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Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by BalugaWhale (Mid Stakes)

Awesome video BW! thanks a lot again.

Great Video!!

Hi Andrew,

Love the video & the rest of your work here at DC .

I've got a question re: flatting w AK preflop vs aggro opponent that we assume is polarised (24:44 mark, dunno how to mark it on the video ).

I understand the concept of flatting with huge equity edges (especially vs polarised ranges) w hands such as AA/KK, but does flatting w AK preflop here without having a good idea of how often he's going to auto-cbet/bluff off postflop run the risk of letting him realise his equity share the times he flops a pair with his suited connectors etc.?

What are your thoughts on how much (or what kind) of a read you want to have on a guy before you think that this is better than 4betting to fold out his equity share & take the dead money down?

Cheers
JP

Time Link to 00:52:07

Andrew you are thinking about calling here IP if he 4bets,right? That's why you are explaining that AQ crusher his 4 bet range here (well it crushes it if it's polarized and wide)...

Time Link to 00:13:00

if he was floating on the flop, wouldnt he have bet the turn?

Time Link to 00:28:56

you say you just showed a big hand, but what about the psychological aspect? Maybe he thinks you are a bit tilting now and trying it again?

I noticed you say "interesting..." in all the spots that would make me say "Awww...FUCK!" whilst pulling out clumps of my hair and gently sobbing. Is this something you've worked on or is it your natural reaction to adversity?

Time Link to 00:24:48

top right - AKo
I am pretty sure you should get it in preflop. you have no real reads on the player to justify that he might go crazy postflop with KT IP or pay you off to light when you hit

at the point you have <20 hands on villain, and that's no samplesize

BW, I enjoyed this episode much more than the first. The first episode scared the heck out of me.....so many AI bluffs/calling all the way to spew city (generating a lot of discussion). I was like "Wow, I have to play like that? and then lose so much? That is crazy gambling! Am I suppose to do that too?"

In this episode, it seemed like your foot was taken off the throttle just a little bit . Big adjustments with more folds. But, you still have me guessing (especially with those 4bet decisions from the SB)......what is BW going to do here?

I have learned so much from your earlier videos (that actually helped my game), and I always look forward to your new ones. I also enjoy your candid honesty about your own game.

I am rooting for this HERO comeback. Good Luck!

Time Link to 00:32:03

you assume that he knows who you are and knows what range you are 3betting him with. maybe he doesn't!

I don't think at a table vs a new player it is bad to 4b with KK the first time I have a chance to 4b you, especially early when some players on nl200 might level themself into 5b shipping with QJs or whatever, because "he 4b me light here because he knows I 3b a lot, so I can 5b ship here, oh noes he snapped me , well cooler "

you assume that he knows who you are and knows what range you are 3betting him with. maybe he doesn't!

I don't think at a table vs a new player it is bad to 4b with KK the first time I have a chance to 4b you, especially early when some players on nl200 might level themself into 5b shipping with QJs or whatever, because "he 4b me light here because he knows I 3b a lot, so I can 5b ship here, oh noes he snapped me , well cooler "

if you really do believe you stack QJs more often by 4betting than by flatting, then ofc its a 4bet preflop. I think that might be optimistic, though.

Andrew

top right - AKo
I am pretty sure you should get it in preflop. you have no real reads on the player to justify that he might go crazy postflop with KT IP or pay you off to light when you hit

at the point you have <20 hands on villain, and that's no samplesize

i have even less of a read that he calls off my shove with worse?

Andrew

I noticed you say "interesting..." in all the spots that would make me say "Awww...FUCK!" whilst pulling out clumps of my hair and gently sobbing. Is this something you've worked on or is it your natural reaction to adversity?

Helps playing what amounts to low stakes for me

Andrew

you say you just showed a big hand, but what about the psychological aspect? Maybe he thinks you are a bit tilting now and trying it again?

totally valid

Andrew

if he was floating on the flop, wouldnt he have bet the turn?

Also valid, but I think he probably bets turn with a 9 also. So the question is whether or not he's more likely to check back turn with a 9 or JT/T8/86, and i kinda thought he'd be more likely to bet a 9 and check the other ones than the reverse. That said, he has a Q there too often to c/c i think.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Love the video & the rest of your work here at DC .

I've got a question re: flatting w AK preflop vs aggro opponent that we assume is polarised (24:44 mark, dunno how to mark it on the video ).

I understand the concept of flatting with huge equity edges (especially vs polarised ranges) w hands such as AA/KK, but does flatting w AK preflop here without having a good idea of how often he's going to auto-cbet/bluff off postflop run the risk of letting him realise his equity share the times he flops a pair with his suited connectors etc.?

What are your thoughts on how much (or what kind) of a read you want to have on a guy before you think that this is better than 4betting to fold out his equity share & take the dead money down?

Cheers
JP

i mean, no great answer here, other than-- if he's really aggro in general, he's more likely to throw out a poorly timed c-bet, or to put in money with a worse hand in general. Honestly, I imagine most people 4b ranges include a lot of Ax and Kx for blockers, and I envision a lot of this kind of action-- he 4bets, we call AK, flop is A42, we check, he checks w his weak ace. Turn blanks, we bet, he calls, riv is a blank, we ship, and he maybe calls/maybe folds, but either way we got a lot more value than if we flatted.

Just an idea. Playing with theory, yayyy

Andrew

With AK on 993 (example), villan bets $38 with his entire range, we fold; gg.

Calling is a mistake AINEC. Villans will be 4B bluffing a ton versus your perceived wide 3B ranging and there is just too much dead money + He will be calling with worst + our equity vs his value range = SHOVE. If we Ever Fold the best hand on a low board when he CB 1/4 pot, it's a disaster.

You really need to do PokerStove stuff...

Finally, wtf at the check/raise... what are you hoping to accomplish? He is calling with QQ, AQ? If you are called, you are beat. You took the 2nd worst line preflop and worst line post-flop. Whatever....

With AK on 993 (example), villan bets $38 with his entire range, we fold; gg.

Calling is a mistake AINEC. Villans will be 4B bluffing a ton versus your perceived wide 3B ranging and there is just too much dead money + He will be calling with worst + our equity vs his value range = SHOVE. If we Ever Fold the best hand on a low board when he CB 1/4 pot, it's a disaster.

You really need to do PokerStove stuff...

Finally, wtf at the check/raise... what are you hoping to accomplish? He is calling with QQ, AQ? If you are called, you are beat. You took the 2nd worst line preflop and worst line post-flop. Whatever....

1) why on earth would i fold to a cbet if hes betting with his entire range? that was kinda the point of flatting in the first place

2) what worse hands is he 4b calling otb?

3) i suppose you could make a decent argument for c/c flop, i just dont think he ever bluffs on a later street if we do. but actually, now that I think about it, I think probably c/c is a little better than c/r, just because our equity is so secure.

trust me, i'm aware that shipping AK is +EV.

Andrew

With AK on 993 (example), villan bets $38 with his entire range, we fold; gg.

