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Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (High Stakes)

Haven't watched this, but love the title of the vid!

Fnup and OTR!!!!! EPIC but we need more FNUP

Wow I watched the intro like 5 times in a row

I'd say that Kenny definitely had 7x in the blind battle hand, given you've shown a lot of strength and it looks like a spot where you will never fold

Fnup and OTR!!!!! EPIC but we need more FNUP

We need more of U too!

On the JT hand on the A93 1, we're getting a price based on our equity no? I peel there pretty often. We're getting 11-1 w/implied odds and I don't think affleck is popping the turn very often when we improve.

On the JT hand on the A93 1, we're getting a price based on our equity no? I peel there pretty often. We're getting 11-1 w/implied odds and I don't think affleck is popping the turn very often when we improve.

Time stamp?

On the JT hand on the A93 1, we're getting a price based on our equity no? I peel there pretty often. We're getting 11-1 w/implied odds and I don't think affleck is popping the turn very often when we improve.

Maybe... but the board is rainbow and the action went we bet someone raises and someone cold calls. It seems very likely that someone has an ace in which case we're facing terrible RIO as well as just having terrible equity in the hand.

What's the background story of the 22 hand? That's pretty hilariously epic.

What's the background story of the 22 hand? That's pretty hilariously epic.

Pretty sure the hand was made up, but fnupple is a beast so maybe not

I`ll never fold that Q9 hand, but i never fold and thats why i dont win any monies.

85s- 44mins, hero flops 2 pair on a monotone flop.

DD talked about what he would do if raised on the Ace river. My instinct was bluff/3bet. Do you think Tpirhana (solid thinking reg from memory) could ever let go of Aces up on the riv, given you would play all flushes and sets this way or is that just super optimistic?

His range has to be aces up exactly if he raise this riv

Assuming he knows you are a good thinking reg and would never 3bet a worse 2 pair here, which you wouldnt...

Just a thought

85s- 44mins, hero flops 2 pair on a monotone flop.

DD talked about what he would do if raised on the Ace river. My instinct was bluff/3bet. Do you think Tpirhana (solid thinking reg from memory) could ever let go of Aces up on the riv, given you would play all flushes and sets this way or is that just super optimistic?

His range has to be aces up exactly if he raise this riv

Assuming he knows you are a good thinking reg and would never 3bet a worse 2 pair here, which you wouldnt...

Just a thought

That's hyper animal. So I obviously like it.

Wow I watched the intro like 5 times in a row

Hey! Five in a row.

Time Link to 00:09:37

Great video. I'm pretty sure this series is going to be thoroughly awesome.

The AJ on KT995 hand (http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/989-Episode-One?seek=577): At first glance I thought there were enough whiffed draws to make this a call, but looking at the combos, I think there just aren't enough hands for him (her?) to bluff.

There are only 19 unpaired combos in a typical CO range that are not ace high. Getting 6.5:1 you need them to be value betting fewer than 124 combos. There are about 108 combos of JJ+ which I'd assume he always value bets. There are 33 combos of Tx, and 36 underpairs to the 9. So if he's value betting any pair here, then it's a pretty clear fold, unless he's also bluffing Ax. To make it a call I think he needs to value bet Tx less than half the time, or frequently turn Ax into a bluff.

Time Link to 00:34:57

The Q9s hand.. What about him having Q2-Q8? We beat those and he would check most of those Queens preflop. Combined with the possibility of him having a SD I think I call but its def close and we obv lose most of the time.

Edit: ah damn you mention that a min later ^^

The Q9s hand.. What about him having Q2-Q8? We beat those and he would check most of those Queens preflop. Combined with the possibility of him having a SD I think I call but its def close and we obv lose most of the time.

Edit: ah damn you mention that a min later ^^

Yeah, I think there are a ton of straight draw combos in his preflop checking range. 98 he probably raises often, but 96, 86, 84, 64, 63, 43 are 15 combos each. Even if you discount the gutshots, there are still 30 OESD combos. There are only 86 combos of 7x, and that includes A7, K7, all the suited 7s. Getting 8:1 on the river, he needs to be raising the turn with only like 10% of his straight draws to make this a call. That's ignoring flushes, flush draws, Qx, and 5x, which combine to weight it more towards a call, imo, although they may just wash each other out.

Pretty sure the hand was made up, but fnupple is a beast so maybe not

Why would it be made up? Seems like a standard brocathmel hand from the old Party Poker days.

This is Kenny from the video. I think that DeathDonkey and OTR analyzed the hand well after the fact and JayBeastie and GiantBuddha pretty much covered it in the comments.

