Poker Video: Pot-Limit Omaha by n0whereman (Micro/Small Stakes)

Deuce Island: Episode Seven

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Deuce Island: Episode Seven by n0whereman, delcrossb

N0whereman and delcrossb begin reviewing a 2-tabling video of delcrossb's play at shallow PLO.

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Twice the cards, twice the adventure! Similar to Ghost Ship: The Cracked Pearl, Delcrossb and n0whereman analyze each others' play in a series of ghost videos, discussing today's small stakes PLO games and a lot of bad engineering humor.

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n0whereman delcrossb deuce island plo pot limit shallow

Video Details

  • Game: plo
  • Stakes: Micro/Small Stakes
  • 53 minutes long
  • Posted over 3 years ago

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Comments for Deuce Island: Episode Seven

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DiggerTheDog

Avatar for DiggerTheDog

696 posts
Joined 09/2008

You should use the latest stars update for bet-sizing buttons.

You will find it in Main Lobby/options/betslider options down the bottom you can have 3 buttons which you can assign fractional values.

Its new but thought you might like to know

Posted over 3 years ago

delcrossb

Avatar for delcrossb

4262 posts
Joined 04/2009

When I made the video they didn't exist, but I am aware of them now and will probably check them out.

Posted over 3 years ago

DiamondDog

Avatar for DiamondDog

122 posts
Joined 03/2008

Thanks, Digger'.

Didn't know about that. Sounds useful.

Posted over 3 years ago

iwantmymtv

Avatar for iwantmymtv

25 posts
Joined 08/2008

Hey guys, before I come out with all the critics Smile I want to thank you for making this shallow play video.

However, even if you already apologized, I must say that I was expecting a little more hands. Especially that last hand, when making a lower stakes video, I feel like you don't have to go so indepth that you need to ramble 15 min about a hand that is really marginal and is probably an evenmoney scenario(correct me if I'm wrong) would you push or bet-fold.
What I mean is there is alot more to be learned, for me as a low/micro stakes player, about the general play strategy and flow of the game rather than these long, indepth analysis of one perticular hand. I know this is a good and analytical process from which you can gain alot too, but might be more useful at higher stakes game where most of the players have a solid understanding about the basics.

Another thing I have to comment about is the game strategy you are using in this session. Eventhough I don't disagree at all that you have an edge over the players, I find there is some controversy in talking about how you need to tighten your range when playing in shallow games and at the same time you're loosening your range massively. What I'm saying is, I don't have that edge, and it may be confusing distinct the hands that _I_ should be opening. However, this is a video made to teach us the basics on how to play in shallow stack tables, so I assumed. Therefore I would like to see more of that play.

Sorry for all the negative comments, but studying philosophy for years has made me very critical Wink I'm still anxious to see the upcoming video, thanks

-iwantmymtv

Posted over 3 years ago

delcrossb

Avatar for delcrossb

4262 posts
Joined 04/2009

Could you maybe time stamp where I said that tightening your ranges was necessary? I'd be happy to clarify what I meant.

I think that I was tightening up as a player specific adjustment, but opening very wide as a default strategy because of the extra value of stealing the blinds since the SPRs are lower going to the flop.

Again, sorry we ended up talking for so long about shallow PLO play. The format of the series was intended to be ghost video review but I felt like there was so much that I wanted to explain and not just gloss over strategy wise. A powerpoint might've been useful here.

Posted over 3 years ago

iwantmymtv

Avatar for iwantmymtv

25 posts
Joined 08/2008

I didn't mind the talk in the beginning at all actually, it was quite informative though I agree that a powerpoint would've been grat. I thought that the hands chosen later just got overanalyzed and that you could've covered alot more basic play rather than a few distinct hands.

I should've clarified that I mainly meant that tutors everywhere talk so much about tightening your range if you're going to shortstack, and that the edge comes from good starting hands. Especially when you said there were so many bad players at the table, I was expecting to see premium hands and tight play. I'm not arguing your default strategy is faulted, I'm just questioning if it is an optimal strategy to be shoving in the "first shortstack" video on DC. Mainly becouse this may advocate more mediocre players, me included, to starts playing hands we shouldn't necessarily yet be playing due to smaller edge.

