sure as hell couldn't, I'm not folding to my grandma getting that price. So I'd just try and get the value in now since he shouldn't have anything that can fold to a river bet anyhow.

I can see what your saying though, TT and any overpair that improves will always c/r us on the riv if we cap the turn and worse will not but when we just call the turn raise and raise club rivs they may not 3bet better sets whilst none of his overpairs are likely to fold.
On the other hand though he might go into c/c mode on some scare rivs in which scenarios we get 1 bet in when ahead (with say JJ on a K riv) and lose 2/3 when behind. I guess there's a small chance he may bet/3b himself for us with QQ/KK on completely blank rivers though.

What was your plan on non-club J,Q,K's?

Sorry for the wall of text.

Posted about 3 years ago

SIide

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AaahShoveit,

I agree with a lot of what your saying. I don't have ATs in my preflop range and honestly I probably don't CC 2! on the flop with AKs/AQs/99 very often at all. That said, I believe its not what my actual range is in this spot, but what my opponents view my range as in this spot that I think is important. I will say I have seen players make strange plays with AK/AQ in multiway spots like this more often then I would expect as I tend to agree with you that reraising them at any point tends to be spewy.

My plan on blank rivers was to also reraise, Cry Call a 3-bet. We put in the same number of bets whether we Cap Turn, Bet/Call Riv or Call Turn, RR/Call Riv, so we aren't losing anymore by delaying to the river. I think we are kinda on a bit of a freeroll to 'Freeze' better hands but get called by worse by waiting for the river. As for when something like a K rolls off on the river, I think its works both ways. He'll Ch/Call worse sometimes, but I can then also save a bet by just calling when he does bet the river.

Posted about 3 years ago

RedHot

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I think we might give away too much information with a flop 3-bet that will hurt our value on later streets. If I 3-bet the flop, I imagine JJ & probably QQ are going to just go in a shell OTT & OTR and call down very often. I'll probably still cooler KK for 1-2 more bets, but I'll still likely do that if I delay to the turn anyways and I give my opponent a good opportunity to make a bigger mistake with JJ/QQ against my range. I also think cold 3-betting the flop with something like ATs, 99, etc would be pretty spewy, especially without a read that we could take a free card on the turn very often.

As for the river, I think some people might look at this and say we beat KK & QQ, but lose to JJ & TT so we should probably just call, but in reality there are 2x as many QQ/KK combos as TT/JJ in this spot, making it a fairly easy raise. I agree that in a pot this size, I probably would end up cry calling a river 3-bet, but the point of waiting for the river (rather than capping the turn) is that I think its really hard for villain to 3-bet TT, even JJ, so I don't expect to get 3-bet on the river very often at all.




The first time I read this I thought you were suggesting that I didn't realise the number of TT/JJ combos was less than the number of QQ/KK combos - LOL!

I am interested in the maths on the river. If we are always calling a 3 bet, how often do we need to be ahead in order to raise? It hardly applies if your read is correct but I am thinking in a more general situation. 3 betting TT is I guess only different to JJ here because we can have JJ ourselves. I think you are arguing that villain is pretty much never raising the river. With this read, I would think you could fold to a raise. Or perhaps you think he can turn a weaker hand into a bluff?

Practical play makes me find it difficult to river raise because I can find villain turning up with something outside of the tight range you suggest, such as TJs. Call me bitter if you like but when I put TAGy villain's on tight ranges they always seem to surprise me.

I agree capping our full range on the flop is likely spewy. I still want to get my value with AA, but I can see where you are coming from.

Posted about 3 years ago

SIide

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I am interested in the maths on the river. If we are always calling a 3 bet, how often do we need to be ahead in order to raise? It hardly applies if your read is correct but I am thinking in a more general situation. 3 betting TT is I guess only different to JJ here because we can have JJ ourselves. I think you are arguing that villain is pretty much never raising the river. With this read, I would think you could fold to a raise. Or perhaps you think he can turn a weaker hand into a bluff?



I think the river math is: Worse Hands that will call - Better hands that will call - 2*(Better hands that will 3-bet) > 0 its a correct raise.

If we assume villain can't reraise the river with anything in his range, but then he does reraise, we have to believe one of our original assumptions was false. If this is the case, we can't know what he is 3-betting the river with and should therefore probably call.

....Call me bitter if you like but when I put TAGy villain's on tight ranges they always seem to surprise me.



This is why I think I enjoy FR so much. In my experience, TAGs rarely surprise me and always have what they are representing because their ranges are so narrow in the first place.

Posted about 3 years ago

RedHot

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That maths looks correct, thank you - obviously we are talking 'combos' for each part of the equation.

If your read is correct then it seems that you played the hand well. Its interesting because I wouldn't normally put as much action in as that when we only has one pear.

Posted about 3 years ago




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