Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (High Stakes)

Here is BBB's original vid: http://static.deucescracked.com/BBB_Leap_2_Vid.wmv

Great stuff guys. The blind v blind discussion was particularly good. I kept waiting to see my note but no such luck. Maybe next video.

Great intro!

Time Link to 00:07:19

I feel like this is a good concept that changes when you move to higher stakes. I would never peel here unless I can raise atleast some improvement on the turn. It would just put way too much of my range to just calling down rather than making myself hard to play against. When you move to higher stakes against tougher regs you need to be putting them to tough decisions when a jack comes with TT and worse hands because when you want to win unimproved you are just going to have no chance.

Here is BBB's original vid: http://static.deucescracked.com/BBB_Leap_2_Vid.wmv

thanks Rusty!

to clarify, this is the video of my play that this episode (The Leap 2) is taken from. We didn't get through all the footage in the video -- only about half or so. So this will have some extra stuff in it.

Time Link to 00:00:33

Love the vid already

Time Link to 00:08:44

How about calling the turn when we hit and raising a non-ace river?

How about calling the turn when we hit and raising a non-ace river?

I think you are talking about the QJ hand / peel on king high board discussion? I think your line is much much worse than raising turn because we are trying to get a thinnish value raise in on turn to protect our semibluffs. We will often be in bad shape against his triple barrel range and not want to raise river, and he will check to us the times we are good a lot, so we end up missing out on 1 BB.

I think you are talking about the QJ hand / peel on king high board discussion? I think your line is much much worse than raising turn because we are trying to get a thinnish value raise in on turn to protect our semibluffs. We will often be in bad shape against his triple barrel range and not want to raise river, and he will check to us the times we are good a lot, so we end up missing out on 1 BB.

I think I see what you mean. Sorry if it sounds too basic, but I'd like to understand better. So basically, it's much better to raise the turn with the QJ hand on K87J because:

1- We get thin value immediately, whereas he might check the river if we don't,
2- We balance our turn semibluff range, increasing our overall semibluff success since they become more credible,
3- If we call turn and raise river and he calls, we probably had the worst hand.

Does this mean we're taking a free showdown when he calls our turn raise? 4 BB would go in post flop otherwise.

Time Link to 00:52:52

I think we need to either 3 bet like DD said or at least cc. The pot is getting kinda big with a bad player who ol. It is also very easy to play our hand in such spot. I hate a fold /w 55. 22,33,44 is close.

I think I see what you mean. Sorry if it sounds too basic, but I'd like to understand better. So basically, it's much better to raise the turn with the QJ hand on K87J because:

1- We get thin value immediately, whereas he might check the river if we don't,
2- We balance our turn semibluff range, increasing our overall semibluff success since they become more credible,
3- If we call turn and raise river and he calls, we probably had the worst hand.

Does this mean we're taking a free showdown when he calls our turn raise? 4 BB would go in post flop otherwise.

No, we bet river. That's precisely the point. If we raise turn and bet river we get called by a lot of hands that would probably check/call river if we just call turn. We will win more $ the times we raise turn and bet river and get called down, than when we call turn raise river and get called, that's for sure.

We're probably also firing once more with our missed semibluffs, since the pot is so big and we're getting a good price on our bluff. So betting again for thin value gives us some balance here. And we'll be betting when our semibluffs get there, obviously.

We're probably also firing once more with our missed semibluffs, since the pot is so big and we're getting a good price on our bluff. So betting again for thin value gives us some balance here. And we'll be betting when our semibluffs get there, obviously.

Thanks for anticipating my next question.

Great stuff, BBB and DD.

Time Link to 00:35:39

So I'm going back and forth with this one and somehow feel like I'm leveling myself here.

Turn 6c on a 5sKd2c board and we have Q5.
He checks to us.

When DD suggests bet, you're trying to get value from a deuce and protecting his 6 outers or is it simply to throw him off our actual hand?
What would you do in this situation with a hand like A2, A3, A4, 33, 44?
And since you said we call our kings on the flop here, what would you do on the turn with a hand like K3, K4?
It's just so weird with Q5, because it is that right in between spot...

