Poker Video: MTT/SNG by vandweller (Mid Stakes)

Where's the link for the chart?

Totally amazing! ty

Tis cool man, awesome vid btw, loving it. Especially liking the interactive nature of using the chart alongside the vid to get accustomed to it, just want my hungry mits on it now, save me from making retarded sb shoves on the bubble forever more hopefully, godspeed and welcome to DC.

I think they are still asleep over on the west coast, so I'm going to just post my own links to the chart and the little excel helper calculator...

Chart: http://www.pokervan.net/uploads/1/1/0/1/1101451/sbse_0.97.pdf
Helper Calc: http://www.pokervan.net/uploads/1/1/0/1/1101451/sngcalc.xls

Vandweller is Jeff Garlin or he just sounds like him?

Hey, I recognize this vid. Are you doing a weekly series now?

Not yet. Probably 2 or 3 Variety Hour videos a month for the upcoming season. After that who knows...

You mentioned adjusting the chart for antes but didn't really go into detail. Do you just add up the antes and add them onto the blinds or do you have another method?

In general, and as an approximation, to adjust from a no-ante structure to an ante-structure, take the total preflop pot (the blinds plus the total antes) and multiply by 2/3 (or divide by three and multiply by two, if that's how you think). That's your "adjusted BB". Then proceed strategically as if that is the amount of the BB.

So for example, let's say it's the 100/200 25a level on Stars, it's 4-handed, and you have a 10BB stack. The total preflop pot is 100+200+(4*25), or 400. 400 x 2/3 = 266. You would then have 2000/266 or about 7.5ABB. Proceed then as if you had 7.5BB.

As I said it's an approximation and there are differences between playing with 7.5 real BB and 7.5 ABB, but it's pretty darn close. For purpose of measuring reward on the chart, however, it's the same.

(The main difference in playing in actual games is that you will have a larger stack in absolute terms with a 7.5ABB stack than a 7.5BB stack, which means you will generally have more equity at risk. This is counterbalanced to an extent by the fact that when you shove, you are shoving a larger stack at your opponents who will consequently have to be calling tighter.)

Incidentally you can do the same kind of adjustment in a no-ante structure when it's your turn to consider shoving, but because of a bustout, there is no small blind. Just take the amount of the BB and multiply by 2/3. That's your adjusted BB. So, if you are on the button, and there is no SB. The BB is 200 and you have 1200 chips. 200 x .66 = 132. 1200/132 = about 9ABB. So you would then shove as if you had 9BB.

Sick vid. And your closing credits point of thinking about the 4 key aspects I found to be a big lesson. In doing the end quiz, my only incorrect response was the one that I thought was obvious and didn't think about completely(#13).

I've stayed away from S&G for the past year and a half or so and am just recently playing them again, but primarily am a 6 max player. I was thinking about how to adjust the chart you've developed to 6 max payouts and it seems that consolidating some sections, most specifically the equity column(adjusting 4th to 3rd and starting at a higher beginning point number) may be possible. I'm not too familiar w/S&G wiz, but with trial and error, do you feel it would considerably difficult to verify the results? Or am I over confident in my thoughts on the ease of adaptation and should consider a new approach completely?

I've stayed away from S&G for the past year and a half or so and am just recently playing them again, but primarily am a 6 max player. I was thinking about how to adjust the chart you've developed to 6 max payouts and it seems that consolidating some sections, most specifically the equity column(adjusting 4th to 3rd and starting at a higher beginning point number) may be possible. I'm not too familiar w/S&G wiz, but with trial and error, do you feel it would considerably difficult to verify the results? Or am I over confident in my thoughts on the ease of adaptation and should consider a new approach completely?

Of all the things that would need to be adjusted, the equity would require the most work, but the basic principle is the same, when you are way behind in last place with a tiny stack, you have little equity, when you are way ahead in 1st and the other guys are screwed, you have a lot of equity. How the dynamics exactly work out, I haven't charted, though.

