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40/80 flop/turn decisions

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OnTheRail15

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1344 posts
Joined 06/2008

Here's a hand I played in a casino. Game is full and very good. There are several very loose players whose play ranges from spazzy to passive. There are also a couple good players sprinkled around.

UTG+1 opens. He is generally extremely loose passive preflop until he loses a few hands. Then he becomes quite spazzy. He is always spazzy and bluffy postflop, although he also tends to miss value. He is tilting and so his range is nearly any two cards.

UTG+2 threebets. He is a very good player, and generally has a pretty nitty preflop. He also realizes UTG+1 is tilting and so his range here is very very wide. I know this. I'm not sure if he realizes that I know how wide his range is in this spot. He certainly knows that I know it's wider than usual. I would expect him to 3bet a fair number of hands he wouldn't open if it was folded to him in the same spot. Mostly suited connectors and weakish A highs.

I fourbet JJ OTB. Everyone else folds and they both call.

Flop: T73 I think rainbow although I'm not sure.

Checks to me. I bet. UTG+1 raises. UTG+2 calls in a way that makes me think he is somewhat weak. He also might be considering multiple options. I'm relatively sure he'd just go ahead and 3bet anything very strong here.

I decide to call and raise non T turns and maybe non 7 turns depending on how UTG+1 bets.
I'd certainly be open to arguments regarding 3betting. I certainly think there are some compelling arguments both ways
Turn: 9

UTG+1 bets. UTG+2 raises in rhythm. What do we do?

Posted over 2 years ago

Deepsquat

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667 posts
Joined 12/2007

Is it a 5b cap preflop? I dont play live, just trying to ascertain if UTG+2 can have bigger overpairs?

I think your flop play is correct/good btw.

Im not folding

Posted over 2 years ago

BigBadBabar

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4472 posts
Joined 03/2007

i wonder if a flop 3bet could induce a 4bet from the spazzy guy, which might force a fold from utg2 with something that has some equity (getting him to fold overs would be nice)

as played on the turn i would just coldcall i think

Posted over 2 years ago

OnTheRail15

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1344 posts
Joined 06/2008

Is it a 5b cap preflop? I dont play live, just trying to ascertain if UTG+2 can have bigger overpairs?

I think your flop play is correct/good btw.

Im not folding



4 bet cap but he'd never 5 bet anything in that spot if it was a 5 bet cap

Posted over 2 years ago

SIide

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2405 posts
Joined 12/2008

I think given your description of both players, we don't have much fold equity at all on the turn if we 3!, so I guess its just a question of if there's pure value in a 3-bet. Seems kinda close given UTG+2 probably has a reasonable amount of 1 pair hands here (What do you think UTG+2 does on the flop/turn with Tx or 7x?).

I do think we probably get both villains to make more mistakes against us if we just cold call, where as they probably play very well when we 3! against our actual hand. I think this makes me want to cold call here and is probably a good argument for cold calling with some stronger hands as well?

Posted over 2 years ago

Entity

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8633 posts
Joined 11/2006

I think given how nice it would be to get a 5 outer to fold here I'd 3-bet. There's a chance it freezes the action as well (and if it doesn't, you've still got 6 outs the majority of the time), so it might be one of very few situations where I'd FSDR or do something similar to it.

Rob

Posted over 2 years ago

DesertCat

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104 posts
Joined 12/2008

I have best hand on flop so I 3 bet for value, no need to be very sneaky in a big multiway pot I think.

And on turn why don't you try something you've never done before and fold to a turn raise?

JK, I think a call down is in order. Obviously raise river if you straighten, make a set, or if the trey pairs.

Posted over 2 years ago

OnTheRail15

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1344 posts
Joined 06/2008

I have best hand on flop so I 3 bet for value, no need to be very sneaky in a big multiway pot I think.

And on turn why don't you try something you've never done before and fold to a turn raise?

JK, I think a call down is in order. Obviously raise river if you straighten, make a set, or if the trey pairs.


