Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (High Stakes)

Live Jive: Episode One

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Live Jive: Episode One by DeathDonkey, mike l.

DeathDonkey and mike l. kick off their series discussing some high stakes live hands Mike played and they continue their rhetoric of debating correct plays.

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Mike L and DeathDonkey discuss higher stakes live LHE hands that Mike has played. They focus the discussion on exploiting common errors from brick and mortar opponents.

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deathdonkey mike l. live jive live play ipod friendly high stakes

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Busting you

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575 posts
Joined 12/2007

very cool video guys.I'm looking forward to some live poker next week around the holiday. This series is perfect timing imo. Does mike L always play with 10x as many chips as everyone else? lol.

Posted over 6 years ago

DosXX

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384 posts
Joined 01/2008

I'm excited for this.

Hand 1 - I like the flop 3 bet for the reasons you guys mentioned, also we can 3bet flop, bet turn, and check river for showing down less than the call/call/call line.

Hand 2- What do you think about c/r any board pair?

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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5385 posts
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Hand 2- What do you think about c/r any board pair?



On which street?

Posted over 6 years ago

Juice

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431 posts
Joined 02/2010

very cool video guys.I'm looking forward to some live poker next week around the holiday. This series is perfect timing imo. Does mike L always play with 10x as many chips as everyone else? lol.




Yes... and his Ipod where hes watching Disney movies instead of getting reads on his opponents ;-P Haha sorry to call you out Mike seeing as how we've only met once... Ill say hi next time I see you at the Merce

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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Yes... and his Ipod where hes watching Disney movies instead of getting reads on his opponents ;-P Haha sorry to call you out Mike seeing as how we've only met once... Ill say hi next time I see you at the Merce



Fwiw not that he needs much defending but Mike has a really sick ability to recall specific things about people that he has played with in the past. I'll ask him about a guy and he'll be like "oh yeah that guy is crazy I remember this 15/30 hand we played 6 years ago..." and then recount a HH to me.

Posted over 6 years ago

Juice

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Fwiw not that he needs much defending but Mike has a really sick ability to recall specific things about people that he has played with in the past. I'll ask him about a guy and he'll be like "oh yeah that guy is crazy I remember this 15/30 hand we played 6 years ago..." and then recount a HH to me.



^^ thats sick... and I was lawl kidding, I do the exact same thing and his general strategy probably owns my paying attention super hard strategy.

Posted over 6 years ago

Amaryllis

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432 posts
Joined 09/2007

Fantastic video. 48 minutes flew. This is going to be another great season for LHE.

On the last hand, seat two must have been lying when he said QJ. People who muck never say the truth about their hand imo. He looks like a set of sevens very much, or a set of deuces.

Posted over 6 years ago

DosXX

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384 posts
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BigBadBabar

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4559 posts
Joined 03/2007

Fantastic video. 48 minutes flew. This is going to be another great season for LHE.

On the last hand, seat two must have been lying when he said QJ. People who muck never say the truth about their hand imo. He looks like a set of sevens very much, or a set of deuces.



I thought they were talking about the guy who folded the turn.

Posted over 6 years ago

numbnuts007

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87 posts
Joined 02/2008

Time Link to 00:12:59

I don't love a check on the turn here. How much do you guys hate just betting? I think it can be somewhat player dependent, but I really don't want to give a free card to two players when I can charge them and I'm more than happy to bet/3b a reasonably aggressive player in that game, especially if it goes bet/raise/cold call. We end up 3banging anyway, why not make sure that something goes in?

As i type this, I'm thinking that betting would be best against the extreme player types (super passive or super agro) and c/r would only work against guys that will put in cheap little semi bluffs or value bets in the form of a bet when checked to, but aren't really willing to raise for value aggressively (probably most of the commerce 40 players). Still not convinced it's best though.

Posted over 6 years ago

Amaryllis

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432 posts
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I thought they were talking about the guy who folded the turn.



No, Mike specifically says seat 2.