Time Link to 00:52:07

reasons for betting A4 on 247 6 2 board?
I don't think there's enough value, tbh.

Also, thoughts on just raising flop for value? I mean, perhaps I'm being results oriented, since I saw him check the turn.

Interesting series, the dual commentary stuff is where DC really crushes. I'd probably watch if DD and BBB set up a dual commentary series on cricket.

One technical note, it would make it easier for someone who doesn't regularly 4+ table if Hero's cards were not half hidden under HUD stats.

bellatrix, I don't see how the A4 on 24762 could be not bet. Hero has the best hand always (ok I give 1% for villain havina a 2) and is closing the betting for the hand.

bellatrix, I don't see how the A4 on 24762 could be not bet. Hero has the best hand always (ok I give 1% for villain havina a 2) and is closing the betting for the hand.

Agree that Hero often has the best hand, but that hand is not gonna get called often except by stuff that beats us - is he really c/c-ing the two big streets with A-high?
I mean, betting so that villain can't see our holecards and maybe freerolling might be some valid arguments, I just think they are about equal in chance than villain playing a 2 that way for a c/r.

Agree that Hero often has the best hand, but that hand is not gonna get called often except by stuff that beats us - is he really c/c-ing the two big streets with A-high?
I mean, betting so that villain can't see our holecards and maybe freerolling might be some valid arguments, I just think they are about equal in chance than villain playing a 2 that way for a c/r.

He will level himself enough of the time to make it a bet imo

I don't think its really right in between, we have the nuts a lot, but he will have random outs, I think all those hands except A3 and A4 are bets.

I think we need to either 3 bet like DD said or at least cc. The pot is getting kinda big with a bad player who ol. It is also very easy to play our hand in such spot. I hate a fold /w 55. 22,33,44 is close.

Yeah definitely agree should be a 3bet. I think a coldcall might be kinda bad actually because of the shorty.

One technical note, it would make it easier for someone who doesn't regularly 4+ table if Hero's cards were not half hidden under HUD stats.

Can you clarify what you mean for the HUD/cards? I'm not sure I understood. Thanks.

Agree that Hero often has the best hand, but that hand is not gonna get called often except by stuff that beats us - is he really c/c-ing the two big streets with A-high?
I mean, betting so that villain can't see our holecards and maybe freerolling might be some valid arguments, I just think they are about equal in chance than villain playing a 2 that way for a c/r.

I don't think he has as many 2x combos because it's BvB. I do also see people defensively checkcall down with ace or king high here fairly often in BvB pots.

Your HUD box is placed so your cards are only showing the top half, i.e. the small numbers. If you move the box an inch down the cards are more visible.

Oh, okay. I do that to cover my stack size so I don't see results, but there should be a way to tweak it some. I'll take a look.

I made a stat panel called "player name" and did "only show for hero" for it, then I dragged it over my chip stack, and it's an automatic tilt-blocker.

or you could download tilt blocker, DC has a version.

Interesting series, the dual commentary stuff is where DC really crushes. I'd probably watch if DD and BBB set up a dual commentary series on cricket.

"And Now for Something Different: ... " i would watch it

http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/9261-Episode-Two#

1:00:58

was curious about the A2 discussion on turn play as BB vs SB steal on 6438 board

any chance that if we are seriously considering peeling here as being best a raise might not be better than a call? I am either folding this or raising usually since the 5 river gives a chop, a club might scare him and he is facing more decisions. It just seems calling is not play that I would default to.

Is this too spewy or weak? (contradiction, i know)

which

http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/9261-Episode-Two#

1:00:58

was curious about the A2 discussion on turn play as BB vs SB steal on 6438 board

any chance that if we are seriously considering peeling here as being best a raise might not be better than a call? I am either folding this or raising usually since the 5 river gives a chop, a club might scare him and he is facing more decisions. It just seems calling is not play that I would default to.

Is this too spewy or weak? (contradiction, i know)

which

Well, I take it your raise would be as a bluff, right? What kind of better hands do you think he'll fold? I tend to assume that sort of unknown bad-ish players are going to be pretty showdown bound so I didn't like the idea of turning my bluffcatcher into a bluff here. In general I don't do that much at all with ace high type of hands. In this spot I think he'll mostly fold worse hands if I raise, and call all better. I think looking at it now that maybe fold is playable also, but I think I have okay equity vs his range, given the price I'm getting, assuming he double-barrels almost all of it in a BvB hand, so I think the call is okay.

