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@Acombfosho

Another take I have is that religion is useful to the extent that it is comforting to people to think that when they die, they dont really die. I think the belief in religion is a self-preservation mechanism overall and its heavily rooted in our evolutionary past.

Richard Dawkins long before he wrote about the God Delusion wrote about our genes in The Selfish Gene. Roughly the premise of the book and what he laid out in-between was evidence showing that we make most of our decisions based upon the maxim of the principle: SURVIVE AT ALL COSTS (hence, The SELFISH Gene). [...]

Getting back to Religion; since survival is so hard wired, its no wonder we WANT to believe in the idea of SURVIVAL even AFTER we pass on. Its so hard wired as an instinct that it doesnt matter if it doesnt make any LOGICAL sense, since survival itself is a primitive reptilian pre-logic force, we have a desire to want to survive and keep surviving and so anything that BEST allows us to do that, we will be predisposed to want to believe it. [...]

i'm lovin' your thought process here. it really mirrors my own thoughts when i started thinking about religion seriously. here's something i wrote up when i was a kid (and liked to write real fancy-like). it was inspired by some long nights of reading Nietzsche and not Dawkins, but we came to the same place i think.




"Beauty is truth, truth beauty--that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know," wrote a poet named John Keats a long time ago. Our minds have evolved to equate beauty with truth. But our truth is not some intangible thing. It is anything life-furthering and species-preserving. That is truth. To deny this is to deny ourselves and what we are.

We embrace beauty in all its forms, the foremost and progenitor of all worldly beauty for us being the beauty of the human form. Someone who sees nothing of beauty in the world can still see it in the human form, since it is a basic part of ourselves. To recognize human beauty is the most fundamental species-preserving trait we have. Without it we would become extinct, for the sole purpose of recognizing human beauty is to procreate. But beauty takes many forms in our world because of the fact we can recognize human beauty--symmetry, proportion, color, form, and ultimately purpose. We have abstracted beauty, abstracted symmetry, proportion, form, color and purpose into the physical and the theoretical: poetry, music, painting, architecture, literature, government, philosophy, and religion.

Beauty is truth to us; truth is beautiful to us. That which furthers our life and furthers our species is beautiful to us, desirable for us. Religion furthers our life and furthers our species eternally, thus it is eternally and absolutely beautiful. So, being that which is beautiful to us is truth to us, religion has become the absolute and eternal truth.

Conversely, atheism does not qualify as beautiful. It does not further life and does not further the species. It does not give you assurance in life or promise immortality. It does not ring of truth, since it is not beautiful in the way we have evolved to recognize beauty. The atheist thus seeks to become more than his instincts. The atheist asserts that beauty is NOT all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. We recognize that beyond the biological level, our falsest opinions are that which is most life-furthering and species-preserving. That which we are extremely drawn to by its absolute beauty is that which is absolutely false.

As an atheist, I break from my biological instinct and my base desires to seek out only beauty. I am wary of that which is most beautiful to me--the absolutely beautiful. These things are nothing to me but surgically enlarged breasts and buttocks and lips, fake and artificial but beautiful on a superficial level. Religion is thus a grossly enlarged fake and artificial human abstraction to me that is only superficially beautiful. I try to understand why I am strongly compelled by subconscious instincts and desires on a rational level. I choose to evolve and better my self on a conscious level.

But my opinion is my opinion, and you have not easily a right to it.

- July 2002

I don't know how much I like this. I mean if I buy some food for a guy on the street and say "God bless" when I give it to him, that doesn't make me a bad person, but at the same time, I'm not going to go up to some random person and start preaching The Bible. I'm not a bad person because I teach/lead a children's ministry at my church either or if I chose to teach my own kids about The Bible. My parents did the same thing when I was growing up, but at the same time, they left it up to us kids to decide for ourselves. My sister does not attend church, I attend a different denomination and my brother still goes to Mass every Sunday. Again, it's all about personal belief. Being a Christian is really supposed to be about forgiveness and willingness to help those in need. Also, the biggest sin a Christian can commit is not believing.

But anyway, I really am done posting on this thread. I'll just keep reading everyone else's thoughts. I think there's only like 2-3 of us that actually believe in religion anyway so I'll let them post. Cheers!

You are not doing any harm as long as you remember to mention that very little of The Bible has been verified and nobody knows if there is a God. It is paramount that you don't forget this.

Thank you for your input.

Hollywood and Religion

'Passion of the Christ' star Jim Caviezel says playing Jesus sunk his career
...............The staunch Roman Catholic recalled when Gibson first offered him the role of Jesus, he warned that it could end his career.

"(Gibson) said, 'You'll never work in this town again,'” Caviezel explained. “I told him, 'We all have to embrace our crosses.'”...................

"Jesus is as controversial now as he has ever been," Caviezel said. "Not much has changed in 2,000 years."...................



.

I just realized I haven't seen passion of the Christ. Should I?

I just realized I haven't seen passion of the Christ. Should I?

Do you like torture porn?

Morality evolved along with the propagation and flourishing of the inherently social and cooperative species known as homo sapiens.

Actually it's pretty clear it is has been going the other way.

I just realized I haven't seen passion of the Christ. Should I?