I do have a classroom video planned (mostly written) about how to analyze different SNG payout structures and translate that into basic early, late, and ITM strategies, e.g. 6max, DoN, Steps and other satellites, etc. So that video will discuss a lot of the theoretical adjustments you will have to make.

In general though, the same SNG maxim applies to 6max as it does to 9max. "Fold early, push late". The main adjustments derive from differences in what I call "equity ceilings"...the fact that in a 9max the most equity you can have is 50% of the prizepool, whereas in 6max it's 67% or 70% or 75% depending on which site you are talking about. The higher the equity ceiling the closer to a cash game it is, and therefore the lower the "bias against confrontation" as AMT calls it (or "flip aversion" as I call it, because it's fewer syllables and sounds less math-y) and therefore the more loosely you should play as a general tendency.

As I said, I have a whole video coming out about that at some point, so stay tuned.

Yeah, this one's on me, I was supposed to get those up on our server but have been slllllllllammmmmmmmmmed on a few other things. Here you go though.

http://static.deucescracked.com/resources/sngcalc.xls
http://static.deucescracked.com/resources/sbse_0.97.pdf

tytytytyty

Very very nice
Watching this Video will definetly change my approach to playing SNGs.
Especially the Tournament Equity is something i didnt take into account as much as i maybe should have so far.
I`d really love to see more Videos by you soon.

I think that really is the difference between beginners and non-beginners. Beginner strategy, as generally presented, is BB-centric, as in "you are risking 7BB to win 1.5BB", as if every time you have 7BB is same as every other time, or 1.5BB means the same in every instance. Or "call an all-in whenever you are getting 2-to-1 and close the action". Well that has nothing to say whatever about equity which is the actual currency of the game. Maybe that two isn't worth one-ing, equity wise! Once you become more equity-conscious, you will really become aware of the fact that BBs are almost totally irrelevant from a risk perspective.

Anyway, maybe I'm revealing too much from my future videos. Glad you like this one and hope you like my future ones.

Awesome..Has to be a top contender for "Best Newcomer Vid" at this Years Poker Training Video Oscars.

Is to Poker Training vids what The Godfather Trilogy is to the Movie World........

Has raised the bar and this standard will be hard to maintain but have every confidence and eagerly await your next production......

Awesome..Has to be a top contender for "Best Newcomer Vid" at this Years Poker Training Video Oscars.

Is to Poker Training vids what The Godfather Trilogy is to the Movie World........

Has raised the bar and this standard will be hard to maintain but have every confidence and eagerly await your next production......

Stalker.

Excellent video. Surviving the bubble is very important in SNG. Without it you don't get paid.

Anyway, any chance of making a continuation video on how to win 1st place after surviving the bubble. This is the part I need to improve. Being ITM @ 40% makes me a profitable player but to be SIGNIFICANTLY profitable I need to win 1st place more often than not. I have a lot of 3rd and 2nd place wins but 1st Place for the most part eludes me.

Yes. That kind of video is on my short list.

Briefly though, don't use the word "surviving" the bubble. The goal isn't survival, the goal is making as many +EV moves as possible. Sometimes that means shutting down and going into survival mode, and sometimes that means going insane and shoving nearly every hand.

Keep in mind that first place is won and lost generally by accumulating chips when it's 4-6 handed with high blinds. As it was once said, "Tournaments aren't won; they are stolen." So if you don't like your finish distribution (something that can take many many games to converge, by the way) generally that is more indicative of your medium and late game rather than your play once you make the money.

That being said, there are certainly things you can do once you are in the money and there is a definite stack-dependent strategy, but it's bit harder to outright steal a tournament win once everyone is safely ITM. I will get into this in more detail in subsequent videos, but I will note that many otherwise savvy players are far too tight when it is three handed and they are in 3rd place trailing by a good margin. One first is better than two thirds, so if anywhere there is a maniac buried deep inside your soul, that is the time to let him out.