Another thing, is it really that much more profitable to be trying to steal the blinds from bad players, when it gets us to so many awkvard spots and 40/60 flips? I can see if they are _really_ tight AND bad, but bad players tend to be on the looser side.

Posted over 3 years ago

delcrossb

Avatar for delcrossb

4262 posts
Joined 04/2009

"Good" starting hands in PLO is a relative term, since the value of hands increases and decreases based on stack depth. Notice that I play a KKKx hand twice in the two videos, which I would otherwise open fold if deep. Similarly early on a player plays QQ97ss out of the blinds and although he flops a set and gets stacks in, I'd say calling preflop is probably marginal or -EV in most situations.

With regard to stealing the blinds with weak hands, it didn't really put me in that many awkward spots. The only time I had an awkward spot was when I had a real, big hand and flopped moderately well (the AKJ9ds on J7x, which I assume is a hand you felt we talked too much about). A lot of situations where I flopped marginally or missed on boards I was just able to cbet and take it down, or check it down with some middle pair type hand and try to win at show down. Given that I was opening hands with SOME reasonable value, I was never going to be in a terrible spot. 50bb deep you never feel too bad about sticking it in with the NFD+something, for the most part.

I'd agree that this may not be the optimal first video for short stacking PLO on DC, but I think that is the result of a lack of focus. This was really just meant to be another ghost video but I attached extra importance to it by trying to explain short stack strategies. I think that I play short stacked PLO fairly well but the video was somewhat off the cuff and not intended to be a full primer on how to play short PLO. Maybe in the future if there is significant demand I can make a few vids on short stacking PLO.

I'm sorry if we were too chatty with the hands. Ep eight we do get through quite a few more hands. Hopefully you are still able to garner something from these vids. If I make short stacking vids in the future I will make an effort to get through hand discussions quickly.

Posted over 3 years ago

DiamondDog

Avatar for DiamondDog

122 posts
Joined 03/2008

One of the things I've always liked about DC is the way most of the coaches are more than happy to participate fully in the forums, responding to constructive criticism, providing further explanation where requested and generally helping us subscribers in ways other than just grinding out vids. Perfect example in this thread imo.

Posted over 3 years ago

iwantmymtv

Avatar for iwantmymtv

25 posts
Joined 08/2008

+1 I thank for the swift and thorough responses. I probably expected more than was reasonable or realistic to cover since this was after all a ghost vid. I'm still very pleased that you heard my voice when I originally requested for this topic in the forums of ep6, and I'm looking forward to see the upcomming vid. That said I'd like to request for a series of shortstack basics. Doesnt have to bee anything big but a few vids. I don't think there will be a too big of demand of this subject since it's such a hated play, but I hope you'll consider it. thanks!

Posted over 3 years ago

DiggerTheDog

Avatar for DiggerTheDog

696 posts
Joined 09/2008

+1 I thank for the swift and thorough responses. I probably expected more than was reasonable or realistic to cover since this was after all a ghost vid. I'm still very pleased that you heard my voice when I originally requested for this topic in the forums of ep6, and I'm looking forward to see the upcomming vid. That said I'd like to request for a series of shortstack basics. Doesnt have to bee anything big but a few vids. I don't think there will be a too big of demand of this subject since it's such a hated play, but I hope you'll consider it. thanks!


I agree.

Clearly it runs counter to the overall philosophy of DC founders to encourage or 'support' SS poker. But I think with the profileration of SS 20-50bb tables on stars being more and more widespread - and trending even more so ---> I think it is suprising that a comprehensive suite of series on PLO and NLHE SS strategy has not been produced.
Obviously you do not need to be a shortstacker or 20bb stack - to need a very good handle on 20bb strategy given if they are at the table thats your eff.stack size anyway.

Posted over 3 years ago

delcrossb

Avatar for delcrossb

4262 posts
Joined 04/2009


Clearly it runs counter to the overall philosophy of DC founders to encourage or 'support' SS poker.



I just don't think that is the case. I think that overall the DC founders would encourage you to do whatever is most profitable without doing anything unethical. There is nothing unethical about playing a short stack.