FTR, I do know that DD likes to limp/call with a lot of his hands BvB and knew that at the time of the hand. I also knew that he would c/r a pretty balanced range (mixing in air, pairs, and draws) in order to protect those limps and as such I would be playing a significant number of my draws with no showdown value in this same manner. I think that folding any Q there is pretty bad, but especially one as strong as Q9.

On the river, if I have air, I basically haaave to fire. DD can have missed flush draws, missed straight draws, K highs, etc. If you add your Q's to your folding range, it makes it waaaaaay too wide, imo. On the AJ call-down hand, you guys basically called down because you had one of the only hands in your call-down range. If you aren't calling down Q9 on a Q7575 board Blind vs. Blind what are you actually calling down with?

Anyway, I can reveal what I had whenever DD or OTR gives me the Ok.

P.S. Great video. I only wish that my 99 check can be edited to a bet. What an awful missed v-bet that was.

Time Link to 00:19:37

Maybe... but the board is rainbow and the action went we bet someone raises and someone cold calls. It seems very likely that someone has an ace in which case we're facing terrible RIO as well as just having terrible equity in the hand.

Even vs. 2 killer ranges (33, some 9's and non-3betting aces, in SB and that range - the 9's) we've still got over 9% equity. The RIO is really only there vs. AJ/AT and sets (not a big chunk of anyone's range given pf). My big concern is % chance BB is raising the turn because it eats some of our peeling opportunities. That being said he needs 33 or Ax that 2 pairs to be raising the turn so we probably are only getting raised 7 - 10%.

Making joe happy w/time stamp.

Lol - in the Q9 hand my inernet lagged as the turn card dealt and my immediate thought was "wtf river can you possibly fold?" then the 5 bings off haha. I don't fold there in a blind battle when he can put you on a wide range and straight draws missed and such. But I'm really curious how my WTSD in those spots is doing over a huge sample.

43min:13sec:
XR A6o on 34Tr board. Can you explain the bluff here to me?

It seems to me that you still have enough equity to actually see a turn than to turn your hand into a total bluff?
Also, cc SB range pretty much beats you and he already called the c-bet.
It's just so unconventionally DeathDonkey-ish, who peels lotsa flops with these types of hands (+better) to turn these hands into a bluff?
Also OTR's comment was funny: "yeah, you're getting him to fold... uh... I don't know, what are we targeting?"

Even vs. 2 killer ranges (33, some 9's and non-3betting aces, in SB and that range - the 9's) we've still got over 9% equity. The RIO is really only there vs. AJ/AT and sets (not a big chunk of anyone's range given pf). My big concern is % chance BB is raising the turn because it eats some of our peeling opportunities. That being said he needs 33 or Ax that 2 pairs to be raising the turn so we probably are only getting raised 7 - 10%.

Chuck we're talking about having JTdd on the Ax9d3x board right? I'm pretty much incapable of folding pairs so I personally do have RIO in that spot

This is Kenny from the video. I think that DeathDonkey and OTR analyzed the hand well after the fact and JayBeastie and GiantBuddha pretty much covered it in the comments.

FTR, I do know that DD likes to limp/call with a lot of his hands BvB and knew that at the time of the hand. I also knew that he would c/r a pretty balanced range (mixing in air, pairs, and draws) in order to protect those limps and as such I would be playing a significant number of my draws with no showdown value in this same manner. I think that folding any Q there is pretty bad, but especially one as strong as Q9.

On the river, if I have air, I basically haaave to fire. DD can have missed flush draws, missed straight draws, K highs, etc. If you add your Q's to your folding range, it makes it waaaaaay too wide, imo. On the AJ call-down hand, you guys basically called down because you had one of the only hands in your call-down range. If you aren't calling down Q9 on a Q7575 board Blind vs. Blind what are you actually calling down with?

Anyway, I can reveal what I had whenever DD or OTR gives me the Ok.

P.S. Great video. I only wish that my 99 check can be edited to a bet. What an awful missed v-bet that was.

I mean... I keep going back and forth on the fold in my head. Yes I think it's pretty bad from an exploitablitity perspective, but I wonder how often we're beating value bets in this particular spot? My guess is that we aren't actually beating too many of them as Q6- probably aren't doing well enough against our continuing range to raise the turn in general...

That siad there are those pesky straight draws. I think what it might come down to is how often you're waiting for the turn with flopped flush draws vs. picked up flush draws, which made a flush...

On the whole I wish we had called in that spot, and I'd love to know what you had in that spot in this particular instance.

