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HU 3bet range construction

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marco

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730 posts
Joined 08/2010

Hi all,
If you are playing a villain who is calling 3bets more than GTO for a given bet size, do you still include bluffing hands in your range, or do you skew most of your range to value? Do you still 'bluff' K5s vs someone who is calling 'too' much, or do you just lower your value requirements, and 3bet down to QJ/QT/ etc for value?

**Assume villain is not super good post-flop in 3bet pots and crushing us with very aggro play vs our wide range.

Posted almost 5 years ago

direstraights

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2734 posts
Joined 12/2011

Do you even know what calling more than GTO is to begin with?

Posted almost 5 years ago

marco

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730 posts
Joined 08/2010

Do you even know what calling more than GTO is to begin with?



Thanks

Posted almost 5 years ago

undercover brotha

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221 posts
Joined 08/2012

milky159

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253 posts
Joined 06/2011

But do you even know what calling more than GTO is to begin with?

Posted almost 5 years ago

direstraights

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2734 posts
Joined 12/2011

Thanks



I'm getting to the point where I hate spoon feeding forum posters as much as Improva, but my point is that nobody knows what calling more than GTO is, everyone knows the number of hands we have to continue with in order to be unexploitable but we don't know how many of those hands we should 4bet, how many of those hands we should call and what % of hands there are between the number of hands we have to continue with in order to be unexploitable and GTO so using a vacuous term like "he's calling more than GTO" just immediately devalues your question because you're now using forum jargon with no clear understanding of what you're actually talking about yourself and no worthwhile definition for us to be able to understand you. You don't know what GTO is, I don't know what GTO is and nobody knows what GTO is, so it's pretty pointless to use it as a basis for poker play IRL.

If you need me to shovel it into your mouth, some players could be playing wider than what you believe is "GTO" and not actually be making a mistake because nobody knows what GTO is, what really matters are what his post-flop tendencies are like i.e. is he loose passive and what your position is. If villain is calling "more than he should," whatever that means, out of position then I'm still willing to use a polarized 3betting range as long as the bottom of the polarized 3betting range has high equity vs the opponent's range and post-flop playability in low SPR pots - I pretty much 3bet a polarized range from the button vs all players that are remotely competent up to like 200nl. If your opponent is just straight up terrible at poker, then just 3bet a linear range and value town him to death. If you're OOP and he has no clearly exploitable post-flop tendencies, then it's a pretty strict value range all the way.

Basically polar ranges are still ok in position vs players who call your 3bets OOP because of the equity position provides you post-flop where it'll probably be horrible OOP. In HU that pretty much translates to still 3betting a linear range unless he is the worst post flop player ever.

Posted almost 5 years ago

marco

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730 posts
Joined 08/2010

direstraights, Your responses are overly condescending and, for some reason, you want to argue semantics.

Just because we can't specifically define a GTO range, doesn't mean we can't say someone is on one side or the other of it. When we say "he calls too much" or "he's a calling station", we are saying that he is calling more than what I think is GTO optimal. They are synonymous.

Anyway, its hard to take your posts seriously when you present yourself this way.

Lets get this back on track, what i'm trying to get at is... if you think someone is calling your 3bets really wide at small stakes , do you immediately cut out all bluffs from your 3bet range? I do, and I keep them out until villain stops calling me wide. I will make this adjustment after just 2 3bets if i get called both times. I will keep re-adjusting until i get some reads or see some relevant showdowns. I may swing back and forth a few times depending on what i see.

Seems like the higher stakes pros keep bluffs in their ranges tho. I understand they need to balance all their ranges much more than at small stakes.

I'm just wondering how people think about this. I guess i don't think its important to keep bluffs in my range if I am getting called wide. Even if villain knows this, doesn't he have to stop calling me to use this information well? If he stops calling, i'll notice and his stats will change, so then i should re-adjust.

Posted almost 5 years ago

direstraights

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2734 posts
Joined 12/2011

There was nothing condescending about my original post, you interpreted it as such, and instead of thinking about my question you're the one who decided to be condescending.

The problem with using GTO, as opposed to calling station, is that GTO is an exact term being used inexactly where calling station is intentionally vague. It's about as useful as the people who confuse GTO with inexploitability, guilty, in the sense that even tho' you think you're talking about the same thing in truth you're really not. It's not an issue of semantics, it's about not taking definitions for granted.

If your opponent is raise/calling more than "GTO", then you should re-raise a linear range and widen your value range as necessary. If he is raise/calling "GTO," then you should re-raise a "GTO" linear range. If your opponent is raise/calling less than "GTO," then you should re-raise a linear range and tighten your value range as necessary (this is probably the only point I'm not certain of, I know you can't polarize your range but I'm not certain whether or not you should deviate from your strategy just because your opponent isn't maximizing his EV but remains unexploitable. I think there should be something better to do with the bottom of your range in that case). If your opponent is raise/calling less than the minimum threshold for inexploitability, then you should re-raise a polarized range. If your opponent is exploitable on the flop, i.e. he 4bets or raise/calls based on a hand chart but doesn't know how to play his range post-flop, then you should 3bet a polarized range because the equity of your bluff is deffered from pre-flop to post-flop

In a real world setting, pros still 3bet bluff at the onset of a match in order to establish a table image as an aggressive player and to understand how opponent's will react to their 3bets or when they've run cold in order to take advantage of a passive image, increased fold equity and try to regain the initiative in the match. Human beings are by their nature imperfect and irrational beings, so what should be "GTO" most likely doesn't resemble how we actually play or bother to take into consideration the meta factors that would encourage a player to 3bet ATC. It's also entirely possible that we're all "just that bad" even when we have position.

Posted almost 5 years ago

MERCI_PIGEON

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43 posts
Joined 03/2012

direstraights

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2734 posts
Joined 12/2011

GTO is unexploitable, not optimal.



GTO is unexploitable but being unexploitable isn't necessarily GTO, GTO is optimal by definition vs itself while exploitative play is maximal vs an exploitable opponent . Basically, your opponent can 4bet and call enough in order to be unexploitable vs your 3bets but that doesn't necessarily mean he's continuing enough in order to maximize his EV. We should be playing more than the pre-requisite 37.5% of hands in HU OOP, take Snowie for example.

As far as I understand, unexploitable is just unexploitable and GTO is both unexploitable and optimal. Being unexploitable is just a consequence of maximizing our EV,we shouldn't stop at just being unexploitable. I think that's right anyway, I can't claim to know for certain.

Posted almost 5 years ago

UU!I.I.4AAUU35

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2192 posts
Joined 07/2010

I think the answer to your question is generally to play a wide-ish linear range vs this type of player with no 3 bet "bluffs" as an exploitative adjustment. Also, maybe try a bigger bet size.

Posted almost 5 years ago




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