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This thread should be banned, I can not play stars.

hi everyone,

i wanted to try something different.

i am a seasoned SSFR cashgamer and now i d like to learn MTTs. here i ve got some questions for you:

* are the 180mans a good place to start w MTTs at all?
* how do i learn those? (i have a copy of the nashequilibrium to get my push/fold game going.)

*how do you identify regs? (i dont seem to get a sample on villains at all)
*how do you classify them? (for CG i use stats and label them as nits, regs, lags, etc; do you better use their understanding / ranges of push/ fold here?)

yesterday i final tabled a 4.5$ game. everyone at the final table played (for my understanding) a decent game. the stats varied from 15/15 to 28/32. the overall 3bet was 10%+.
how do you create an edge under those circumstances? w/ only a few hands HUD sample and only 20-40 blinds to work with?
or is there no edge at all? (the edge coming from the inexperienced players, you happened to bust before to get there?).

if someone is interested in FR CG, i would be happy to offer some mutual coaching.
thanks,
torsten

hi everyone,

i wanted to try something different.

i am a seasoned SSFR cashgamer and now i d like to learn MTTs. here i ve got some questions for you:

* are the 180mans a good place to start w MTTs at all?
* how do i learn those? (i have a copy of the nashequilibrium to get my push/fold game going.)

*how do you identify regs? (i dont seem to get a sample on villains at all)
*how do you classify them? (for CG i use stats and label them as nits, regs, lags, etc; do you better use their understanding / ranges of push/ fold here?)

yesterday i final tabled a 4.5$ game. everyone at the final table played (for my understanding) a decent game. the stats varied from 15/15 to 28/32. the overall 3bet was 10%+.
how do you create an edge under those circumstances? w/ only a few hands HUD sample and only 20-40 blinds to work with?
or is there no edge at all? (the edge coming from the inexperienced players, you happened to bust before to get there?).

if someone is interested in FR CG, i would be happy to offer some mutual coaching.
thanks,
torsten

I have a couple of questions for you:
how well have you done at cash and why you want to got to mtts?
It seems like cash has greater potential (I prefer mtts though)
which site do you play on (180s I am guessing stars)
what is SSFR cashgamer (see I prefer mtts)
I am open to discussing these games with you for fun.

As for learning mtts I think you need to learn some of the fundamentals.
I learned mine on PokerPwnage on a few videos, it really helped my game. I dont know if they have some thing similar here on DC.
For example you dont want to open fold with 15 bb.
As far as your HUD I think it might be distracted you from getting a feel for the game. I can not imagine there is not an edge on a $4.50 180 man on the final table.
I think understanding what has recently happend is more important than just looking at your hud.
A lot of my edge comes from having a good feel for ranges and having a good feel how many of the players play. You need to put in some hours to get a feel for that. I sometimes play passive to induce bluffs, especially oop, to do this effectively you need to have a feel for the situation.
Learning that 3x open raising is bad as the mtt gets deeper is important.

I also think playing 9, 18, 27, 45 man sngs are a good idea. A large part of your edge in 180s will be your skill at the final table and those smaller sngs will help you a lot. Just being skill at heads up can raise your roi 10 to 25% at smaller buy in games.

Once you get a number of games down you will get a better feel for play and that is when I would start incorporating hud info into your game.

Ok enough rambling.

why you want to got to mtts?

to diversify for the most part.
also i have talked with a friend about the competition. we agreed, that on average the MTTs fields are the softest.

which site do you play on (180s I am guessing stars)

stars, right.

what is SSFR cashgamer (see I prefer mtts)

SmallStakes FullRing (50 - 200 NL, nothing special, but not thw worst either.)

I am open to discussing these games with you for fun.

thats awesome.

For example you dont want to open fold with 15 bb.

openlimp? is that what youre saying? i d never do that anyways.

As far as your HUD I think it might be distracted you from getting a feel for the game. I can not imagine there is not an edge on a $4.50 180 man on the final table.

in general there is for sure. i see a lot of weak players. not that time tho.

Learning that 3x open raising is bad as the mtt gets deeper is important.

even in FR cash games no one opens for 3bb in LP. my default open from the CO there is 2,5 and from BU 2,2.

I also think playing 9, 18, 27, 45 man sngs are a good idea. A large part of your edge in 180s will be your skill at the final table and those smaller sngs will help you a lot. Just being skill at heads up can raise your roi 10 to 25% at smaller buy in games.

to play those as an exercise is probably a good idea. still i have difficulties to get a sample in the 180s as i only 8-12 table them. more i cant handle at the moment.

thanks.

openlimp? is that what youre saying? i d never do that anyways.

I think he meant open and fold to a 3-bet with 15BB

even in FR cash games no one opens for 3bb in LP. my default open from the CO there is 2,5 and from BU 2,2.

Wow that's weird. In SSFR, you don't find people against whom you want to open bigger (high VPIP and high fold cbet for instance) ?

GL for the MTT

think he meant open and fold to a 3-bet with 15BB

that makes a lot of sense.