Calling is a mistake AINEC. Villans will be 4B bluffing a ton versus your perceived wide 3B ranging and there is just too much dead money + He will be calling with worst + our equity vs his value range = SHOVE. If we Ever Fold the best hand on a low board when he CB 1/4 pot, it's a disaster.

I'm confused here. A couple of quick questions:
1) If you assume he's Cbetting his entire range on that board why are you folding? You say he's 4Bet bluffing “a ton” so could you put a range together and show the equity AK has on 993.
2) You don't seem to mention what our perceived range is when we flat here. What is our percieved range and how do you think it will affect villains actions on different board textures?
3) If we 5Bet shove you mention that villain is calling with worse. Like what? Could you put together a calling range and the equity AK has.

Once you get these ranges together I'm sure I'll be able to understand your reasoning but without this information I'm sorry but I just don't get your argument. Maybe I'm slow but I need to see this stuff laid out with the ranges and math and assumptions before I can understand. I look forward to seeing it all as I'm eager to learn.

Note:You might want to watch WoT's new series Pokersense. Episode Two talks a bit about posts like yours.

Good Luck.

Finally, wtf at the check/raise... what are you hoping to accomplish? He is calling with QQ, AQ? If you are called, you are beat. You took the 2nd worst line preflop and worst line post-flop. Whatever....

Again, I need to see the range you think he gets here with and what he's doing with each part of that range when facing a flop raise or after a flop call on the turn. I assume you think he going to continue bluff on certain turn cards and never calls with worse on this flop but without a range I can't understand your point.

Good Luck.

Time Link to 00:12:58

with KQs, would u ever consider raising despite your arguments in order to balance the times we flop a set or 2pair in that spot? or would u c/c a set/2pair on that drawy board?

another great vid, great work

Time Link to 00:48:27

you folding JTs and 66 to a 3 bet from the blinds. What is your bottom calling range?

I have to agree with everyone on the AK hand, definitely a shove and it isn't close. If he has Ax and we have AK, we have a 12% chance of seeing an ace on the flop, 16% by the turn if we assume you're calling some flop bets. Likewise, we're going to miss the flop 60% (which is if he doesn't have blockers in his range).

I don't think we're getting it in vs AQ type hands here as it's so much better to call pre than 4b in that spot, but I think without position and initiative with a hand that misses the flop 60% of the time. The value of AK pre in a 3b/5b spot is that we capitalize on fold equity which in turn allows our AK to see 5 cards instead of 3.

I think your last video was one of the best I've seen in a while, so don't think I'm trying to be rude or anything, but flatting a 4b 100bbs deep w/AK is just a mistake.

I have to agree with everyone on the AK hand, definitely a shove and it isn't close. If he has Ax and we have AK, we have a 12% chance of seeing an ace on the flop, 16% by the turn if we assume you're calling some flop bets. Likewise, we're going to miss the flop 60% (which is if he doesn't have blockers in his range).

I don't think we're getting it in vs AQ type hands here as it's so much better to call pre than 4b in that spot, but I think without position and initiative with a hand that misses the flop 60% of the time. The value of AK pre in a 3b/5b spot is that we capitalize on fold equity which in turn allows our AK to see 5 cards instead of 3.

I think your last video was one of the best I've seen in a while, so don't think I'm trying to be rude or anything, but flatting a 4b 100bbs deep w/AK is just a mistake.

what does "miss the flop" really mean?

Andrew

you folding JTs and 66 to a 3 bet from the blinds. What is your bottom calling range?

depends who's 3betting me! and how deep

what does "miss the flop" really mean?

Andrew

It's when we don't hit an A or a K. Once again that number didn't include blockers, but if we're including blockers in his range flops like QJx or QTx are not good for us.

depends who's 3betting me! and how deep

Say, 100BB to a reg with a depolarized 3 betting range

It's when we don't hit an A or a K. Once again that number didn't include blockers, but if we're including blockers in his range flops like QJx or QTx are not good for us.

I think that flops like QJx or QTx are pretty good for us if the villain's range is polarised, and pretty meh if it's unpolarised. Sometimes we flop 78T two tone and have to c/f but whatever.

We're still likely to have 24% or so equity vs a bunch of hands that's made a pair (AJ/AQ/KJ etc) though even if he's unpolarised and sometimes we're up against other gutters and straight draws that we have crushed. If he has like 98s or K2s then we can say hooray and either call down or just ship over cbet, depending on how likely we think he's bluffing on future streets.

I don't think it's an auto-call with AK here over shipping but I don't think it's terrible or anything, I think it has a lot of merit especially if we're comfortable postflop.

Say, 100BB to a reg with a depolarized 3 betting range

well, if he's depolarized, i dont really have to play back at him very often. its hard to play loose and still be depolarized

I think that flops like QJx or QTx are pretty good for us if the villain's range is polarised, and pretty meh if it's unpolarised. Sometimes we flop 78T two tone and have to c/f but whatever.

Something I was trying to make apparent is that the logic that could make those boards decent is the same logic being used to justify the call pre. I think it's completely safe to say someone is more likely to 4b blockers here and a value hand at this point in their encounter than say 76s or 83o. Either way, if you really want to argue both sides then we don't have a clue as to what his range is and WILL ABSOLUTELY MAKE MISTAKES POST. So lets just assume value hands and blockers, because that's far more likely and avoids an unneeded discussion.

We're still likely to have 24% or so equity vs a bunch of hands that's made a pair (AJ/AQ/KJ etc) though even if he's unpolarised and sometimes we're up against other gutters and straight draws that we have crushed. If he has like 98s or K2s then we can say hooray and either call down or just ship over cbet, depending on how likely we think he's bluffing on future streets.

Once again, we can't argue both sides. If we do, we're already admitting it's bad because we don't know how to play either board. Based on your example though, in the case of a depolarized range we're getting it in with 24% equity or taking down dead money on the flop. Or we can take down dead money pre and get it in with 50% equity? Plus, we ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO check fold some boards. It's not close.

Oh ok. I didn't think I was arguing both sides, I was arguing that it was good vs polarised ranges, but was like talking about how this board just isn't good vs unpolarised ranges in contrast to that assumption (which is the worst case scenario, but we still have decent equity).

I guess I was trying to say that if flopping QJx and having semi decent equity is one of our nightmare scenarios flatting AK can't be that bad.

I'm not arguing both sides, I was arguing an either or scenario vs different villain types.

So isn't this board excellent for us if the villain's range is Axs or Kxs a bunch and will cbet/fold? We've gotten a bunch more money vs the bottom of his range and we'll probably get it in vs JJ+ and AQ+ pre anyway if we 5bet.

If that's what he does. For this call to be good he absolutely has to have a bluffing range that's ASTRONOMICAL, which would need to be compensated with a wide value range which still makes getting it in pre best. You're ignoring him ever having a better hand, if we're making so many calls, and you're ignoring the time he hits a pair with an unpaired hand by the river. Also, as I've said before, you HAVE to fold some boards, probably at the very minimum 20-30% of the time you make it to the flop. It's very likely more like 40-50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time you still have to deal with his value range.