Thanks Kenny

Agree with OTR and thanks for posting Kenny, happy to hear results if you want to share!

43min:13sec:
XR A6o on 34Tr board. Can you explain the bluff here to me?

It seems to me that you still have enough equity to actually see a turn than to turn your hand into a total bluff?
Also, cc SB range pretty much beats you and he already called the c-bet.
It's just so unconventionally DeathDonkey-ish, who peels lotsa flops with these types of hands (+better) to turn these hands into a bluff?
Also OTR's comment was funny: "yeah, you're getting him to fold... uh... I don't know, what are we targeting?"

I wouldn't call this a bluff so much as a overrepresent my hand and get him to fold a similar quality hand or a hand with too many live outs to fold if he could see my cards. It's just a spot where we are definitely continuing and given the third player we might be able to get the PFR to make a mistake against our hand, and every now and then he even folds a better hand than ours.

I'd say that your average 30/60+ player is going to wait for the turn to raise with either a flush draw or straight draw way too often here for it to even matter if you beat any of the hands in their value range.

And here you beat all of my queens and possibly something I was FSDR and am now turning into a bluff (44 or something).

I think that the main factor that widens my range is the number of straight draws that DD can have in his c/r flop, bet turn range here. If I have something with decent equity and no showdown value, it's a pretty decent spot to re-bluff in a pot that grew quickly.

But with all that said, I had 79o for the binked 2-outer and you saved a bet. So I could be wrong and you have a disgusting read on me or something.

I'd say that your average 30/60+ player is going to wait for the turn to raise with either a flush draw or straight draw way too often here for it to even matter if you beat any of the hands in their value range.

And here you beat all of my queens and possibly something I was FSDR and am now turning into a bluff (44 or something).

I think that the main factor that widens my range is the number of straight draws that DD can have in his c/r flop, bet turn range here. If I have something with decent equity and no showdown value, it's a pretty decent spot to re-bluff in a pot that grew quickly.

But with all that said, I had 79o for the binked 2-outer and you saved a bet. So I could be wrong and you have a disgusting read on me or something.

Gosh we play so good...

Serious question for you Kenny: are you raising your worst Qs on the turn in this spot? What's our range of hands that you gain an extra bet of value from (ie not draws) and is that range large enough to make raising with Q2 correct?

Gosh we play so good...

Serious question for you Kenny: are you raising your worst Qs on the turn in this spot? What's our range of hands that you gain an extra bet of value from (ie not draws) and is that range large enough to make raising with Q2 correct?

If I did raise a queen in this spot, the weakest one would be Q6, where the kicker plays (I usually won't raise it). So that leaves "maybe" a raise with Q8, or, effectively, no queens in my turn raising range (bigger queens raise preflop). So I agree with the hand reading in the video that turn raise + river bet is either a 7, a backdoor flush, or air, because I would never expect DD to fold a queen on the river and I would have to consider the majority of DD's flop check-raise range for value to be queens and sevens.

Time Link to 00:06:49

This is a spot where I often find myself calling hoping that he'll barrel the river UI, but I'm beginning to think that raising is the better play.

Really, once the ace hits, the only hands that I'm going to be calling with that I didn't raise the flop are Ax and maybe some pocket pairs that I either was waiting for the turn or were babies like 44.

I think that any thinking villain realizes that you're not peeling this turn lightly at all, and he'd have to be pretty dumb to bet this river with QJs or whatever we're hoping him to barrel with. You both agreed that c/f was the play he should have made on the river even after he made a pair of 5's. So, in reality, we shouldn't really be getting any more value out of our hand if we're ahead by calling down unless he happens to have TT-KK.

That being said, people at the mid stakes games (I can't speak for 30/60 since I don't play that high ) definitely bluff raise a turned ace with some frequency. I don't think it matters so much whether YOU bluff raise this card, as long as the villain knows that it happens sometimes. It's a spot where you would have to have a few thousand hands with the guy at 6max before he'd have that kind of read.

So raising the turn and barreling the river definitely has merit, imo. It's an exploitative play that takes advantage of the "zomg calldown" attitude that a lot of the regs (including myself) seem to have. Villain will call down with any pair usually, and sometimes even KJ/KQ, and it's a spot where you can very comfortably lay your hand down to a raise at any point.

Nice post VUcats, a lot of stuff I agree with in there looking at the hand again.

Gosh we play so good...

Serious question for you Kenny: are you raising your worst Qs on the turn in this spot? What's our range of hands that you gain an extra bet of value from (ie not draws) and is that range large enough to make raising with Q2 correct?