Well, I take it your raise would be as a bluff, right? What kind of better hands do you think he'll fold? I tend to assume that sort of unknown bad-ish players are going to be pretty showdown bound so I didn't like the idea of turning my bluffcatcher into a bluff here. In general I don't do that much at all with ace high type of hands. In this spot I think he'll mostly fold worse hands if I raise, and call all better. I think looking at it now that maybe fold is playable also, but I think I have okay equity vs his range, given the price I'm getting, assuming he double-barrels almost all of it in a BvB hand, so I think the call is okay.

spoiler alert, the hand above is copied incorrectly: the board should read 6437

well, maybe I am misinterpreting the discussion........ I thought that your idea was that it was possible the villain is barreling with Kx Qx Jx type hands. That was the reason for the turn peel right? And then the idea was that perhaps calling the river was best, ONCE you called the turn.

My idea was, you are thinking of putting in two bets light? Why not, IF you think you have the best hand, and a totally scary board, raise this turn? OR fold. But calling two seems like you not only lose to the bluffs but also to the Ax value hands and the pairs he already has or will have with the outs on the river.

you have a hand that is unlikely to be 3bet by villain...... (perhaps an erroneous assumption based on the higher limit)

If you do not like the river, you can check behind. But......... you seem to be saying in the vid that although you call the turn, folding the river would be a contradiction, which I agree with.

I seem to recall you agreeing that folding to the turn bet is best, but if you're folding a turn that would be so scary to most SB here, what were you hoping for on the flop call?

I know it seems like I am grilling you, as if you had made a bad play, which is absolutely not what I am meaning to do. Just curious as my typical thoughts DO run along the lines above. And I feel this may be a huge leak in my game.

which

When you say if I call I lose to the bluffs -- not sure what you mean by that.

People tend to two-barrel pretty often in BvB regardless of their cards and the board, has been my experience. I'd say this more correlates to bad players and overaggro regs, and less so to thinking players. Since I don't think I knew the guy I decided to treat him as potentially bad/unknown, and so I'll (more so lately now that DD has hammered it into me) default to trying to show down vs him and see what he has so I can help develop my read. I guess I should stove it and see how I'm doing vs his range on the turn, so give me a minute to do that.

It sounds somewhat like you're saying that your general strategy in these and similar spots is "whenever I don't know what to do, I raise" which I don't think is optimal.

If I give villain top 60% pf and assume he double barrels his entire range:


---
28,952 games 0.031 secs 933,935 games/sec

Board: 3c 4c 6h 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.134% 31.98% 04.16% 9258 1203.50 { Ah2s }
Hand 1: 63.866% 59.71% 04.16% 17287 1203.50 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }


---

if I give him top 50% and assume he double barrels his entire range:


---
24,112 games 0.005 secs 4,822,400 games/sec

Board: 3c 4c 6h 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.009% 35.77% 04.24% 8624 1023.00 { Ah2s }
Hand 1: 59.991% 55.75% 04.24% 13442 1023.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }


---

I'm having trouble deciding exactly what range to have him bet if he's only betting when he has something on the turn. I did one stove where I only have about 15% that way. So if I knew that he would only valuebet against me on the turn then it could definitely be a fold. However, I'm sure he'll barrel some things as semibluffs, such as 8x, T9, etc. So once we put those combos back in my equity perks up a bit.

BBB--

I admit, i thnk my tendency to bet/raise the turn is a leak. (the losing to bluffs comment, I meant losing when they hit, or when you fold river, badly badly typed)

I think your stove shows the quandary. IF he is a thnking player, iffy as an unknown, better at these stakes than the micros, what would he bet facing such a strong spot for a raise by the BB. might he not induce?