The point of DC however, is to teach people how to play poker through videos and community instruction. Playing short stack poker is not against that goal, the edges are just thinner and even though it may be profitable to short stack, it is difficult to provide a short stacking curriculum. Moreover the guys who short stack professionally tend to keep the info much more close to the chest, because they rely on thin edges to win money. The fact of the matter is that it is just a lot more interesting and provides better content to teach deep stacked games, IMO. The less stack depth, the less poker there is to be played and the less poker there is to be taught.

Also with the advent of the 20-50bb tables and the changes to the rakeback systems at FT and PS I think that short stacking is less frowned upon by the community. People used to get heated because it was annoying, but really I feel it just reflected their unwillingness or inability to adapt to different styles of play. Given that my favorite game is 10 game, I feel adaptability is important Smile. That said there is a lot less whining about short stackers and robo-grinders are much more able to just play their abc game without going on SS tilt.

Posted over 3 years ago

DiggerTheDog

Avatar for DiggerTheDog

696 posts
Joined 09/2008

I just don't think that is the case. I think that overall the DC founders would encourage you to do whatever is most profitable without doing anything unethical. There is nothing unethical about playing a short stack.

The point of DC however, is to teach people how to play poker through videos and community instruction. Playing short stack poker is not against that goal, the edges are just thinner and even though it may be profitable to short stack, it is difficult to provide a short stacking curriculum. Moreover the guys who short stack professionally tend to keep the info much more close to the chest, because they rely on thin edges to win money. The fact of the matter is that it is just a lot more interesting and provides better content to teach deep stacked games, IMO. The less stack depth, the less poker there is to be played and the less poker there is to be taught.

Also with the advent of the 20-50bb tables and the changes to the rakeback systems at FT and PS I think that short stacking is less frowned upon by the community. People used to get heated because it was annoying, but really I feel it just reflected their unwillingness or inability to adapt to different styles of play. Given that my favorite game is 10 game, I feel adaptability is important Smile. That said there is a lot less whining about short stackers and robo-grinders are much more able to just play their abc game without going on SS tilt.



Of course I accept the fact that
(a) Edges are thinner
(b) Not most profitable yadayada
(c) Pro Shortstackers keep secrets of their game.
(d) Some part of instructional site is to entertaining as well as informative.

I accept all of that.

But to suggest that DC attitude is not negative - come on del please - I have consumed a large part of DCs library - I think I am in some position to judge.
And really the proof is in the pudding.

How many SS PLO or NLHE videos are in the library of not just this site but most of the leading online training sites?

In just DC - I remember one BW Coaching tree 2 vid that had a cap player on - there is bustacap - and I think that is it apart from an occasional mention here and there.

Contrast that with what is actually happening on the two major sites..you and most of us are aware of the % of 20-50bb or shallow games running on the cash game section as a whole AND the further you go up stakes the greater the proportion of SS type games there are.

Now of the millions of hands I have played I would say <100k was 20bb either PLO or NLH - so its not as though I am a SS pushing my position.
But it just seems that 40% of games or more are SS type games - and yet there is no coverage.
Its kinda hard to know what ranges you should play when u game select to get a fish on a 20-50bb table but you have to also deal with either a fpp SS or a good SS.

Posted over 3 years ago

delcrossb

Avatar for delcrossb

4262 posts
Joined 04/2009

I would STRONGLY suggest you guys go post in the Video Imagination thread if you want more SS vids. I'll make 'em, you just need to show the interest is there.

I'm fairly certain that if the demand is there they will put up whatever sort of vid you want.

Posted over 3 years ago

Inepsyrrr

Avatar for Inepsyrrr

9 posts
Joined 01/2011

Time Link to 00:50:22

When you say "CALL" the flop is OK and check/fold turn if no more equity, what's the difference if we are deep now? I mean that finally you say that we have same plan deep & short in this spot.

Is this player was very passive? What about check behind to pot control? cause here I realize that we are in a mid-spr scenario even if we are short stack. Top pair with over two pair+ backdoor fd is good value to check behind i guess.

I take the opportunity to thanks you for the great videos you made always interesting ;-)

Posted about 3 years ago




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