Well, I'd rather not get toooo far into my full strategy for playing against DD, but I don't think he's 3-barreling on this board with as many bluffs as most 30/60+ players so that along with a couple other issues with my overall approach made me more apt to raise my medium strength value hands on the turn.

Time Link to 00:05:17

Edit: I thought I put in a time stamp. But its early. A few minutes before VUCats time stamp

The AA hand where you 3bet in the SB against UTG open and UTG+1 cc.

You talk about going for a sexy on a J234 rainbow turn. To be honest I find this rly bad. OTR talks about balance which I agree on but even in a vacuum its quite bad imo.

You have shown so much strength and villain didnt raise the flop even tho he had a chance to protect his hand should he have a pair.


So basically your range is rly strong and his range is rly week. With the wheel draw out there there is no chance he is folding Ax and he is peeling KQ as well. When considering the ranges its quite unlikely he bets if you guys check.

Its definetely FPS to go for a c/r against sane villains there!! Against a aggro donkey I like it tho


Edit: Another way to think about this:

I MoP a lot if not all the examples are dealing with symetric ranges. Ie they analyse spots where hero and villain has equally strong ranges. But if we consider a spot where hero's range is uniforly distributed from 0.9 to 1 and likewise villain's range is distributed from say .4 to .5 then its pretty easy to find the eq (or GTO) strategies. Hero (who is oop) should bet his entire range and villain should call those of his hands which has the odds to peel in order to improve over a sufficiently large part of heros range.

This is quite easy to verify: Should hero opt to check and should villain opt to bet some or all of his hands then the optimal response for hero is to call his entire range since his worst hand beats the best possible hand villain can have. Since the optimal response for hero is to never fold the optimal play for villain is to check his entire range should hero check.


Now in the AA hand it can certainly be argued that hero's bottom end is worse than villains top end. Hero can have KQ and villain can have some Ax. But the part of hero's and villain's ranges which overlap is quite small. Villain maaay have AQ and could certainly have a bunch of A hi hands and weak. Hero's worst hand should be KQs or maaaybe KQo.


So I know this is quite a long rant but I find it quite important to understand. Cliff notes: Going for a turn sexy c/r with AA is bad against sane opposition because villain needs to play pretty far of the equilibrium path in order to bet with a sufficiently high frequency for c/r > bet

/Oink

Time Link to 00:19:26

I hope the time stamp works now!

The T9s hand where you bet/3bet KJJ flop with a fd and end up "vbetting" the KJJJA river.

No way in hell you have a vbet here. Seems like a c/f to me or a bluff bet to make a bad handreader fold small pp's

Pretty good video overall. It worked rly well and as usual DD is just getting in soooo many good points because he talks so fast.

OTR seemed rly solid/expert and explained himself very well. One of the better LHE vids I have seen in a while!

I hope the time stamp works now!

The T9s hand where you bet/3bet KJJ flop with a fd and end up "vbetting" the KJJJA river.

No way in hell you have a vbet here. Seems like a c/f to me or a bluff bet to make a bad handreader fold small pp's

To clarify for others we made flush on the river with the ace on a 3 club board. Yeah this was a tough spot given we were doing a live play video and I didn't want to time way down and get raised

So you like the turn bluff but like check/folding when we make the flush? You are right that its a bad value bet given the guy has to fold a bunch of his flush draws on the turn card that came, which I didn't recognize at the time.

Thanks for the long math post btw, I think you are right and just was overly fancy in that spot

Edit: I thought I put in a time stamp. But its early. A few minutes before VUCats time stamp

The AA hand where you 3bet in the SB against UTG open and UTG+1 cc.

You talk about going for a sexy on a J234 rainbow turn. To be honest I find this rly bad. OTR talks about balance which I agree on but even in a vacuum its quite bad imo.

You have shown so much strength and villain didnt raise the flop even tho he had a chance to protect his hand should he have a pair.


So basically your range is rly strong and his range is rly week. With the wheel draw out there there is no chance he is folding Ax and he is peeling KQ as well. When considering the ranges its quite unlikely he bets if you guys check.

Its definetely FPS to go for a c/r against sane villains there!! Against a aggro donkey I like it tho


Edit: Another way to think about this:

I MoP a lot if not all the examples are dealing with symetric ranges. Ie they analyse spots where hero and villain has equally strong ranges. But if we consider a spot where hero's range is uniforly distributed from 0.9 to 1 and likewise villain's range is distributed from say .4 to .5 then its pretty easy to find the eq (or GTO) strategies. Hero (who is oop) should bet his entire range and villain should call those of his hands which has the odds to peel in order to improve over a sufficiently large part of heros range.