I assure you that if you ask around in SSNL or MSNL on 2+2, everyone will agree that calling is bad.

I assure you that if you ask around in SSNL or MSNL on 2+2, everyone will agree that calling is bad.

You didn't say that. Must've been a typo.



What is a BTN 4bet range? JJ+, AK obviously. What do you add to it value-wise?

What do you add to it 4bet bluff-wise?

I said it, if you post there you'd know who the legit posters are and what advice is nonsense, and the better players would all agree on this because it's clear cut. I think the only reason Baluga did it in the video is because he hasn't played in a while so he's just getting used to things again and his overall style is based moreso around creating bigger equity edges, which lends itself to a call pre in this spot. That said, it's still a mistake.

I don't know how either of those questions are at all relevant. However, I've already stated that our best assumption of his bluffing range is blocker hands, KT, QJ, KQ. Valuewise I'd add nothing.

I said it, if you post there you'd know who the legit posters are and what advice is nonsense, and the better players would all agree on this because it's clear cut. I think the only reason Baluga did it in the video is because he hasn't played in a while so he's just getting used to things again and his overall style is based moreso around creating bigger equity edges, which lends itself to a call pre in this spot. That said, it's still a mistake.

If it's a mistake, and you could be right, it's a mistake because there's more value in playing it differently, not because a bunch of small stakes tagfish on some forum will say so.
I fail to see why it's bad to create big equity edges. In fact, I wish I could do it all the time.

I don't know how either of those questions are at all relevant. However, I've already stated that our best assumption of his bluffing range is blocker hands, KT, QJ, KQ. Valuewise I'd add nothing.

Considering we're talking about AK v a BTN 4bet, it seems pretty relevant. Have you stoved your range? Vs. this, we're 60%

JJ+,AKs,A9s-A5s,KQs,KTs,QJs,AKo,KQo,KTo,QJo

All of the hands (I only put A5-A9s as blocker hands) that aren't pure value (JJ+, AK) are dominated by AK.

What is 4bet-calling a ship?

If it's a mistake, and you could be right, it's a mistake because there's more value in playing it differently, not because a bunch of small stakes tagfish on some forum will say so.
I fail to see why it's bad to create big equity edges. In fact, I wish I could do it all the time.

I didn't say it's right because they'll say it's right. I said it's right and they'll tell you why it's right. Well, I didn't say either, but I meant the latter. Can see how this would be misinterpreted. I never said it's bad to create big equity edges, I was not belittling his style, I play a similar style. I was just citing the reason why I think he thought the play was valid, which is because if you haven't been in this spot a lot recently or thought about it a lot recently, someone who plays like that would have the first instinct of "call".

Considering we're talking about AK v a BTN 4bet, it seems pretty relevant. Have you stoved your range? Vs. this, we're 60%

JJ+,AKs,A9s-A5s,KQs,KTs,QJs,AKo,KQo,KTo,QJo

All of the hands (I only put A5-A9s as blocker hands) that aren't pure value (JJ+, AK) are dominated by AK.

What is 4bet-calling a ship?

Once again, 12% is are the odds that we dominate him on the flop, 16% by the turn. We'll have 40% equity vs JJ+, AK+, if he has AQ it becomes a flip. Either way it's a much better spot than we would get in otherwise. I've explained why it's better already, at this point I don't wish to continue this conversation. I am absolutely certain that calling is a mistake here, and if you asked other DC video producers, or any sites video producers (earlier poster steel108 is a leggo video producer), you would find that they're all in agreement.

This AK hand argument is getting pretty dumb. Flatting and jamming are obv both +EV. If i ever flat a 4 bet with AK i'm never ever ever ever folding on any board. I do it because I think villain is likely to fire out a cbet large percent of the time and I'm going to jam over that cbet and get him to fold thus trapping a extra bet out of him.

The times villain out flops you and stacks you will be compensated for the times you cooler him/suck out and stacks him. Now if villain is just going to c/f boards where it missed him then jamming pre is clearly better.

Saying jamming AK is the only correct play is just dumb doesn't matter how many people agrees with you. Shit is situational for almost everything in poker.

No, not in this case. You are absolutely wrong. I really thought I'd just let this die but that's an incredibly wrong comment and it'll only bring detriment to other players games. Seriously, open up every poker forum ever created and ask anyone if you should flat or jam AK when you're OOP 100bbs deep with an unknown player, everyone with a decent winrate will respond with jam (so long as they have been in the spot in the past few months). It's a clear spot once you think about it.

The idea of never folding post is horrible, it's MUCH, MUCH more likely that a majority of his range is value, not bluffs.

No, not in this case. You are absolutely wrong. I really thought I'd just let this die but that's an incredibly wrong comment and it'll only bring detriment to other players games. Seriously, open up every poker forum ever created and ask anyone if you should flat or jam AK when you're OOP 100bbs deep with an unknown player, everyone with a decent winrate will respond with jam (so long as they have been in the spot in the past few months). It's a clear spot once you think about it.

The idea of never folding post is horrible, it's MUCH, MUCH more likely that a majority of his range is value, not bluffs.

hey mal,

i'm appreciative of your enthusiasm for this subject. i'd have just a few quick points i will make:
1) just because people have a +EV solution to a problem doesn't mean it's the most +EV (hence all the 2p2pers with winrates all shoving here and still making money. i never argued that shoving AK doesnt make money, and shoving would've been my longtime preferred option until some very awesome poker arguments convinced me otherwise).
2) if a majority of someone's range is value, not bluffs, then we probably should just muck our AK preflop. However, if somebody's 4bet range is relegated to JJ+ and Ax and Kx, and maybe some random low cards sometimes, then we're not up against that solidly of a value range after all.
3) if people don't bluff postflop, then you are right, we're up against value ranges postflop. you may note that i said, in this case, we should just opt to ship it in preflop instead (because our opponents play perfectly postflop too often).

I think you should be careful about thinking in terms of absolute hand strength (i.e. AK misses a lot of flops!) and instead, think about relative equity (i.e. even when AK misses its ahead a lot, and even when its behind when it misses, it has good equity to catch up, and either way is likely to have good implied odds on its outs).

just probing things here maleficus, when everyone's thinking one way it's usually a good time to start questioning it!

Andrew

if you really do believe you stack QJs more often by 4betting than by flatting, then ofc its a 4bet preflop. I think that might be optimistic, though.

Andrew

in no offense way, but we play against a range at this point both of you don't have a read what the other player would do. like >95% of all players at nl200 would 5b with AK there (I guess a lot would stackoff with TT+, so we can get even more value with the 4b!), and it would be bad for him to not get it in vs those hands. it is just not correct to think in this spot about 1 hand. if you think you get him to stack off lighter postflop with QJ,or maybe he might c/f ~TT on J93r etc. (who knows? like I said, we don't have a read!)

i have even less of a read that he calls off my shove with worse?

