Thanks DJ and Vanessa; great series.
Vanessa and DJ wrap up their series with this episode on relative hand strength. Topics include hand reading, critical thinking, and having discipline.
DJ Sensei and Vanessa Selbst are back with more Unconventional Wisdom. For the anniversary of DeucesCracked.com they revisit some of the topics of the previous series like 3-betting but with deeper discussions and theories. They also discuss the change in the games from a year ago.
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Thanks DJ and Vanessa; great series.
i don't get your T high call why don't you just raise?
he'll just valuetown you so often w/ higher flush draws and you get all of them to fold by raising
a call may be still +EV if he has a lot more lowcards, gs, etc. in his range, but i think he has a lot more often higher flush draws than a 9, so a raise should be more +EV than a call
also, in the limped pot why are you concerned about the reg having KJ there?
in my opinion, he raises KJ against two limpers preflop like always
PS: great series, really thought-provoking thank you
Around 15:00, the AJo hand that you call down, you say it looks like you have an ace, but you could have a 9 as well. As you said, preflop it looks like you have these middle card hands, so you obviously call the flop, and the turn doesn't change anything, so you call the turn. On the river, yeah it's a bluff catcher, but you having an ace or a 9 doesn't change that much, although he could be valuebetting an ace if he had a decent one, like A9+. So he's got a flush or he's trying to get you off a 9.
given that we're that deep in the AJo hand, why cant we turn it into a bluff?
Why first hand isnt a bluffraise > fold > call ?!
hand 2 (AJ) so you woul call river with any Ace, twhats the cutoff?
AJ vs a 100% range on that river is good 18% of the time
T7 why not just bet turn+river? Or do you think he doesnt have a bunch of Ax hands he will fold, or better/worse flush draws that won't call two? I realize sometimes he has a pair but that seems like a huge cooler to me. I just think this needs more of an explanation.
Intresting AJo hand in BB against ParaDogs.
I dont disagree with the way it was played with the reads and assumptions made.
However with what you said he will think of your hand when you just smoothcall preflop a flopp raise is not going to be horrible at all. I like the flopp raise alot.
I think this guy must have been steaming or something. Or he was just trying to take you of a hand like Ax wich is very stupid and rare when you have the kind of image he had. I dont think that many guys even out of those raising every small blind and playing very aggressive in general will keep bluffing oop like this guy did.
Given his image and your call on flopp I think most players even with these tendencies would give up with air, if they are not already steaming or something. I actually think its a good float spot did you call pf with another hand that flopped a gutshot or something.
The strenght on your hand is really strong against a PF range of lets say 90% preflop(?) and I think a floppraise will get played back on alot or even floated out of possition by a creative aggressive player like this. I think a opponent like this will often get paranoid and just be unable to fold any hand when what you are doing is not making any sense to him.
Another intresting hand with TT in possition against springmaster.
This is a great video!!
I dont agree with him beeing weak when he checkraise the flopp.
Ive been experimenting with this and taught about these situations alot with playing oop on a low drawy board.
Basically you often have a hand you are willing to put your money in with on this board, or you have a voulnerable and relativly weak hand.
I guess I think this play comes up from creative players in situations where he gives his opponent alot of respect, where he thinks that every time you raise you will have a hand with good equity. Also he thinks that he himself as a aggressive player is going to be precieved as having nothing when he checks.
If he thinks you will bluffraise this flopp alot and in the case where you are usually making the moves on him and succeeding where you have the momentum he will never check any hand he wants to put money into the pot with. When he has the momentum I think he will check strong hands alot, and I think he will always be going all in with his hand because he thinks that it will induce alot of weird stuff when he is frustrating you with the momentum.
When he check-bluffraise I think its usually a desperation or lazyness play where he just doesnt have the dicipline to fold when he thinks you are betting every time he checks on that board. This happens most of the time when you have the momentum also because if he had the momentum at the moment he would always bet that flopp with air expecting you to fold your air.
I had paused on the flopp action untill this point of my post.
When I see his turnbet I would think that he was never bluffing and he never has a draw without a pair. Basically I think that he has to be affraid of you shipping it at any point in the hand so to actually find a bet has to be something.