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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I don't love a check on the turn here. How much do you guys hate just betting? I think it can be somewhat player dependent, but I really don't want to give a free card to two players when I can charge them and I'm more than happy to bet/3b a reasonably aggressive player in that game, especially if it goes bet/raise/cold call. We end up 3banging anyway, why not make sure that something goes in?

As i type this, I'm thinking that betting would be best against the extreme player types (super passive or super agro) and c/r would only work against guys that will put in cheap little semi bluffs or value bets in the form of a bet when checked to, but aren't really willing to raise for value aggressively (probably most of the commerce 40 players). Still not convinced it's best though.



Yeah the player type you describe in your last part of your post is just sooooo common in these games. I think I would bet this more often in both smaller and bigger games.

Posted over 6 years ago

OnTheRail15

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Time Link to 00:19:21

Why do you think it's relevant that he dark bets here? I think most people bet any flop after this preflop action, so I assume you think it informs the strength of his hand? If my assumption is correct, do you think it denotes strength or weakness or something else?

Posted over 6 years ago

BigBadBabar

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Why do you think it's relevant that he dark bets here? I think most people bet any flop after this preflop action, so I assume you think it informs the strength of his hand? If my assumption is correct, do you think it denotes strength or weakness or something else?



Related to this, what are your guys' thoughts on dark bets in general and what they denote? I've always felt like (from live regs) it means more strength than normal, but I have a small live sample. When it's vs other online guys I know then we do it usually just messing around or because we know that we always cbet anyway.

Posted over 6 years ago

Amaryllis

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Related to this, what are your guys' thoughts on dark bets in general and what they denote? I've always felt like (from live regs) it means more strength than normal, but I have a small live sample. When it's vs other online guys I know then we do it usually just messing around or because we know that we always cbet anyway.


I agree with your live assessment; it usually reflects confidence. Additionally, I think it gives some info about the player in general: I think most of the time, someone who bets blind for any reason, will tend to be on the LAG side.

Online, I don't know. If he's multi-tabling, he may use the auto bet button quite a bit without us being to deduce much out of it.

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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Comprehensive post on dark betting:

It means different things on the flop and on later streets:

Flop dark betting:

From a truly good player: it is meaningless, it means they had last action and will c-bet 100% here

From a mediocre thinking player (similar to the hand from this video): Almost always means they have a good hand but not AA. I think subconsciously they are concerned about flinching / showing sadness if the flop is awful for them. Dark betting is "safer" in their mind.

From a bad player: Nearly always a weak hand

Turn/River dark betting:

From a truly good player: You will almost never see this if they are truly good, they want to at least pretend they are going to consider on various cards. If pressed I would say they tend to have a good to very good hand but not the nuts.

From a mediocre player: ALWAYS THE NUTS. These guys are closet nits on the big streets.

From a very bad player: 90% ALWAYS THE NUTS. 10% they have a big draw and they are going to bluff the river anyway so they just dark bet it.

Posted over 6 years ago

a2sauce

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great vid, opened up my mind

one thing i realize i almost never do in the commerce 20 or 40 is c/r with the initiative, how bad is this? how much value am i losing? with the kk hand, what other turn cards do you feel a c/r is best?

looking forward to ep. 2

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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great vid, opened up my mind

one thing i realize i almost never do in the commerce 20 or 40 is c/r with the initiative, how bad is this? how much value am i losing? with the kk hand, what other turn cards do you feel a c/r is best?

looking forward to ep. 2



A lot? It's nearly the ideal limit for people to be brave and aggressive when you give them a little rope, but not really raise you when you bet unless you are beat.

Posted over 6 years ago

jesse8888

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Time Link to 00:26:32

I really like a bet/3 with two pair on this hand. You have the second nuts on a board with no flush draws or open ended straight draw possible. Nobody raised preflop so it seems impossible that you're beat unless exactly A9 is out there lurking about (AA, KK, 99, and AK would all have needed to not raise preflop), and protection isn't that much of a concern. You're likely to get raised by an ace somewhere (there are 6 opponents!) and then you can three bet and it's just beautiful.

