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chart for hand ranges in PLO

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realestate

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8 posts
Joined 02/2009

hi i'm a plo beginner and was just wondering if theres a hand range chart for plo. i still have some trouble with determining if my hand is actually good or not. thanks

Posted about 5 years ago

Oink

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787 posts
Joined 06/2007

I havent ever seen or heard of one and I dont think they are out there. Mind you the number of possible hands in omaha is so great its virtually impossible to make one.

Its also a pretty bad idea to follow one imo. PF in PLO is sooooo dependent on stacks and villains.

In some spots you can open virtually any 4 OTB and in other spots you need to tighten up significantly to below 50%.

CO ranges are also highly dependent on who is OTB. If there is a tight player OTB and one or two bad blinds you can prolly open as much as 40-50%. If you have a good player OTB and/or you are deep then you proly cant play much more than 15% and you should prolly consider openlimping

A final example is 3betting. Double suited junk plays pretty well in position against a wide range with not too deep stacks. But when stacks get deep they lose value fast because a PF 3bet wont make the SPR small enough. What hands to 3bet oop also depends greatly on stacks. Sufficiently deep against a good player you should prolly not even 3bet AAJTds.

Finally due to all the short stackers you need to consider your betsizing with not only open raises but also 3bets.


Personally I play a TAG style with some succes. I am 24/19 filtered for 5-6 handed and I open about 13% UTG, 20% in the HJ, 30% in the CO and 60% OTB. But as said PF is pretty dynamic so take it fwiw.

BTW at propokertools you can rank the hands, It was pretty instructional for me but again mind you that postflop obviously matters so the hand rankings measured by hot/cold equity will not be the same for various stack sizes and for being ip or oop

Posted about 5 years ago

delcrossb

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4267 posts
Joined 04/2009

In response to oink I would just say that what is more helpful than hot/cold equity is equity distribution on flops, which can also been seen on pro poker tools.

Posted about 5 years ago

delcrossb

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A final example is 3betting. Double suited junk plays pretty well in position against a wide range with not too deep stacks. But when stacks get deep they lose value fast because a PF 3bet wont make the SPR small enough. What hands to 3bet oop also depends greatly on stacks. Sufficiently deep against a good player you should prolly not even 3bet AAJTds.



Also...what? I respectfully disagree.

Posted about 5 years ago

Oink

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787 posts
Joined 06/2007

No reason to be respectfull Smile

But with what part?

Posted about 5 years ago

heh

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770 posts
Joined 02/2009

No reason to be respectfull Smile

But with what part?



Not 3 betting AAJTds when deep. You really want to 3 bet wider when deep for value.

If opponent is so darn good that you can't 3 bet AAJTds profitably vs him, you should table select better imo. Smile

Posted about 5 years ago

delcrossb

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As stack depth gets deeper we want to widen our 3betting ranges, not constrict them. Riverboatking does a pretty good job of showing just how crappy a hand can be to stick out a 3bet when we have position and stacks are deep. This also means we should widen our 4bet and in the rare case of super deep play our 5bet ranges. Just take a look at some of those massive pots in the durrrr challenge that start out with a 5bet preflop.

Posted about 5 years ago

Oink

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Well to be clear I did state when oop. It seems that wasnt clear. When ip I completely agree that we should widen our 3bet range as stacks get deeper.


I also did say "prolly". For two reasons: a) I am no authority on PLO and I didnt want to make it sound as if and b) PF in PLO seems pretty complicated to me still.


However, let me ask you guys this: A good regular opens OTB, SB folds and Hero is in the BB. Do you guys 3bet more or less with 300bb stacks compared to 100bb stacks? Because I certainly tighten up as stacks get deeper - assuming villain is good and knows how to exploit his position.


Also I'd like to be clear about my thinking. Assuming we can agree on our 3betting range getting smaller as we get deeper its not at all bad logic that eventually when stacks get sufficuently deep we should not 3bet at all. On the other hand it could certainly also be true that our 3betting range while getting smaller as stacks goes up would converge to some non empty range.

Posted about 5 years ago

delcrossb

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4267 posts
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Also I'd like to be clear about my thinking. Assuming we can agree on our 3betting range getting smaller as we get deeper



I do not agree with this. I think our 3betting range should get wider in or out of position. We want to be 3betting hands with a smoother equity distribution post flop though as opposed to highly polarized hands.

