booya! just in time for me to download and watch at work ![]()
DJ and Vanessa tackle the ever expanding pots. We are talking beyond 3-bet pots, to 4-bet pots and back-raising.
DJ Sensei and Vanessa Selbst are back with more Unconventional Wisdom. For the anniversary of DeucesCracked.com they revisit some of the topics of the previous series like 3-betting but with deeper discussions and theories. They also discuss the change in the games from a year ago.
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booya! just in time for me to download and watch at work ![]()
illest for shure
Great vid guys. ![]()
"fslexcduck" I think the back raising is an very intresting concepts, but I do think as u said u get a lot of fold because they know you can CC with big hands pre-flop. I play 21/17 3-bet quite a lot, and I would never ever get a fold there, so I think it's very dependent on your image.
However I think backraising if that is the same as klicking it back, post flop is a more intresting concept, I think there are tons of great oppertunities to min re-raising post flop with all of your range and I have found out that you get a ton of folds with that. Because so many relate min re-raising as a very strong hand by fishes, generally. Is that a concept that you are gonna discuss?
"fslexcduck" I think the back raising is an very intresting concepts, but I do think as u said u get a lot of fold because they know you can CC with big hands pre-flop. I play 21/17 3-bet quite a lot, and I would never ever get a fold there, so I think it's very dependent on your image.
However I think backraising if that is the same as klicking it back, post flop is a more intresting concept, I think there are tons of great oppertunities to min re-raising post flop with all of your range and I have found out that you get a ton of folds with that. Because so many relate min re-raising as a very strong hand by fishes, generally. Is that a concept that you are gonna discuss?
I don't think we discuss postflop minraising by itself in much detail, though there may be some hands throughout the series where we do it(or just make particularly small raises). I don't really think theres a fundamental connection between clicking it back and backraising though.
One comment about the 5bet bluffing thing: I think you underestimate how often he needs to fold to make this play breakeven. I've done some math on 5bet bluffing some time ago, and with 100bb stacks u need people to fold roughly 50% of the time to make it breakeven (and it usually doesn't change a lot if you do this with like Axs, 22 or 87s). Being deeper it probably has to work like 55~60% of the time to make it break even, and I really doubt that he is 4bet bluffing us here more often than that he is making this bet for value.
Really liked this video, but I am spewing like a retarded monkey tonight after watching it. I suck.
I just noticed that in the opening sequence, where it says REMIX, Unconventional is spelled badly wrong (unconvetial.) Pretty funny. Anyway, I enjoyed last week's ep so looking forward to watching this today.
Could someone explain what clicking it back is?
Could someone explain what clicking it back is?
I'm only playing limit but I feel qualified to answer this one: Clicking it back = Minraising.
I just noticed that in the opening sequence, where it says REMIX, Unconventional is spelled badly wrong (unconvetial.) Pretty funny. Anyway, I enjoyed last week's ep so looking forward to watching this today.
LOL, the font was so hard for me to read I never noticed that. I'll get that fixed. ![]()
Rob
Just another case for the legitimacy of backraising, the other day I called a raise with AJo, guy who had squeezed a few times previously 3bet, initial raiser folded, I 4bet, he timed down a bit and typed in "easiest QQ laydown ever" and folded, going on to say how obvious it was I had AA.
You guys can keep a few secrets, ya know ![]()
I just noticed that in the opening sequence, where it says REMIX, Unconventional is spelled badly wrong (unconvetial.) Pretty funny. Anyway, I enjoyed last week's ep so looking forward to watching this today.
Its Remixed, imo.
With the JT hand you guys basically justify the play because the villian looks weak etc,, but you never really talk about what percieved range you are representing with your line.. It just seems like you are really only repping TT or AT, and think that hand reading opponents may peel here w/ AJ, AQ or AK,, is this not an issue?
With the JT hand you guys basically justify the play because the villian looks weak etc,, but you never really talk about what percieved range you are representing with your line.. It just seems like you are really only repping TT or AT, and think that hand reading opponents may peel here w/ AJ, AQ or AK,, is this not an issue?
i am def capable of playing many hands that way - any set, two pair, or even AK... but that really isn't that important in that hand. the key is basically that we're playing against someone who probably isn't a great hand reader, and he is weak. it's mostly the idea of not being afraid to rep big hands when that is consistent with your preflop action (reraising from out of the blinds against an early-mid opener)
Just another case for the legitimacy of backraising, the other day I called a raise with AJo, guy who had squeezed a few times previously 3bet, initial raiser folded, I 4bet, he timed down a bit and typed in "easiest QQ laydown ever" and folded, going on to say how obvious it was I had AA.