Posted over 6 years ago

DosXX

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I really like a bet/3 with two pair on this hand. You have the second nuts on a board with no flush draws or open ended straight draw possible. Nobody raised preflop so it seems impossible that you're beat unless exactly A9 is out there lurking about (AA, KK, 99, and AK would all have needed to not raise preflop), and protection isn't that much of a concern. You're likely to get raised by an ace somewhere (there are 6 opponents!) and then you can three bet and it's just beautiful.



Do you think most aces that get limped here will raise this flop once you bet?

Posted over 6 years ago

jesse8888

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Do you think most aces that get limped here will raise this flop once you bet?



Yes I do actually and I realize this is something that Mike and I disagree on and he has more experience in the game so perhaps I should defer to him. But he did bet the hand (I posted before I saw that) and the discussion was that he didn't want to 3 bet and I disagree because like I said he has the 2nd nuts.

Posted over 6 years ago

AlanBostick

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41:09 et seq. -- How close is it, really between folding and calling?

I mean, Seat 3 has bet and raised at every opportunity, and we have no reason to expect they won't continue to do so. Seat 3's cap hides the full strength of Seat 2's hand (although of course check-3-betting is a strong move). Is Seat 3 gunning for a free turn card? Will they get one if Seat 2 really does have a flush?

Sure, everyone might shut down and let us see a showdown for merely two more big bets. If we could be reasonably sure of that, then, yeah, call down. But my issue is that I see a reasonable likelihood that a multiway pot will go multiple bets on the turn, with our lousy aces squeezed in the middle. Too much likelihood we're behind, very little to draw to if we are, and too many cards to fade if we're ahead.

As I was watching the video I was ready for Mike to fold, and was astonished at DD's argument for continuing. What am I missing here?

Posted over 6 years ago

DeathDonkey

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I've seen a lot of spots in my life where all hell breaks loose on the flop, and then on turn everyone checks! And it might even check down on river. Live players loveeeee to shovel in flop bets and hateeee to put in turn bets generally speaking

Posted over 6 years ago

mike l.

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Fantastic video. 48 minutes flew. This is going to be another great season for LHE.

On the last hand, seat two must have been lying when he said QJ. People who muck never say the truth about their hand imo. He looks like a set of sevens very much, or a set of deuces.



but people rarely understate their hand when lying about it. so if QJ was a lie it'd be more likely he had K high or small pair or something he felt was embarassing.

Posted over 6 years ago

mike l.

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but aren't really willing to raise for value aggressively (probably most of the commerce 40 players).



you answered your own question in the end. well said.

Posted over 6 years ago

mike l.

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re: dark bets.

i think from most players it means strength. if someone does them all the time (as i have from time to time) it means they think their opponent is so bad and so loose and passive they dont really care to think about what that player has unless raised. or that they are a total maniac and think it's fun to dark bet. i usually fall into the former camp. in fact in some hu spots with a pair i will bet and not even look at the board just look at the opponent, and do so on every street. how they react to the board and the dark bets tells you a lot more then looking down and seeing "oh look it's Q54-9 and i have 77". if your opponent is hellbent for showdown with A high type hands and 22 (most live players) then why would you want any card on the board detract you from value betting your brains out. sometimes ive dragged the pot and never once looked at the board.

i check dark a lot too. on the flop heads up i never donk (although there are great arguments in favor of it) so my check is automatic, just as their bet usually is. now im last to act on the flop.

Posted over 6 years ago

johnnykakes241

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Time Link to 00:08:55

so if we don't have the 8 of Club are we still calling this turn?

Posted about 5 years ago

Zeke Ferrari

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27 posts
Joined 09/2012

Time Link to 00:31:48

I recognize this video is from 2010 and I'm nearly 4 years late to the party, but is there any merit in the early position LRR strategy that DD and Mike are talking about here in today's live games?

Posted almost 3 years ago



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