This is quite easy to verify: Should hero opt to check and should villain opt to bet some or all of his hands then the optimal response for hero is to call his entire range since his worst hand beats the best possible hand villain can have. Since the optimal response for hero is to never fold the optimal play for villain is to check his entire range should hero check.


Now in the AA hand it can certainly be argued that hero's bottom end is worse than villains top end. Hero can have KQ and villain can have some Ax. But the part of hero's and villain's ranges which overlap is quite small. Villain maaay have AQ and could certainly have a bunch of A hi hands and weak. Hero's worst hand should be KQs or maaaybe KQo.


So I know this is quite a long rant but I find it quite important to understand. Cliff notes: Going for a turn sexy c/r with AA is bad against sane opposition because villain needs to play pretty far of the equilibrium path in order to bet with a sufficiently high frequency for c/r > bet

/Oink

This post is sexy on so many levels. Thanks Oink.

Rob

I hope the time stamp works now!

The T9s hand where you bet/3bet KJJ flop with a fd and end up "vbetting" the KJJJA river.

No way in hell you have a vbet here. Seems like a c/f to me or a bluff bet to make a bad handreader fold small pp's

This is a hand I thought would inspire more discussion on the forum... I really think that you're right here and the value bet is bad; however, I do like the bet as a bluff in this spot (against a bad hand reader of course)... Against a better player, I do think c/f is best in retrospect, but against a better player I wonder if we should be playing the hand so aggressively on the flop and turn.

This is something I've been thinking about a ton lately. The way a lot of players, even decent->good players play draws in lhe is this: they take their draws that can win at sd and play those passively and usually show down (A K high flush draws, big straight draws, even hands like A high with overcards to a bunch of villains range). They also take their draws that can't win at sd and play them aggressively, semibluffing flop, turn, and sometimes bluffing rivers.

This is good and correct.

There is, however, a third class of draw, I think, that falls right between these two. I like to think of these as semi-showdownable draws. Basically these are the draws that don't have enough equity at showdown where we can call the river and also don't have enough fold equity against better hands in our opponents range to semibluff at any point in the hand... I think we should be c/c c/c c/f these hands even though most decent players end up semibluffing with them.

I wonder if T9cc, for all of it's equity in this spot, is one of these hands... all of this is predicated on a strong opponent who can read hands well. But it's something I've been thinking about lately, and maybe something to consider in this spot.

Pretty good video overall. It worked rly well and as usual DD is just getting in soooo many good points because he talks so fast.

OTR seemed rly solid/expert and explained himself very well. One of the better LHE vids I have seen in a while!

Thanks I'm glad you liked it!

Time Link to 00:20:42

When Housemom raises UTg+1 and you have AA in the BB are you still 3 betting pre if the SB didn't CC or are you calling and c/r the flop?

When Housemom raises UTg+1 and you have AA in the BB are you still 3 betting pre if the SB didn't CC or are you calling and c/r the flop?

Pretty perfect spot to just call, vs an early position raiser from a spot we won't be 3 betting a wide range of hands.

This is a hand I thought would inspire more discussion on the forum... I really think that you're right here and the value bet is bad; however, I do like the bet as a bluff in this spot (against a bad hand reader of course)... Against a better player, I do think c/f is best in retrospect, but against a better player I wonder if we should be playing the hand so aggressively on the flop and turn.

This is something I've been thinking about a ton lately. The way a lot of players, even decent->good players play draws in lhe is this: they take their draws that can win at sd and play those passively and usually show down (A K high flush draws, big straight draws, even hands like A high with overcards to a bunch of villains range). They also take their draws that can't win at sd and play them aggressively, semibluffing flop, turn, and sometimes bluffing rivers.

This is good and correct.

There is, however, a third class of draw, I think, that falls right between these two. I like to think of these as semi-showdownable draws. Basically these are the draws that don't have enough equity at showdown where we can call the river and also don't have enough fold equity against better hands in our opponents range to semibluff at any point in the hand... I think we should be c/c c/c c/f these hands even though most decent players end up semibluffing with them.

I wonder if T9cc, for all of it's equity in this spot, is one of these hands... all of this is predicated on a strong opponent who can read hands well. But it's something I've been thinking about lately, and maybe something to consider in this spot.

I know I'm late in the game with this video series, but just watched it now and followed this discussion. Not only was the video excellent, but this post above and some of the others in this thread cover the $$$ paid for my DC subscription in one go.