You guys can keep a few secrets, ya know
Yes this pleeeeaaaase! I like backraising from time to time before this video!!! :-(
Also with the K10s hand I think I prefer checking to betting as I think he could also put you on KK and you might squeeze out 1 more street of value. That was just my gut instinct when I saw the flop, I was like "oh, he's gone check hurrr"
Great video as always, thanks.
great video.
great stuff, even if I am not sure I like you to promote flatting behind so much, it's a very powerful play and I made quite a lot of chips with this the last months, last but not least because people constantly underestimate you.
about th JTs hand around 35' (delayed float). on what range would you put villain here if he bets out the river himself a little less the half pot, and what play would you advocate?
was it really a minraise?? ![]()
Great video, awesome series so far.
On the JThh turn check/raise hand you raise to 270 over his 75 bet. Was there a particular reason for your sizing? I.e. you leave him 195 to call, rather than making it say 280 to leave him 205 to call.
Do you think one amount looks stronger from his perspective and pick that? ...or do you try to balance your betsizings here with hands you'd want to get it in with.
Great video, awesome series so far.
On the JThh turn check/raise hand you raise to 270 over his 75 bet. Was there a particular reason for your sizing? I.e. you leave him 195 to call, rather than making it say 280 to leave him 205 to call.
Do you think one amount looks stronger from his perspective and pick that? ...or do you try to balance your betsizings here with hands you'd want to get it in with.
I don't think it matters too much either way in a spot like this, our c/r basically implies that we're playing for stacks so I don't think he'll ever float a hand he's not gonna stack off. I guess I'd bluff as small as I think would be effective.
It seems like I'm a bit late with this but I keep rewatching this series since it's so great ![]()
Anyway, I've got two questions. Hopeyfully someone still browses this thread ![]()
Directly in the first hand (you flat KK from MP vs a BTN 3bet and c/c a 743 2tone flop 150BBs deep) I really like this play a lot but what very often makes me wanna raise the flop is that I'm lost on tough turn cards. For example how would you continue on an ace or a spade that brings the 3flush? You talk about still getting at least one street of value vs QQ when an ace peels off which implies that you still c/c or c/r the turn, right? But if we c/c either one of those tough turns, he can play rivers pretty perfectly since it's very unlikely for us to c/c an ace on the flop and we don't have that many spades in our preflop and flop range as well. Basically I expect him to 2barrel those cards every single time because he can rep both hands a lot while we can't which makes calling down with KK really ugly.
Btw: Would you also flat QQ in this spot? Because then the situation is basically the same except that we're now also worried about a K rolling off.
Question 2 is about hand 2 in minute 14. We 3bet A7o BvB, villain calls, we check back J74 rb and our delayed cbet on a blank J gets checkminraised. We call and villain checks to us on a Q river. Now Vanessa talks about bluffing him off of 88, 99, TT if she had a T9 type hand but actually decides to check back because she beats enough of his range. Now you probably agree that once villain checks the river he very very rarely has better than TT. Given that, what is wrong with still turning our A7 into a bluff? We don't gain or loose sth vs hands we beat (actually, we even give him a chance to herocall) but we might fold out 88-TT. The only thing I'm worried about is that he rivered a Q of some sort and now goes into c/c mode but that's probably pretty rare given his play on earlier streets.
What do you think?
Directly in the first hand (you flat KK from MP vs a BTN 3bet and c/c a 743 2tone flop 150BBs deep) I really like this play a lot but what very often makes me wanna raise the flop is that I'm lost on tough turn cards. For example how would you continue on an ace or a spade that brings the 3flush? You talk about still getting at least one street of value vs QQ when an ace peels off which implies that you still c/c or c/r the turn, right? But if we c/c either one of those tough turns, he can play rivers pretty perfectly since it's very unlikely for us to c/c an ace on the flop and we don't have that many spades in our preflop and flop range as well. Basically I expect him to 2barrel those cards every single time because he can rep both hands a lot while we can't which makes calling down with KK really ugly.
Btw: Would you also flat QQ in this spot? Because then the situation is basically the same except that we're now also worried about a K rolling off.
I'm just not that concerned about anything but an Ace on the turn, and like we discussed in the vid, we think he'll barrel the turn a ton with a wide range. Also, I just don't think he's going to give us action with that many worse hands on the flop when we checkraise. And yes I'd probably play QQ the same here. We're concerned about a K then, but its also a great barreling card so again we can probably extract more bluffs from him.
Question 2 is about hand 2 in minute 14. We 3bet A7o BvB, villain calls, we check back J74 rb and our delayed cbet on a blank J gets checkminraised. We call and villain checks to us on a Q river. Now Vanessa talks about bluffing him off of 88, 99, TT if she had a T9 type hand but actually decides to check back because she beats enough of his range. Now you probably agree that once villain checks the river he very very rarely has better than TT. Given that, what is wrong with still turning our A7 into a bluff? We don't gain or loose sth vs hands we beat (actually, we even give him a chance to herocall) but we might fold out 88-TT. The only thing I'm worried about is that he rivered a Q of some sort and now goes into c/c mode but that's probably pretty rare given his play on earlier streets.
What do you think?
Its pretty tough to represent anything that strong on the end here given our line, so I'm not that excited about trying to bluff him off a slightly better hand. I'm pretty happy to just check back and beat his bluffs.
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