Wow that's weird. In SSFR, you don't find people against whom you want to open bigger (high VPIP and high fold cbet for instance) ?

for sure. still i had that discussion w a coach. when you open bigger, you will create more dead money, but the villain might also get more attached to the pot.
he statet that you can steal more often, when you make it smaller.
i am still undecided. :-)

GL for the MTT

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2,000(BB) Replayer
Hero ($47,180)
BB ($25,014)
UTG ($37,068)
UTG+1 ($31,860)
UTG+2 ($33,607)
MP1 ($28,979)
CO ($31,236)
BTN ($35,056)

Dealt to Hero J J

UTG raises to $36,868 (AI), UTG+1 calls $31,660 (AI), fold, fold, fold, fold,

hero?

final table of a 180man. the initial raizor plays a 30/20 game. the caller 20/15 showing a SN- status. he should def be strong.
we have a very strong hand, too. also we have 6 BB left, when we lose.

is this a good spot to gamble, or should we just fold and wait for even better situations?

one for the LOLZ:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $3,000(BB) Replayer
SB ($43,709)
BB ($87,280)
UTG ($77,215)
CO ($47,772)
Hero ($14,024)

Dealt to Hero 8 7

fold, CO raises to $9,000, Hero raises to $13,724 (AI), SB raises to $27,000, BB raises to $75,000, fold, SB calls $16,409 (AI)

FLOP ($111,042) A J Q

TURN ($111,042) A J Q 3

RIVER ($111,042) A J Q 3 K

BB shows K K
(Pre 16%, Flop 8.2%, Turn 0.0%)

Hero shows 8 7
(Pre 23%, Flop 25.6%, Turn 76.2%)

SB shows A A
(Pre 61%, Flop 66.2%, Turn 23.8%)

Hero wins $51,672
SB wins $59,370

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2,000(BB) Replayer
Hero ($47,180)
BB ($25,014)
UTG ($37,068)
UTG+1 ($31,860)
UTG+2 ($33,607)
MP1 ($28,979)
CO ($31,236)
BTN ($35,056)

Dealt to Hero J J

UTG raises to $36,868 (AI), UTG+1 calls $31,660 (AI), fold, fold, fold, fold,

hero?

final table of a 180man. the initial raizor plays a 30/20 game. the caller 20/15 showing a SN- status. he should def be strong.
we have a very strong hand, too. also we have 6 BB left, when we lose.

is this a good spot to gamble, or should we just fold and wait for even better situations?

I almost always call the first guy. The caller shows strength and with icm considerations I think folding is the best option. If you are weak in shorthanded play it might be worth it to go for big chip lead. If you had under 30k or over 65k in chips I think I call.

if utg range is 88+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+, utg+1 TT+,AQs+,AQo+ then your equity is 34% with the dead money makes it profitable call, but only marginally so i might fold for final table considerations.

one for the LOLZ:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $3,000(BB) Replayer
SB ($43,709)
BB ($87,280)
UTG ($77,215)
CO ($47,772)
Hero ($14,024)

Dealt to Hero 8 7

fold, CO raises to $9,000, Hero raises to $13,724 (AI), SB raises to $27,000, BB raises to $75,000, fold, SB calls $16,409 (AI)

FLOP ($111,042) A J Q

TURN ($111,042) A J Q 3

RIVER ($111,042) A J Q 3 K

BB shows K K
(Pre 16%, Flop 8.2%, Turn 0.0%)

Hero shows 8 7
(Pre 23%, Flop 25.6%, Turn 76.2%)

SB shows A A
(Pre 61%, Flop 66.2%, Turn 23.8%)

Hero wins $51,672
SB wins $59,370

You said previously you did not know where an edge was on final table. The co makes a huge mistake here.

First he opens for 3x he should be min raising or shoving with 16bb. With the hero at under 5bb he should not be opening light here. I dont totally hate a min raise fold but only on a relatively passive table but a 3x fold is unacceptable, but given the action you might fold hands you had planned on calling to a shove, that is why you must 2x to 2.2x open.

As for the hero call here I think it is very bad. I would rather shove any two utg than shove here. I want fold equity if I am going in as a dog. If you shove and every one folds it buys you time to actually catch a hand and double up. Also you had a chance for the some one to get knocked out here which moves you up on the icm ladder. I might call I had JTs or better or 55+

Hi Guys,

This hand below is just on the bubble of a 180 $8 final table, villian in the Sb is a winning reg Hero is bb
villian shoves... should hero call or fold?



Poker Stars $7.34+$0.66 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds + t200 - 6 players - View hand 1757725
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: t11641 M = 2.77
CO: t23189 M = 5.52
BTN: t10675 M = 2.54
SB: t53730 M = 12.79
Hero (BB): t25750 M = 6.13
UTG: t29261 M = 6.97

Pre Flop: (t4200) Hero is BB with Q J
4 folds, SB raises to t53530 all in

Final Pot: t5200

"villian" lol v.i.l.l.a.n obv!