Andrew

AK is not a hand where we get it in with, because we have the best hand. we get it in with AK preflop because we have such a good equity vs the normal calloff range and we collect the deadmoney that is already in the pot when he was 4b bluffing. so at that point, especially OOP, I am pretty sure it is wrong to not play the hand straight forward

but: don't get me wrong. I somewhat like the play if we have a read on our opponent, but this isn't given at the moment. I just don't like how you say that this is how you should play AKo in this spot, because that's just not true

oh, and last thing: like everyone else already said: We're not complaining about your content, just about a missplayed hand. Overall the vid was good education for everyone here! And if someone totally diagrees with the things you say, well, he might be better off not watching your vids. keep on the good work!!

If it's a mistake, and you could be right, it's a mistake because there's more value in playing it differently, not because a bunch of small stakes tagfish on some forum will say so.
I fail to see why it's bad to create big equity edges. In fact, I wish I could do it all the time.

Considering we're talking about AK v a BTN 4bet, it seems pretty relevant. Have you stoved your range? Vs. this, we're 60%

JJ+,AKs,A9s-A5s,KQs,KTs,QJs,AKo,KQo,KTo,QJo

All of the hands (I only put A5-A9s as blocker hands) that aren't pure value (JJ+, AK) are dominated by AK.

What is 4bet-calling a ship?

Thats a massively unbalanced range and a lot of those hands probably call pre. If he is 4 betting our 3 bets that much we probably should just ship any 2 and giggle. Equity edge isn't all that great when you have this massive amount of dead money that you're either going to fold incorrectly and lose or get value owned by the random pair that they flop some percent of the time. Without knowing very specific things about opponents tendencies/range I can't see postflop strategies other than 'oh well I better just call it off because the pot is almost stacksize on the flop' being good, and calling it off randomly doesn't seem great either.

So we're playing weird guessing games over huge sums because we think that those guessing games = higher EV than folding out his bluffs half of the time getting in as a flip the other half?. Also this does gross things to our 5-bet range, either making it really really small or dominated by small pairs and AQ.

This AK hand argument is getting pretty dumb. Flatting and jamming are obv both +EV. If i ever flat a 4 bet with AK i'm never ever ever ever folding on any board. I do it because I think villain is likely to fire out a cbet large percent of the time and I'm going to jam over that cbet and get him to fold thus trapping a extra bet out of him.

The times villain out flops you and stacks you will be compensated for the times you cooler him/suck out and stacks him. Now if villain is just going to c/f boards where it missed him then jamming pre is clearly better.

Saying jamming AK is the only correct play is just dumb doesn't matter how many people agrees with you. Shit is situational for almost everything in poker.

Jamming over cbets on like 456 board against a polarized range seems like suicide. Unless you like bluffing with the best hand a lot.

Thats a massively unbalanced range and a lot of those hands probably call pre. If he is 4 betting our 3 bets that much we probably should just ship any 2 and giggle.

If you don't like the range, that's cool. What range would you give him? That's seems like the meat of the hand. Mine reflected what Malefiicus said, JJ+ and some blockers.
Also, because he could 4bet a range doesn't mean he always 4bets every hand in it.

Equity edge isn't all that great when you have this massive amount of dead money that you're either going to fold incorrectly and lose or get value owned by the random pair that they flop some percent of the time.

I would think it's pretty important to think about that some percent of the time. If it's small enough, then we auto profit no matter what.

Without knowing very specific things about opponents tendencies/range I can't see postflop strategies other than 'oh well I better just call it off because the pot is almost stacksize on the flop' being good, and calling it off randomly doesn't seem great either.

So we're playing weird guessing games over huge sums because we think that those guessing games = higher EV than folding out his bluffs half of the time getting in as a flip the other half?. Also this does gross things to our 5-bet range, either making it really really small or dominated by small pairs and AQ.

We don't know alot about opponents' tendencies or range, true. But the same is the case if we ship. We don't know what he'll fold or call off. If you give me a range different than the one I did, and pick what he'll fold out and what he'll call with, then you're doing the same thing as I am, guessing about ranges. Once we determine a range and what he'll do with it on the flop, then we can get a pretty good idea of what extra $$ we'd make by calling and snapping off the cbet (by estimating his bet size).
If he has a bluff range here, we make money from it when he bets the flop and folds or when he spikes and we respike a better pair or he gets counterfeited or whatever.
If he doesn't have a bluff range preflop, then we should fold. If he never bluffs the flop, then like BW said, ship it prf. And like his 4bet range, our 5bet range is fluid.



I'm not definitely saying shipping is wrong or worse. My first instinct watching the video was to snap ship. But I haven't seen any compelling reason why shipping is actually better. It's definitely uncomfortable to whiff the flop after flatting the 4bet, but if your not always folding, and he's always betting, then it seems like you win that extra cbet from his bluffs every time, and his value range gets you whether you flat pre or ship.

Re the AK hand...

One of your main arguments for flatting is that shoving pre allows your opponent to play perfectly, and in order to do that you put yourself in a position where you force yourself to play perfectly postflop, which without reads is going to be insanely difficult. When you flat pre you've obviously got a value hand, not necessarily a monster but you've never got 78s or TJs or something, it seems like you're going to have monsters and stuff like AQ, KQ, AJ etc. So it's unlikely that people are going to go crazy trying to barrel you off a really strong range, especially on A or K high boards which is obviously bad for us. So it is definitely a possibility that people will freeze up a little when you flat the 4 bet and proceed to only bet for value postflop. Given that you've stated you are not going to be check folding very often then that is a terrible situation for us to be in, and it's not too unlikely.

When you flat and check shove flops lets say T-8-2, you're still likely to be letting your opponent play perfectly - he'll never call worse and you're just trying to pick up dead money. Granted, you may pick up a c-bet but we don't know that without reads. So check folding postflop is not going to happen, check shoving is not ideal, which leaves you in a position where you are check calling down, but when you face multiple barrels in a 4 bet pot with AK high how often are you really going to be good? You place a lot of stock in the fact that sometimes you will cooler him when you have him dominated but this will happen very rarely, and you don't really have any basis for the assumptions you make which make this play good (4 bet bluffing a lot, cbetting air a lot in 4 bet pots).

Would definitely love to hear some other coaches opinions on this.

If you don't like the range, that's cool. What range would you give him? That's seems like the meat of the hand. Mine reflected what Malefiicus said, JJ+ and some blockers.
Also, because he could 4bet a range doesn't mean he always 4bets every hand in it.

Well KQs and QJs aren't really blockers as much as fairly standard defense hands for calling. When I think blockers its like A3o and the like since he expects us to ship/fold(which is definitely the stronger argument for calling instead of shipping).

I would think it's pretty important to think about that some percent of the time. If it's small enough, then we auto profit no matter what.

We don't know alot about opponents' tendencies or range, true. But the same is the case if we ship.

I think against most opponents we can safely assign a range of either TT+ or JJ+ and AKo+ to their calling range until we know otherwise, and yes they will play 'perfect' against us with that range. The point is that by shoving he put 1/4 of his stack in dead a not insignificant amount of time. Once we call his cards are live, and he is playing in position against us in a huge pot where we don't have any specific tendencies that we think we can exploit. (granted baluga having a better postflop edge than a lot of 200nlers may be able to squeeze some EV out of the situation).