He almost never 3 bets here except as a leveling exercise (and you can resteal) with a 4 card str8 up right? (maybe my own bad here)

but his river barrel is again a level maybe. why would he bet A hi, and thus he gets polarized again. bluffs and hands, very few Ax hands

i am thinking -cliff notes- I fold , and perhaps on the flop if I am expecting a two barrel so often, unless i plan on putting two bets in after the flop peel. IF I am peeling the flop, and thus committed to two more bets , perhaps the fold equity of the raise will outweigh the chance i actually see him barrel off or x back misses on river. (is the 8 the best non pairing card for us?)

In answer to your question, why would an A2 raise be turning my hand into a bluff? You assume by calling down you are best a correct % of the time, wouldn't the fold equity make up for his better Aces and pocket pairs that wind up not connecting on the river for you?

the more i think about it, the less i have a grasp o this hand

which

In answer to your question, why would an A2 raise be turning my hand into a bluff? You assume by calling down you are best a correct % of the time, wouldn't the fold equity make up for his better Aces and pocket pairs that wind up not connecting on the river for you?

which, I really don't understand what you are asking here, I mean I am reading the words but they just don't make sense to me. It seems to me that you are thinking that we should bluffraise A2 in order to prevent being bluffed ourselves, or you are thinking we should raise simply to get his worse hands (his bluffs basically) to fold so they don't spike the river against us? In either case I think its a mistake.

In the first case I think its bad because for the same price we can simply hit call twice and not risk any more bets going in against his whole range. If he is bluffing he may or may not give up on the river (we don't know this player so its impossible to say at this point). A very simple point in poker is that we need to ask "what better hand will fold?" if we bluff, here we need him to fold a better ace high or a pair, and beyond that, we need those to make up enough of his range to justify the bluff (pot odds basically). Another think I like to do in these spots is think about what hands make sense to bluff raise with, and here that would be hands with "good" equity and the least amount of showdown value, so like small flush draws, open enders, etc. are good candidates. A2 is the last hand I would want to be bluffing with here, its very icky.

To address the second point of just raising to get him to fold stuff that might spike against us, I think this has a tiny bit of merit, but moreso when pots are bloated for some reason. Here there isn't a ton in the pot, and to open ourselves up to more action (unlikely he bluff 3 bets but who knows) to protect a small pot when we are behind very often and he isn't folding very often, I think that's quite spewy.

DD--

Yeah, I wound up confusing myself as well

1. my first question: IF we think we are good enough of the time to call down twice......

Would it be better to think about raising on the turn? Since we are willing to call twice for 2 big bets we gain from those hands that might spike the river, the board straightening cards we now have to chop with, and better aces that might fold.

2. my second question: IF we are peeling the flop................

What card can come better than the 7? If we are thinking of folding the turn, (and I would) is it better to just fold on the flop? The only value we lose is when the villain checks the turn, which we have already stated we do not expect.

3. Finally, in a more general sense....... Why does a raise, or a bet have to go in either/or?

Why cannot I think I have the best hand at times (thus wanting them to pay extra to see the river) while at the same time collecting fold equity from various hands that do not want to continue that actually beat me? If you are OOP and bet here, get raised........... what hands will you call down with? Player dependent for sure, but vs an unknown?

If a player who bets into us on the turn can either have made hands or unpaired cards (which we might be beating already) why can we not be raising with some value hands (value raising if I am not misunderstanding the term) and bluffing vs the unpaired cards that are ahead at the moment?

DD, I think your post flop play (and BBB's) is so far beyond me that I must be leaking cash bigtime. Just trying to figure it out. And this seems like a perfect hand to do it. The villain is facing a really tough choice in my opinion once he gets raised, yet it seems in many spots like this they still wind up calling me down. So again, just trying to figure it out from the other side's viewpoint.

which

in response to (1)

It sounds like you are confusing/mixing up different concepts. Deciding to call down from the turn (one bet on turn, one bet on river = total of two bets) is not the same thing as deciding to raise the turn (two bets on turn plus potentially more if we get 3bet on turn or villain donks river = not total of two bets).

Just because we think we have the price/equity to make a calldown on the turn does not mean we have the equity to raise the turn. Usually raises are done either for value (we want somewhere above 50% equity, which we don't have here) or for a bluff/semibluff (which don't apply here).