Moreover, if a good regular opens OTB and I am 300BB deep OOP I am 3betting more rather than less. What changes is the types of hands I 3bet. I will also 4bet/5bet more. Obviously if I am opening up my 3betting range OOP my 3betting range IP becomes huge 300BB deep. If I am flatting with all my hands I am pretty much always playing a small pot vs. stack depth and there is just no way to get stacks in when I flop something big.

The absolute value of a hand with respect to stack depth is not as simple a relationship as in NLHE. For example, AA is always good when stacks are shallow and gets progressively less valuable as stacks get deeper and deeper and deeper as 1 pair hands rarely stand in huge pots. This relationship is directly proportional to stack depth. This is not the case in PLO. Medium strength double suited junk plays decently with medium stacks but as stacks get deeper or shallower and peoples ranges increase and the polarity or nutty/connected character of their hands change these hands become less and less useful. Conversely a hand that has strong nuttiness/connectedness potential and low polarity become hands we want to play deeper and deeper. Highly polarized hands become extremely tough to play and are typically drawing to 2 outs. With greater than even 1PSB left a hand like KK72 fails to show a profit when an opponent with a hand with a smooth equity distribution gets to see a flop. Conversely with no effective stacks KK72r can shove into a 5678 double suited profitably all day.

Mostly though, there is essentially no stack depth where it is unprofitable to 3bet AAJT double suited. It's connectedness, nuttiness, suitnessed, and smoothness of equity distributions on flops is such that it is tough to find an SPR that hand won't like.

Posted about 5 years ago

orestto

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1427 posts
Joined 07/2009

I am probably not 3betting at all OOP against a solid regular 300 BBs deep. The key here is "solid regular". Someone who will always try to make your life hell by using position post-flop. If he's just a bit weaker than that, I'm 3betting the premium-est Aces and ds rundowns.

There's just not much need to be 3betting OOP 300 BBs deep. There's no hand I would be happy to play HU, OOP, in a bloated pot with deep stacks, against a solid regular. There's enough volatility in PLO as is, no real need to add the extra volatility 3betting OOP brings.

Posted about 5 years ago

orestto

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1427 posts
Joined 07/2009

Just look it at from the player in position's angle. You raise OTB 300 BBs deep with XXXX and a player from the blinds who covers you 3bets you.

When you call, you are now guaranteed to see a flop, in position, heads-up, with a lot of room to outplay your opponent post-flop. You can practically represent any hand you want. If you actually hit your hand, you're more likely to get paid now that the pot is bloated. You decide whether or not the last BIGGEST bet will go in. You can use any scare card to your advantage. You can use pot control much better than your opponent.

If I'm the player in position, I'm quite happy the OOP player has 3bet and I'm licking my chops. IMO, it's too hard to profitably 3bet a solid player OOP with 300 BBs+ stack.

Posted about 5 years ago

heh

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I am probably not 3betting at all OOP against a solid regular 300 BBs deep. The key here is "solid regular". Someone who will always try to make your life hell by using position post-flop. If he's just a bit weaker than that, I'm 3betting the premium-est Aces and ds rundowns.

There's just not much need to be 3betting OOP 300 BBs deep. There's no hand I would be happy to play HU, OOP, in a bloated pot with deep stacks, against a solid regular. There's enough volatility in PLO as is, no real need to add the extra volatility 3betting OOP brings.



You're going to lose a ton of value by not 3 betting hands that flop well (even oop). I am not advocating that you should start 3 balling double suited rundowns, but you can easily 3 bet hands like AQT9ds to balance it out. One thing to remember when playing deep is that ship ranges tighten up towards nut and near nut hands, so if you play hands that flop a lot nutty hands, you're in good position. Sure you'll have to b/f sometimes and good players -can- exploit position, but we need to get value out of our premium hands.

And yes, 3 balling against very good players when OOP is going to be tough, but we can't deduce from that scenario that 3 betting when deep OOP is bad per se.

Posted about 5 years ago

delcrossb

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Also to add to my last post I will say that it is a great idea to 3bet some highly polarized hands OOP because it is so easy to get away from those hands on the flop.

Posted about 5 years ago

Oink

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787 posts
Joined 06/2007

Awesome post! In particular the middle part. Very good and helpfull stuff!!

Thank you very much Sir

Edit: Didnt get it quoted. I meant delcrossb's post

Posted about 5 years ago




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