I'm not definitely saying shipping is wrong or worse. My first instinct watching the video was to snap ship. But I haven't seen any compelling reason why shipping is actually better. It's definitely uncomfortable to whiff the flop after flatting the 4bet, but if your not always folding, and he's always betting, then it seems like you win that extra cbet from his bluffs every time, and his value range gets you whether you flat pre or ship.

Your first instinct was pretty good. It probably went something like "can I profitably play AK oop in a 4 bet pot well against a reasonably good opponent?" Then you probably started thinking about 3 bet pots with initiative are kind of weird with AK and that you'll probably end up making a lot of mistakes. Like our hand even looks a lot like AK(maybe KQs?) when we call here so we're now oop with a mostly face up hand in a huge pot. Also getting it in pf with 50% equity is not the same as getting it in on the turn with less than 25% equity. Which will happen often enough. Not to mention the times we fold with 75%ish equity which is going to happen some percentage of the time. Being able to snap off a 20-25bb cbet some percentage of the time(which isn't dead) doesn't seem like it'll make up for the times we're outplayed or the times he would have folded to the shove with 35bb in dead money already in the pot.

Time Link to 00:24:21

Can you explain why you think 3betting 77 was better than flat? Were you planning to 5bet shove?


Also about the AK hand:

Are you concerned about what flatting AK does to your 4betting range? You also mentioned that you sometimes would like flatting 3bets with big pairs also, so that means when you 4bet you very unlikely have to any value hands.

Yeah I completely messed up the /quotes. You can hopefully figure out which words are yours

glad to have started such a ruckus! I will say, though, there have been a lot of arguments that I'd find insufficient to justify shipping preflop. There are some good arguments for it, but be careful that your arguments aren't simply regurgitated 2p2 rhetoric! (the same kind of rhetoric that would have had you betting 1/2 pot on the river for value against a fish 3 years ago!).

another thing that I find odd-- you guys seem to think that playing OOP is worse in a 4b pot at 100bb than in a raised pot 100bb, which would be entirely backwards.

Andrew

glad to have started such a ruckus! I will say, though, there have been a lot of arguments that I'd find insufficient to justify shipping preflop. There are some good arguments for it, but be careful that your arguments aren't simply regurgitated 2p2 rhetoric! (the same kind of rhetoric that would have had you betting 1/2 pot on the river for value against a fish 3 years ago!).

another thing that I find odd-- you guys seem to think that playing OOP is worse in a 4b pot at 100bb than in a raised pot 100bb, which would be entirely backwards.

Andrew

I definitely think playing oop deep is worse(expecially with an unsuited non-pair hand), that doesn't mean his positional advantage is non-existant(for instance he can see 4 cards for free since we're betting out on the flop 0% of the time here).

I definitely think playing oop deep is worse(expecially with an unsuited non-pair hand), that doesn't mean his positional advantage is non-existant(for instance he can see 4 cards for free since we're betting out on the flop 0% of the time here).

understood, but a key part of my analysis is that he bets a lot of flops. as I said before, if he checks back a lot of his range, then 5betting is better. If I flat with AK and the person checks back, then, I'd get in the habit of shipping vs that player.

A good example might be where I flatted AJ in this episode and the guy checked back on a JJ4 board. From here on out, I'd rather ship AJ than flat it against that guy.

Andrew

understood, but a key part of my analysis is that he bets a lot of flops. as I said before, if he checks back a lot of his range, then 5betting is better. If I flat with AK and the person checks back, then, I'd get in the habit of shipping vs that player.

A good example might be where I flatted AJ in this episode and the guy checked back on a JJ4 board. From here on out, I'd rather ship AJ than flat it against that guy.

Andrew

Can we honestly say that without further reads from a taggy player that they are going to cbet their air a lot in position in 4 bet pots? Like its such a weird spot that almost never seems to happen outside of people doing slowplays with AA/KK(well and apparently AKo).

Can we honestly say that without further reads from a taggy player that they are going to cbet their air a lot in position in 4 bet pots? Like its such a weird spot that almost never seems to happen outside of people doing slowplays with AA/KK(well and apparently AKo).

if a taggy player gives up with air every time their 4b gets called, that says some interesting things about cheaper ways to rebluff them than 5b shipping pre, doesnt it?

Andrew

I'm glad this AK hand went down, too. I think it's pretty important as it occurs fairly often and could be money found where most people aren't looking.
Also, I hate it when people just call AK preflop, and if I hate it there must be some merit to it.

Well KQs and QJs aren't really blockers as much as fairly standard defense hands for calling. When I think blockers its like A3o and the like since he expects us to ship/fold(which is definitely the stronger argument for calling instead of shipping).

So you have less big Ks and more A-rag and suited K-rag?

I think against most opponents we can safely assign a range of either TT+ or JJ+ and AKo+ to their calling range until we know otherwise, and yes they will play 'perfect' against us with that range. The point is that by shoving he put 1/4 of his stack in dead a not insignificant amount of time. Once we call his cards are live, and he is playing in position against us in a huge pot where we don't have any specific tendencies that we think we can exploit.

In essence, if you shove, you expect to be called when you're behind, but fold out all of his worse hands. Presumably to collect his dead money. Definitely profitable. But, how often is his money dead - ie he's folding his blockers? If he doesn't have a lot of blockers, then you're not collecting the dead money often enough. If he has a lot of blockers, he folds those but you lose out on your chance to dominate them and you never earn his cbet with them.
And like BW said, by calling a 4bet 100 deep, there's not alot of positional advantage.

Your first instinct was pretty good.

I'm not so sure. For one, I definitely don't like conventional wisdom. I am a firm believer that the more people who think something, the less likely it is to be right.
More importantly, I couldn't give a good enough reason why it was better. When I see a spot in a video I don't agree with, I usually know why right away and articulate it in my own head.
The best reason I could come up with is that I'm not going to know when he hits something like an 837r flop w/A3 or K7. But I also realized that that's playing scared money because if he has K7 or A3, he has a ton more Kx or Ax and I may not realize when he hits, the chances he hit are decreased.

I really didn't think we'd need to have a discussion on this hand. I'll try to make it impossible to not see why it's bad.

Holdem manager has a preflop cards tab where you can see what you did with what hands vs what action. After looking at my "Preflop cards" thing in hem, I've found that 37% of the time I 4b it was for value. 63% of the time it was a bluff. This is my BTN 4b, and I 4b a lot.

So, our assumptions with AK are that we hit the flop around 40% of the time, dominate blockers when he has them 12% of the time, and have nothing roughly 60% of the time. Also, when you flat a 4b you tend to over rep your AK as a typical 4b calling range from a tag is AA/KK and sometimes AQ. AA/KK is what most people will put you on (and no, they won't fold QQ on 245 because of it).

So, considering some of the initial 4 bettors range will hit the flop in some way 36-40% of the time, he'll have a value hand or the same hand 37% of the time, he won't always stack off if you hit an A or a K, he might not always bluff, he probably checks back when his stuff pairs weak, he has position and initiative (meaning you will have to c/f some boards), etc, etc, etc, etc, it's a clear shove.