Put another way: every time you have second pair on the flop, and get checkraised by an aggressive opponent and you decide to call down, are you raising the turn for the reasons you described above? If not, why not? If so, that's a big leak.

in response to (2)

we have A2 on a 643 board in position vs an SB opener. What kind of range do you give him for raising pf and cbetting? What's our rough equity on this board (Pokerstove it)? What immediate price are we getting?

Hopefully math-ing it out will show why this would be a bad fold.

Also, without even thinking about math, do you ever fold A2 on a 643 in this spot? If not, why not?

It seems like you might be working backward from what you know the turn card was, and thus being results oriented on the flop.

When you ask, what better card can come than the 7 - I don't understand what you mean. This is clearly not an amazing card for us. Some better cards would include: aces (making us top pair), deuces (making us a pair), fives (making us a straight), and boardpairing cards (not improving the opponent's hand any so if we are ahead we remain ahead).

I'll leave (3) for DD so he doesn't feel left out.

3. Finally, in a more general sense....... Why does a raise, or a bet have to go in either/or?

Why cannot I think I have the best hand at times (thus wanting them to pay extra to see the river) while at the same time collecting fold equity from various hands that do not want to continue that actually beat me? If you are OOP and bet here, get raised........... what hands will you call down with? Player dependent for sure, but vs an unknown?

If a player who bets into us on the turn can either have made hands or unpaired cards (which we might be beating already) why can we not be raising with some value hands (value raising if I am not misunderstanding the term) and bluffing vs the unpaired cards that are ahead at the moment?

DD, I think your post flop play (and BBB's) is so far beyond me that I must be leaking cash bigtime. Just trying to figure it out. And this seems like a perfect hand to do it. The villain is facing a really tough choice in my opinion once he gets raised, yet it seems in many spots like this they still wind up calling me down. So again, just trying to figure it out from the other side's viewpoint.

which

BBB gave great answers to 1) and 2) so I'll just focus on 3). You are basically describing the proverbial "merge" play, which is described by people as making a play where sometimes you get value from a worse hand and sometimes get a better hand to fold. There has always been a debate over whether such a play even really exists, and I firmly am on the side that thinks no it does not. There are two basic ways we can evaluate a play in poker, either we can put our opponent on a hand (or on a range of several hands) and try to figure out how we should best play against that range, or we can evaluate our own hand range given the previous action, and the board texture, to come up with a balanced strategy for the situation we find ourselves in (this is estimating the GTO strategy which is all it is, an estimation, an attempt to find an unexploitable strategy).

In the first case you would need to make assumptions about what villain would do with various parts of his range. In order to make the "merge" play good villain has to basically be a hypocrite, for instance maybe he calls the turn raise with unimproved overcards but folds some small pairs. In reality, I do not believe there is a range you can construct for any thinking player where its a fair/good assumption that he will do something like that, so I tend to just throw that idea right out the window, and then ask myself what's the best play vs his range and reasonable assumptions about how he will proceed with that range. Against some players it would be right to bluff raise this board texture sometimes, because he would give us credit for a big hand on a "scary" board, but that's all it would be, a pure bluff raise based on a read. Against most players, I think it would be a mistake, their second bet is a little scary, and they would probably be stubborn, so if we were to raise it would strictly be for value (important to note: I am not suggesting a value raise is good, simply saying that IF we raised, it would be very foolish to call it a bluff raise if we assumed villain will be stubborn, it would be a badddd bluff raise). To make it a good value raise we need to be a favorite against his calling range, we wouldn't be. I don't think I need to stove that out to prove it, he will often have pairs and better ace highs when he calls us, though sometimes we will have his draws beat. With neither of those options being particularly appealing, I like a call best.

From the balance / GTO perspective now: we would raise here for value with many hands we delayed until the turn, this is a good board to peel on so I think waiting until the turn is a good play, we want to balance our turn raises with straights, pairs, 2 pairs, sets, etc with some bluffs. The ideal bluffing candidates are the hands with equity that have the least amount of showdown value (lowest in our range for non folding) such as open enders and small flush draws. Something like A2 here is what I call a "no man's land" hand - it is too good to bluff with, and not good enough to value raise, and possibly not even good enough to call down with (debatable).