I guess he had air and was just trying to leveling you into folding somehow, or he was just on tilt. Normally he cant expect to have alot of fold equity at all beting the turn when you have bet called a big checkraise on the flopp. I mean if you taught he was out of line you would have shoved and not called unless you were slowplaying right?
I myself would almost always show up with JJ>AA against random almost every time there and I would also make that small turn bet and call a shove against someone I taught might not give it any respect and shove whatever over it.
I dont know what he had, but I think you made him fold something like JJ>KK and he is just bad (for folding it). I also noticed it said "chat" over his screen name befoure he folded wich makes me think he actually had something.
He might also just be outlevling himself making a very bad play thinking you will be on a different level then you were on and actually fold a nine or pocket tens etc.
Me myself I would check back that flopp with pocket tens if opponent was on the creative side. Sometimes I would bet against really straight forward opponents just to not give them their 5 ot 6 free outs but generally I do not think like beting that flopp in possition with tens.
I suddenly see why ive been able to run bad in these games. I give opponents too much credit for beeing able to think!
I mean you give people no credit what so ever for beeing able to think and you almost assume they are like tilting every hand. This makes you end up on the right side of it most of the time it seems.
damn!
Same hand as above.
I heard DJ sensei say that all the semibluffs are going to use that ace.
No! not if they are at all competent and not stupid they arent! And they wont bet under half the pot and make a real sucpicious presentation on the turn if they had a draw with no showdown value comitting themselfs to call a shove after opponent have bet>called a drawy dangerous board.
So this is where im different from DJ sensei and say they NEVER have a draw. If I was in that spot with tens I have no idea what I would do to the $96 bet because I bet that flopp so rarely and when I do its against a really straight forward opponent that I wouldnt suspect bluffing the turn from. So I guess id have folded tens on turn if I bet>call flopp and I actually think I will be folding to JJ+ or a set most of the time.
So I guess I would get it the other way around and say on the flopp my hand looks really strong. Its a overpair on a drawy board!
But my relative handstrength is weak and thats why I do not go for the valuebet on the flopp that much.
damn!
what a sick call w that T7!!! obv the sick thing is that you flat called instead of raising... omg
i don't get your T high call why don't you just raise?
he'll just valuetown you so often w/ higher flush draws and you get all of them to fold by raising
a call may be still +EV if he has a lot more lowcards, gs, etc. in his range, but i think he has a lot more often higher flush draws than a 9, so a raise should be more +EV than a call
I was wondering about this as well. I love your thought process Vanessa but I also think that he bets the river so often with air that is better than our air. A small raise or even minraise could be a little more profitable in that he always folds his better air and may even find a fold with a pair since it seems like he just got owned.
The TT hand from ~30-37 is def a weird one. I agree with the idea that our relative strength is pretty high.
I'm not sure if I like the shove at the end though, please to be giving me some feedback. I think when he leads the turn like that he is repping Axcc pretty hard. He probably doesn't have it that often, but certainly sometimes.
Now, I understand that our relative hand strength is high and I also understand that half the deck will complete some draw, so shoving to "protect our hand" is not at all bad.
However, I also think his line just reeks of FPS. c/r the flop then lead the turn for the exact amount of the c/r, WTF? I might be inclined to call here and pretty much call a shove on any river. He will have a draw here a lot but there are several different draws and with such a F'ed up line I think he's bluffing any card that could complete something. So even against the FD we are still hugely +EV to be calling and letting him shove any of the myriad draw completing cards ( I realize shoving 100% of those is a stretch but given his line I really think he's going to jump at a lot of opportunities to bluff). Add that to the fact that our other option is getting it in on the turn, which will get us stacked the times we are behind anyway, and I think I really like a call. Too hopeful?
Luv the series. I was hoping for a smartass forum reply from Vanessa to her critics...thinking outside of the box and a sense of humor guess some people get it, some don't...
Time Link to 00:26:53
I actually feel that most of the time when the OR leads OOP multiway on an A hi board against normal size stacks who are good, its not an A very often. This is probably a standard pot control line i think. on the other hand, i think its really often an underpair, draw, air, or set. so i think the turn check gets crying calls from worse i think.
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