If that argument wasn't convincing, lets try something else (assume we have AK in these situations). If we are up against someone 4b bluffing 65% of the time, would you rather call, shove or fold? If he sometimes plays his hand correctly when he hits a small pair or weak TP, does that make it closer to a shove or a call? If he doesn't auto cbet every time, does it make it closer to a shove or a call? Do you think your opponent will always play in the worst possible way vs you?

I think I've explained this well enough, but I can definitely continue if need be. I just didn't want to get in an argument with someone who is definitely better than me at the game, especially when I've learned some stuff from him.

I really didn't think we'd need to have a discussion on this hand. I'll try to make it impossible to not see why it's bad.

Holdem manager has a preflop cards tab where you can see what you did with what hands vs what action. After looking at my "Preflop cards" thing in hem, I've found that 37% of the time I 4b it was for value. 63% of the time it was a bluff. This is my BTN 4b, and I 4b a lot.

So, our assumptions with AK are that we hit the flop around 40% of the time, dominate blockers when he has them 12% of the time, and have nothing roughly 60% of the time.

So, considering some of the initial 4 bettors range will hit the flop in some way 36-40% of the time, he'll have a value hand or the same hand 37% of the time, he won't always stack off if you hit an A or a K, he might not always bluff, he probably checks back when his stuff pairs weak, he has position and initiative (meaning you will have to c/f some boards), etc, etc, etc, etc, it's a clear shove.

If that argument wasn't convincing, lets try something else. If we are up against someone 4b bluffing 65% of the time, would you rather call, shove or fold? If he sometimes plays his hand correctly when he hits a small pair or weak TP, does that make it closer to a shove or a call? If he doesn't auto cbet every time, does it make it closer to a shove or a call? Do you think your opponent will always play in the worst possible way vs you?

I think I've explained this well enough, but I can definitely continue if need be. I just didn't want to get in an argument with someone who is definitely better than me at the game, especially when I've learned some stuff from him.

I mostly agree with you but you're exagerating a bunch. Remember that most people will 4 bet bluff when they have an A or K blocker so they can't pair 40ish % of the time on the flop without also hitting the same pair. If that happens they are going to stack off a lot. Baluga also said that if they check back the flop then he is going to stop calling with AK and start shoving it again.

We can create an ideal player where this is the most +ev though. First we say that person 4 bet bluffs all of his kx and ax hands(I believe hielko said he does that against someone threebetting a lot in one of his videos, and I'm sure a reasonable amount of regs do the same). Say we take someone who bets once for halfish pot when they miss, and stacks off on the second time everytime they have pair+. Against that opponent you get a ton of extra value from the times he misses and you get stacks everytime he hits one of his blockers and you play pretty well against his pair hands, maybe losing a bit of EV against TT-QQ because you don't get to realize your outs. Actually you can even make those hands shove the flop so you get owned totally by them and you'll probably make it up from the air cbets and dominated hands stacking off. Like I don't have stoxEV but if someone ran it I'm sure this player it would be better to call the 4 bet, but in practice I doubt people play that predictably and you're bound to lose a lot of value in pots you get outplayed in(folding to a cbet on a 456 mono board for instance).

I really didn't think we'd need to have a discussion on this hand. I'll try to make it impossible to not see why it's bad.

Holdem manager has a preflop cards tab where you can see what you did with what hands vs what action. After looking at my "Preflop cards" thing in hem, I've found that 37% of the time I 4b it was for value. 63% of the time it was a bluff. This is my BTN 4b, and I 4b a lot.

So, our assumptions with AK are that we hit the flop around 40% of the time, dominate blockers when he has them 12% of the time, and have nothing roughly 60% of the time. Also, when you flat a 4b you tend to over rep your AK as a typical 4b calling range from a tag is AA/KK and sometimes AQ. AA/KK is what most people will put you on (and no, they won't fold QQ on 245 because of it).

So, considering some of the initial 4 bettors range will hit the flop in some way 36-40% of the time, he'll have a value hand or the same hand 37% of the time, he won't always stack off if you hit an A or a K, he might not always bluff, he probably checks back when his stuff pairs weak, he has position and initiative (meaning you will have to c/f some boards), etc, etc, etc, etc, it's a clear shove.

If that argument wasn't convincing, lets try something else (assume we have AK in these situations). If we are up against someone 4b bluffing 65% of the time, would you rather call, shove or fold? If he sometimes plays his hand correctly when he hits a small pair or weak TP, does that make it closer to a shove or a call? If he doesn't auto cbet every time, does it make it closer to a shove or a call? Do you think your opponent will always play in the worst possible way vs you?

I think I've explained this well enough, but I can definitely continue if need be. I just didn't want to get in an argument with someone who is definitely better than me at the game, especially when I've learned some stuff from him.

i really do appreciate your enthusiasm for learning and I think it will definitely continue to help you become a better player, but there are a lot of holes in this.

Andrew

Solid Gold and some rather unconventional insights.
Thanks, Balugawhale.

Holdem manager has a preflop cards tab where you can see what you did with what hands vs what action. After looking at my "Preflop cards" thing in hem, I've found that 37% of the time I 4b it was for value. 63% of the time it was a bluff. This is my BTN 4b, and I 4b a lot.

Check how often you cbet after 4betting. You don't have to post it, but assuming you have enough 4bets that were flatted for the sample, I'd be surprised you're not cbetting a lot.

So, our assumptions with AK are that we hit the flop around 40% of the time, dominate blockers when he has them 12% of the time, and have nothing roughly 60% of the time. Also, when you flat a 4b you tend to over rep your AK as a typical 4b calling range from a tag is AA/KK and sometimes AQ. AA/KK is what most people will put you on (and no, they won't fold QQ on 245 because of it).

If we both miss 60% of the time, then we dominate those blockers then too. When we hit, we win when we outkick him. We win when we hit a better pair than him.

So, considering some of the initial 4 bettors range will hit the flop in some way 36-40% of the time, he'll have a value hand or the same hand 37% of the time, he won't always stack off if you hit an A or a K, he might not always bluff, he probably checks back when his stuff pairs weak, he has position and initiative (meaning you will have to c/f some boards), etc, etc, etc, etc, it's a clear shove.

It sounds like you're saying he plays perfectly v a 4bet call. I can't agree that anyone who 4bets blockers is not going with top pair. Or that someone 4bet bluffing 63% of the time doesn't cbet much. I also have trouble believing a guy is going to 4bet JJ and cbet/fold a K73 or A55 flop. A flop would have to be pretty bad IMO for a guy not to bet it. That said, if it's true he only cbets for value and knows when that is, then it's back to shoving pre.

For those of you looking to make the best play vs any one you haven't been in a similar spot against, shove. Calling is absolutely bad.

This will be my last post.

Am I pomp?

Time Link to 00:38:00

Any reason for not opening A9o from the cutoff on the bottom left?

Time Link to 00:43:47

A7o hand definitely seems like too thin of a value bet to me. He's going to have to put us on a total float or a mid pair turned into a bluff to call, maybe he can put us on 67 but that's not necessarily in his range.