From Wiki...
** 2004
** It was mostly about the last 12 hours of his life.
** Grossed $600million
** Won 15 Awards
** Roger Ebert 4 out of 4 stars

It was pretty intense as I remember. and it tried to be very realistic.
..... "The film's dialogue is entirely reconstructed in Aramaic, Latin, and Hebrew with subtitles. "

I also remember the movie being very controversial at the time:
.....Pope John Paul II endorsed it
.....Jews were not happy with how they were portrayed in it.
.....Excessive Violence (think you have to see the Director's Cut for the scourging WHOA)
...........and of course historic accuracy (normal for movies)


BUT FOR ME, whenever I think about the movie, I remember the 10 minutes of scourging/flogging. Roman Cat of 9 tails with metal hooks? Super intense and gory. (smack-drag smack-drag ouch) In fact, I think you have to see the Director's Cut for that part. I do not even remember the rest of the story. It was that scourging that was pretty awful......definitely not girly stuff. lol

Come to think of it, my wife (who is super Catholic) probably has the DVD. I guess I should check it out again. I did not realize it had won so many awards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ




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Do you seriously believe without religion that people would have no reason not to murder each other?

I'm an atheist. Guess how many people I've murdered in my life.

I'm worried by the fact that you seem to think that the only reason people believe murder is wrong is because they are afraid some sky god will cast them into hell for eternity.

No no. You dont seem to get it. I know that we are imprinted with what is wrong and right to start with. Religion is nothing but man's rituals and has nothing to do with God. Almost all athiest have some major issue understanding that. If there was life just from random koas, which is hard for me even to write, then why on earth would one have to make laws about not killing or stealing. It wouldn't matter. It would never come to ones mind. I am almost 100% sure that no one reading this thread will switch "sides". I just try in my futile manner to let people know what "our" side thinks at least from my perspective. I don't think people who believe are better people. I think all people have nothing to offer more than dirty rags to God and the world. It is all just crap compaired to Jesus's life. No one on the planet could ever hold a candle to him, but we should all try.

For the record fwiw, I am a born again Christian of no church. It was just me and my life and a place I came to. I was at one point an athiest and said all the things that side says in these type of threads. I think I always believed in God, but I was just angry with how things had gone for me up to that point. I have had things happen in my life that I could never be convinced that were not signs of him being there in one fasion or another. I don't push my views on people. I don't judge people on the things that they do like the Christian anger mobs on TV which I think is a very small part of the actual God types.

I am pretty sure people will think I am an inbred mouth breather for saying these things, but I still stand by it and am fine with that risk.

Yeah, the reason people dont murder other people often is more out of social norms than anything else, and fear of punishment and retribution IN THIS LIFE, not the next.

You speak for everyone? Wow how did you get that job? I want an inteview. Why would that law come to be without a built in fear and knowledge of it being bad? Just curious.

You are not doing any harm as long as you remember to mention that very little of The Bible has been verified and nobody knows if there is a God. It is paramount that you don't forget this.

Thank you for your input.

Actually it is very historical and that is being shown more and more. If you ask people who believe to consider it could be wrong. I guess it is fair to ask if you do the same on the other side?

I disagree. The bible is not a very good source for history. It even contradicts itself. It even places Jesus himself in two completely different time frames. (From memory, I guess I should find the source).

Actually it is very historical and that is being shown more and more.

Please be careful with statements like this. The bible (esp. the Old Testament) is chock full of historical inaccuracies because IMO a lot of it is not supposed to be taken completely literally. For example, some things (Jesus's trial and execution) can be taken as factual, other things (Methuselah living 900+ years, the creation story), probably shouldn't be.

It even places Jesus himself in two completely different time frames. (From memory, I guess I should find the source).

Interesting. Source plz.

In their Nativity accounts, both the Gospels of Luke and Matthew associate the birth of Jesus with the reign of Herod the Great, who is generally believed to have died around 4 BC/BCE. But the author of Luke also describes the birth as taking place during the first census of the Roman provinces of Syria and Iudaea, which is generally believed to have occurred in 6 AD/CE.

From wikipedia.

No no. You dont seem to get it. I know that we are imprinted with what is wrong and right to start with. Religion is nothing but man's rituals and has nothing to do with God. Almost all athiest have some major issue understanding that. If there was life just from random koas, which is hard for me even to write, then why on earth would one have to make laws about not killing or stealing. It wouldn't matter. It would never come to ones mind. I am almost 100% sure that no one reading this thread will switch "sides". I just try in my futile manner to let people know what "our" side thinks at least from my perspective. I don't think people who believe are better people. I think all people have nothing to offer more than dirty rags to God and the world. It is all just crap compaired to Jesus's life. No one on the planet could ever hold a candle to him, but we should all try.

For the record fwiw, I am a born again Christian of no church. It was just me and my life and a place I came to. I was at one point an athiest and said all the things that side says in these type of threads. I think I always believed in God, but I was just angry with how things had gone for me up to that point. I have had things happen in my life that I could never be convinced that were not signs of him being there in one fasion or another. I don't push my views on people. I don't judge people on the things that they do like the Christian anger mobs on TV which I think is a very small part of the actual God types.

I am pretty sure people will think I am an inbred mouth breather for saying these things, but I still stand by it and am fine with that risk.

I was using religion and the concept of a higher power, or God, interchangeably. If you like, I will rephrase the question and ask, do you believe that without a God, there would be no reason not to murder each other?

Also, many other species live in cooperative social groups, like us humans. Do they have a God from which their morality is derived? That is, is there a lion god? or a chimpanzee god? or a killer whale god?