That's the main reason to 3bet the flop, but we can also gain value on many turn cards and our relative position is perfect. Generally when I have two options that are pretty close, I try to choose the one that obscures my range as long as possible.

Posted over 2 years ago

OnTheRail15

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1344 posts
Joined 06/2008

I think given how nice it would be to get a 5 outer to fold here I'd 3-bet. There's a chance it freezes the action as well (and if it doesn't, you've still got 6 outs the majority of the time), so it might be one of very few situations where I'd FSDR or do something similar to it.

Rob


The obvious problem here is that we have to call a 4bet. Still certainly compelling.

Posted over 2 years ago

Entity

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8633 posts
Joined 11/2006

The obvious problem here is that we have to call a 4bet. Still certainly compelling.


This is true, but I think that you're being 4-bet very infrequently here, and putting in 1 extra bet here may actually allow you to see more showdowns, because of the implicit collusion that exists between UTG+1 and UTG+2 in this scenario. I'm not sure how concerned I should be about that, but with the possibility of it going 3-bet, 4-bet after I call and the possibility of it going bet-raise on the river, I'd feel comfortable (though not thrilled) about putting in the third bet here.

I'd actually vote that with JJ here another compelling reason to 3-bet is that, IMHO, it obscures your range here a bit more than calling. It feels like you've got 88, JJ basically with a call (maybe QQ?), whereas your range if you raise the turn is much more likely to be something like {sets, AA-JJ}. I haven't decided on that one though because I'm not sure what to do with QQ and KK here.

Rob

Posted over 2 years ago

SIide

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2405 posts
Joined 12/2008

I think given how nice it would be to get a 5 outer to fold here I'd 3-bet



Given Hero's description on UTG, why are we assuming he will fold a 4-5 outer on the turn, even occasionally, if we 3-bet? Seems overly optimistic.

Posted over 2 years ago

iplaylimit

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2426 posts
Joined 04/2007

Given Hero's description on UTG, why are we assuming he will fold a 4-5 outer on the turn, even occasionally, if we 3-bet? Seems overly optimistic.



Then he's still going to have to pay 2 bets to draw instead of one.

I also like 3bet turn

Posted over 2 years ago

Psychobingo

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1372 posts
Joined 03/2008

I think i like the idea of slowplaying until the turn because our range looks so overpair heavy once we 3bet this board after 4betting preflop, and will gain us more value than 3betting the flop and betting down will, assuming that the spazzy UTG wont check turns. Although, if we 3bet the flop and UTG 4bets, we might have UTG+1`s two small bets in on the flop and get him to fold, which would be fabolous, so its really close either way. On the turn, i would probably 3bet, although its again close because the UTG+1 shouldnt really be fsd-raising here too thin, and i`d assume he `d 3bet most of his 10x hands on the flop to try and shut you out, although thats a read thing. Coldcalling is unusual, and i guess would make our hand look alot weaker than it actually is? So best case scenario is that we call and call a blank river, and the good player has AT and the fish overcalls with worse and we scoop it, although its unlikely. Fwiw, i wouldnt raise anything but a J or 8 river, id rather try and get the overcall behind.

Posted over 2 years ago

Entity

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8633 posts
Joined 11/2006

Given Hero's description on UTG, why are we assuming he will fold a 4-5 outer on the turn, even occasionally, if we 3-bet? Seems overly optimistic.


It's not the primary consideration behind 3-betting, just one of the side benefits. It's a tough spot if you're holding a hand like KTs because JJ is actually at the bottom of the range you're up against.

Rob

Posted over 2 years ago

ThomasMagnumPI

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17 posts
Joined 10/2009

I think 3 betting the turn here is pretty bad, and the decision is actually between calling and folding.
Given OTR's slightly wider 4 betting range (still pretty narrow) and the fact that he's not c-betting this flop with UI over, his range on the turn is like 88+ Also given the fact, that I very seldom try to get good showdownable players to fold pairs, I can't imagine raising this turn (in villian's spot) with to many worse hands.

Posted over 2 years ago




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