Also seems like a pretty suspect defence, even if you can turn a profit defending this hand do you think that your standard SSNL player can? Seems optimistic.

Time Link to 00:51:09

With the AQ hand bottom left I'm not so sure he can't bluff the river. He probably puts you on a lot of pocket pairs on the flop, which he may feel you will get stubborn with on the turn because it's such an obvious barrel card that he may convince himself to fire the river again. Earlier you mentioned that people shouldn't get carried away with bluffs but some people will and will convince themselves to empty the clip in a desperate bid to win the pot.

I also don't really see the value in shoving becase obviously nothing better folds and it's difficult to get called by worse. Anything that will call will likely shove or call the river anyway, and our equity is really good.

I assure you that if you ask around in SSNL or MSNL on 2+2, everyone will agree that calling is bad.

WOW - Everyone???? Bold statement.

On the AK hand. Can we agree on a 4Bet range and start with some equity calcs?
Something like this?
JJ+, AKs, A9s-A2s, K8s-K3s, AKo, A8o, A3o

This is the 1/3 value vs 2/3 bluff mentioned above. 40 combos value and 80 bluff.

On the AK hand. Can we agree on a 4Bet range and start with some equity calcs?
Something like this?
JJ+, AKs, A9s-A2s, K8s-K3s, AKo, A8o, A3o

This is the 1/3 value vs 2/3 bluff mentioned above. 40 combos value and 80 bluff.

vs that range calling 4bet pre with AK is the nuts. He only has dominated hands in his range so you like never lose even if you you miss the flop.

that AK is def a shove Andrew, I think you are dismissing what Malefiicus is saying (and others) too quickly...

of course you can argue for specific cases when calling is more +EV than shoving, and the better you can play postflop poker the more you can find those cases (although there isn't much room to maneuver 100bb deep)... but even with a huge skill advantage you are going to be hard pressed to find ways to make more money calling (ESPECIALLY out of position, and pretty much readless) than you will just sticking it in.

the majority of people watching this video should be shoving if only to avoid horribly botching the play of the hand postflop, IMO. AK is easy to misplay when you miss the flop (or even face a way ahead/way behind situation, like the one in this video)

also, if i'm a good opponent on the button playing a strong player in the SB, and i know he's calling my 4-bets with AK, i am very happy.

With the AQ hand bottom left I'm not so sure he can't bluff the river. He probably puts you on a lot of pocket pairs on the flop, which he may feel you will get stubborn with on the turn because it's such an obvious barrel card that he may convince himself to fire the river again. Earlier you mentioned that people shouldn't get carried away with bluffs but some people will and will convince themselves to empty the clip in a desperate bid to win the pot.

I also don't really see the value in shoving becase obviously nothing better folds and it's difficult to get called by worse. Anything that will call will likely shove or call the river anyway, and our equity is really good.

agree that you should be calling the turn here, jamming does nothing good for you

that AK is def a shove Andrew, I think you are dismissing what Malefiicus is saying (and others) too quickly...

of course you can argue for specific cases when calling is more +EV than shoving, and the better you can play postflop poker the more you can find those cases (although there isn't much room to maneuver 100bb deep)... but even with a huge skill advantage you are going to be hard pressed to find ways to make more money calling (ESPECIALLY out of position, and pretty much readless) than you will just sticking it in.

the majority of people watching this video should be shoving if only to avoid horribly botching the play of the hand postflop, IMO. AK is easy to misplay when you miss the flop (or even face a way ahead/way behind situation, like the one in this video)

also, if i'm a good opponent on the button playing a strong player in the SB, and i know he's calling my 4-bets with AK, i am very happy.

i do suppose that many people watching the video should rather shove than flat, but my hypothesis that flatting > shoving is def better from a theory point of view.

I'd assume you're happy because you're going to play perfectly postflop if he's calling your 4bets with AK (i.e. you're never bluffing postflop), but like all things in poker, the fact that you have a plan vs that means that there can be a counter adjustment that would work, etc etc.

again, i'd say that skill/position are much less impt with 55bb already in the pot and 70bb remaining behind.

Andrew

agree that you should be calling the turn here, jamming does nothing good for you

yeah, i think this is better now actually.

jamming does a couple good things for us, but people do bluff here more often than i supposed.

Andrew

Time Link to 00:12:38

blech i typed out a reply and it got lost

anyway, i think you make several serious errors analyzing the A5 herocall.

most important, you try to frame the hand as "what's his valuebetting range?" instead of "what is his valuebetting range and what is his bluff range?"

you need to explain what airballs might reach river and why they might elect to check turn and bet now.

i think it's also erroneous to assume his valuebetting range is Qx+. i think on both points you try to oversimplify his frequencies

agree with shoving AK in that particular hand

i think at about 125-150bb people start 4b bluffing extremely often in this spot (far too often) and they do it not just with nearly random seeming stuff, but also a lot of Ax and KXs hands - these facts make AK more attractive. further, when they have 96s, they will try to rep Axx and Kxx. we will fold 'the best hand' sometimes, but we will induce larger mistakes from them and we will do this instead of a slightly attractive preflop spot.

note i am talking hypothetically here about deeper stacks

Time Link to 00:51:44

the AQ hand - your range should include enough non Ax (at least going into the turn) that most ppl think they can bluff the river. in truth, your turn peel range is a lot stronger, but ppl make bad assumptions about your range on river - a mistake you exploit by calling the turn

at minute 46 you said something like "tuibet" or so... with the JT hand at the upper right table... what the hell is this and how come that ive never heard of it? oO any explanation or link maybe?

at minute 46 you said something like "tuibet" or so... with the JT hand at the upper right table... what the hell is this and how come that ive never heard of it? oO any explanation or link maybe?

the word was "two-way bet", but its supposed to not exist...

...

but it does

the word was "two-way bet", but its supposed to not exist...

...

but it does

Can you give a good example? I always thought they were voodoo and remember a long 2+2 thread a few years ago about it without people agreeing.

Can you give a good example? I always thought they were voodoo and remember a long 2+2 thread a few years ago about it without people agreeing.

i will discuss it at some point once I feel like there is a good way to explain it/good medium for explaining it.

Andrew

very good discussion about the AK hand.
I'm in the shoving camp!
At 200NL people aren't bluffing postflop in a 4bet pot all too often from my experience as they put you on AA/KK/QQ a lot.
And I tend to hit terrible boards when doing such things ^^
I would just wait for a JT9 monotone board (obv no FD for us) or something

Time Link to 00:45:30

Isn't this an easy bet?
We basically bet for value against most Tx (against T9 we have 60%, against JT or KT we have 55%, against Ax we are only 47% dog, against QQ only 48% dog) and there are worse FDs and gutshot he might c/c us with some small percentage of the time.
And we increase the pot for the case we hit (which is pretty likely to happen till the river given our monsterdraw), so we can value bet bigger and he prolly decides to herocall cause his range is obvious or so.