It's a clear call. Against any 2 cards (which is what a winning reg pushes here againt a random player, especially on the bubble) you have 60% equity. If he sees you as a good reg as well he will most likely push tighter. But he will never be tight enough in this spot to make this a fold.

Even against a ridiculously tight range of any ace, any pair, any broadway you have 44.6% which is pretty much exactly what you need for a call (in reality it would be a fold because of ICM and edge). But as I said his range is much wider.

Hi just signed up but curious as to what your range is here?
Guys an average reg. Been pretty active at the table so far.

Poker Stars $2.28+$0.22 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds + t50 - 8 players - View hand 1758326
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t5435 M = 5.43
SB: t5249 M = 5.25
Hero (BB): t4395 M = 4.39
UTG: t1315 M = 1.31
UTG+1: t2572 M = 2.57
MP1: t13469 M = 13.47
MP2: t716 M = 0.72
CO: t2928 M = 2.93

Pre Flop: (t1000) Hero is BB with XX
4 folds, CO raises to t2878 all in, 2 folds, Hero calls ??

call qjs for sure
in the hand above prob with the info you have and no other info (other than your stack size, which would imo be correct to call a SLIGHTLY tighter range than a 10k stack (cause of losing fold equity if you call and lose etc) i would call like 22 a2s a5o k9s kto or something like that.

Poker Stars $7.34+$0.66 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds + t200 - 7 players - View hand 1791420
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t86567 M = 19.67
SB: t16756 M = 3.81
BB: t17273 M = 3.93
UTG: t51955 M = 11.81
UTG+1: t61342 M = 13.94
Hero (MP): t14408 M = 3.27
CO: t21699 M = 4.93

Pre Flop: (t4400) Hero is MP with 9 K
2 folds, [color=red]Hero ?

Its final table so there is ICM. What range do we shove here?

BTN is a very good reg. Don't know other players after me.

Poker Stars $7.34+$0.66 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t2000/t4000 Blinds + t400 - 3 players - View hand 1791421
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: t181720 M = 25.24
Hero (BB): t47039 M = 6.53
BTN: t41241 M = 5.73

Pre Flop: (t7200) Hero is BB with 4 A

1 fold, SB raises to t181320 all in, Hero ?

None of the opponents are reg , easy call? What range should SB shove if he is not shoving any two ?

ICM isn't that big with that many players and you have the shortest stack, I would shove a little wider due to maintaining fold equity etc too. I would probably shove like K6s Q9o Q6s J9s A2s A5o Q22 76s or something? Can go a little tighter/wider if you like, of course.

Fold hand 2. Like A7-8o A5s or something given they are both randoms. He should be able to shove ATC nash wise, a random is prob more on average of like 65

ICM isn't that big with that many players and you have the shortest stack, I would shove a little wider due to maintaining fold equity etc too. I would probably shove like K6s Q9o Q6s J9s A2s A5o Q22 76s or something? Can go a little tighter/wider if you like, of course.

Fold hand 2. Like A7-8o A5s or something given they are both randoms. He should be able to shove ATC nash wise, a random is prob more on average of like 65

I am still trying to get my 'eye' in on these 180s but I would push the K9o hand. Being the smallest stack here and doubling actually getting you some future fold equity I would be very willing to apply a large 'edge' so my default would be a bit wider, say K6o, K2s, Q8o.
edit: would have to get tighter if the field, especially the BB, were strong regs though.

I agree with the fold of the A4o hand, the ICM is still quite strong here (it is a little bit deeper than a 6 man bubble) using SnGWiz and guestimating at needing a large edge say 0.5% this suggests A8+,A5s,KT+ for the call. If it was the other similar stack in the SB it would be an easy call but you don't gain quite so much even when you do win against the big stack.

For future interest/possibly useful(?) the payout structures as the field narrows on the final table of 180s work out as:
2 left: chip ev, 100%
3 left: 69%,31%
4 left:: 58%.0 32% 10%
5 left: 53.5%,30.8%,12.3%,3.4%
6 left: 48.6%,29.2%,13.4%,5.8%,2.9%
7 left: 43.9%,27.3%,13.9%,7.5%,5.0%,2.5%
8 left: 41.1%,26.1%,13.9%,8.1%,5.8%,3.6%,1.3%
9 left: 38.3%,24.8%,13.8%,8.5%,6.5%,4.5%, 2.4%,1.2%

Yep those numbers are pretty useful for sure, hard to apply if not understood but it should give people an idea.

Poker Stars $3.19+$0.31 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t5000/t10000 Blinds + t1000 - 5 players - View hand 1869026
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: t174219 M = 8.71
Hero (CO): t204398 M = 10.22
BTN: t114944 M = 5.75
SB: t265485 M = 13.27
BB: t154454 M = 7.72

Pre Flop: (t20000) Hero is CO with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to t20000, 1 fold, SB raises to t40000, Hero ?

SB is unknown to me , i have 300 hand on him 17/16 and 3bet 12 but dont know his play. What does his min 3bet mean here ?