Isn't this an easy bet?
We basically bet for value against most Tx (against T9 we have 60%, against JT or KT we have 55%, against Ax we are only 47% dog, against QQ only 48% dog) and there are worse FDs and gutshot he might c/c us with some small percentage of the time.
And we increase the pot for the case we hit (which is pretty likely to happen till the river given our monsterdraw), so we can value bet bigger and he prolly decides to herocall cause his range is obvious or so.

increasing the pot size for when we hit is not a reason for betting imo. we're playing no limit, we can make it whatever we want whenever want.

you say we're getting value from a range against which we are 50%, doesn't seem like the best value!

Andrew

increasing the pot size for when we hit is not a reason for betting imo. we're playing no limit, we can make it whatever we want whenever want.

you say we're getting value from a range against which we are 50%, doesn't seem like the best value!

Andrew

But surely with your position and equity and the likelihood that the villain has a weakish range means you are going to be a favourite to take down the pot on later streets? So you can get villain to put money in the pot which he will surrender pretty easily on later streets? Possibility of passive dead money no?

But surely with your position and equity and the likelihood that the villain has a weakish range means you are going to be a favourite to take down the pot on later streets? So you can get villain to put money in the pot which he will surrender pretty easily on later streets? Possibility of passive dead money no?

what youre describing is bluffing, and yes, thats why i bet

what youre describing is bluffing, and yes, thats why i bet

Cool, just didn't think it was close at all, I was surprised you considered checking. Also seems nasty to consider it bluffing when we have so much equity.

thanks for the reply!
basically I would have done the right thing for the wrong reason, but it's way better to know the right reason

hi baluga, hi all

i got a question
during your AK hand, you had 77 on the 3rd table (bottom left), time 24 min
why you are 3betting here? value(against which range)? bluff( dont you crush his co-openraising range)? what do you do if he comes a long and 4bets you?

nice discussion about the AK hand btw
nice vid also ...i enjoy it and im going forward to see the rest of the series and hopefully (if I have time) visit your seminar

hi baluga, hi all

i got a question
during your AK hand, you had 77 on the 3rd table (bottom left), time 24 min
why you are 3betting here? value(against which range)? bluff( dont you crush his co-openraising range)? what do you do if he comes a long and 4bets you?

nice discussion about the AK hand btw
nice vid also ...i enjoy it and im going forward to see the rest of the series and hopefully (if I have time) visit your seminar

77 doesn't crush any range pre equity-wise, and i'm almost certainly shipping over a 4bet.

Andrew

we got against: {22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo}
scs 76s+, broadways,Axs+, 22+
52% so we are slightley ahead, if hes the guy who rather opens 75s than KJo, it becomes even more well defined

you ship, cause you think villain 4bet/fold you alot, did I got it?
how frequentley do you do this with hands kinda 77,88,99?

we got against: {22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo}
scs 76s+, broadways,Axs+, 22+
52% so we are slightley ahead, if hes the guy who rather opens 75s than KJo, it becomes even more well defined

you ship, cause you think villain 4bet/fold you alot, did I got it?
how frequentley do you do this with hands kinda 77,88,99?

less likely to do it with 99 than 66 but its all pretty similar. it really depends on image though. i tend to 3b a lot, though. so it works with that

Awesome video. Ive just purchased a DC sub after being with CR for a long while. So far just followed some baluga vids, and man they are freaking awesome. The thought process, and the analysis of hands is done really well.

Time Link to 00:29:25

lol, learned ur alexg lesson the hard way

Time Link to 01:01:01

Thanks Andrew, Enjoyed this video very much. Take care.

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you open QJo utg, what is your utg opening range? do you normally fold QJo and just raise because of the fish in the BB?

on the river, there is a four card straight and you c/f. why dont you overbet bluff to get him off splits?

Time Link to 00:38:31

you are in the SB and the SB who is a huge fish 2.5x. How can you fold 97o there? you have position and a huge skill advantage.

Wow this AK discussion is very interesting and made my head hurt.

Hey Baluga,

Interestion situation when you are calling a 4bet with AKo OOP vs button. You definitely make some good points about him making sometimes bad decisions postflop.

A.)But you dont consider the fact that our range is superstrong, every reg knows that. (Because a good reg knows that another good reg dont call 4bet OOP, because its not profitable. So your opponten a) wont bluff that often if he misses, and b ) if he hits he will easily check behind on the flop, hoping that his hand improves.

B.) And: If he has like QQ/JJ, he will fold if the board is Axx, Kxx, but not his AA/KK, two pairs, AQ.

C.) If we are up against, say TT-AA, and the flop is 9xx, Txx, or something (he has overpair or set), then we have much less equity when the money goes in (assuming that we never fold postflop on 9xx, Txx, Jxx, Qxx etc), relative to preflop equity. For example we are preflop flipping with TT (50/50), when the most money goes in, but when he has an overpair on the flop (or a set), our moneys goes in bad....... I prefer to have 50/50 situation preflop for stacks with some dead money, instead of like having 15% equity when the money goes in on a flop. I have the feeling that the situations where villain is making a poorly timed cbet never will compensate the times that we throw in money in the pot against an overpair/set.

Why are you so convinced that you are right here?

A) in my experience, they expect so often that we will be shoving AK and not flatting that they remain aggressive on A/K hi flops. . clearly a good reg might adjust and stop c-betting (but this is something I discuss, and you should just start shoving again if they do).

B) Again, not really in my experience. People just get confused and end up calling it off anyway.

C) If we're flipping with TT and he flops a set, its pretty much the same situation.

I'm so convincined I'm right... well, i'm covnvinced youre wrong because:
1) people make mistakes when they get confused
2) this line is theoretically correct against hands like Ax/Kx (which make up a lot of people's bluffing ranges). it's probably better to ship vs people who are 4b things like 67s.
3) if you're going to get it in anyway, you might as well give your opponent a chance to make mistakes postflop rather than play perfectly pre.

Again, when you ship your AK, your dream situation is pretty much that you get the other guy to fold? Can't see how that could usually be right.

Controversy!
Andrew

C) If we're flipping with TT and he flops a set, its pretty much the same situation.
w

No its not! When we get in in preflop, we have 50% equity against TT, but when we get on the flop (with like 70bb behind) and if he hits a set - assuming we are never folding- or we get in in on a 9xx flop, a lot of money is going in while we have 0% equity. Thats a big big mistake . The fact that he is flopping a set either way doesnt matter here.

Another thing: I've seen people 4bet/calling AJ/AQ in this spot (being villain on the button)

No its not! When we get in in preflop, we have 50% equity against TT, but when we get on the flop (with like 70bb behind) and if he hits a set - assuming we are never folding- or we get in in on a 9xx flop, a lot of money is going in while we have 0% equity. Thats a big big mistake . The fact that he is flopping a set either way doesnt matter here.

Another thing: I've seen people 4bet/calling AJ/AQ in this spot (being villain on the button)

I think you're missing my point. If both players (TT and AK) are going to get it all in either preflop or postflop then it doesn't really matter what the flop looks like. If i'm not folding, and hes not folding, and he flops a set, thats just good for him.

Andrew