Keep in mind that first place is won and lost generally by accumulating chips when it's 4-6 handed with high blinds. As it was once said, "Tournaments aren't won; they are stolen." So if you don't like your finish distribution (something that can take many many games to converge, by the way) generally that is more indicative of your medium and late game rather than your play once you make the money

That being said, there are certainly things you can do once you are in the money and there is a definite stack-dependent strategy, but it's bit harder to outright steal a tournament win once everyone is safely ITM. I will get into this in more detail in subsequent videos, but I will note that many otherwise savvy players are far too tight when it is three handed and they are in 3rd place trailing by a good margin. One first is better than two thirds, so if anywhere there is a maniac buried deep inside your soul, that is the time to let him out.

The way I play STT Regluar Speed SNGs is generally playing very very tight early letting the other players make mistakes and bust out then increasingly I get looser going to mid and late game, specially when the table gets short-handed and the blinds are high. However, ITM I find myself most of the time relatively short stack and I do turn into a super aggro maniac as this point, although in-order to get heads-up I do need to catch some cards. In regards to finish distribution, to date I have played around 700 STT SNGs.

BTW, excellent exercise. 400 games into my SNG, one of my leaks that I kinda fix was SB shoving which I was not doing enough or at all unless I got a monster of a hand but right now I am shoving too much and losing a lot of it because I was not analyzing the situation correctly. With your chart and after doing the exercise/drill I could definitely see that it will help me visualize the situation correctly and make shoves at the correct spots. I'll do more of the drills.

This doesn't seem to work very well when you are in 1st pushing into a wide calling 2nd.

Example:
400/800
CO: 2261
BT: 1600
SB: 6954 32o
BB: 2685 calls 50%

Hand: 1, BB: 8, EQ: 4+2, Call: 0
This sums up to 15, quite a bit off of 22. Easy push, though, according to SNG Wiz.

I tried to note explicitly in the video that the chart doesn't quite correctly capture when you have a bad hand with bad fold equity and the stacks are widely skewed. This is exactly the kind of hand you are bringing up. The main reason this is the case is because the chart over-estimates your equity loss here. You have 37% equity currently, and if you were to get called and lose, you would still have 30% for a loss of only 7%. This means the equity at risk column should rate 12 points and not 6. That would bring you up to 21 points which is pretty darn close to 22.

The idea of the chart is only to present a basic schema for one way of evaluating the four shove factors, not to capture every nuance. As I also said in the video, the chart is in no way complete or finalized (thus being version 0.97 as opposed to 1.xx), so there are dozens of hand examples which you could make up which the chart wouldn't capture. That being said, any specific additions or revisions that any of you guys have that make it better would be welcomed, probably incorporated, and definitely credited if used.

I have been working on a small program (with lots of radio buttons) to quickly sum up the points. And I also noticed this phenomena.

Now we adjust down 1 point if the BB's stack is 2x our stack. Maby we should adjust up 2-3 points if our stack is at least 2 times the BB. Maby 1 point up if we covers him and there are shorter stacks at the table he covers and up 3 points if we cover him 2x or more?

I also noticed that a fold can be a push if the pot (if we get called) gives us atleast 2:1 in potodds. So I added another 3p if we had min 2:1 in odds if getting called (wich in that particular hand gave me a call instead of a fold)

great vid. i'm a bubble master now

New to sng, watched your other vid first then now this one. Pretty f'n sweet dude. Quick question how would I go about adjusting this chart for shoving from the button? Even a general idea would be great then I could try and work something out and test through sngwiz. Keep up the good work anyhow.

I would say that the most important thing to do is not get caught up with the particulars of the chart. Instead, take away the general point to be constantly monitoring and assessing where you stand relative to the four factors in every decision you make in all phases of the tournament.

This doesn't require that you give a numerical total to your situation at all times. What it does require is that you say, "boy I need 2+ factors well in my favor to make a shove here... do I have that?"

And then remember all that in the context of the following: don't sweat close decisions. The closer the decision, the less it matters what you actually do. If the difference is 0.1% between folding and shoving, there are probably reasons in either direction that would justify each. And in a say, $10 SNG, a 0.1% is one penny. People don't lose at SNGs because of pennies either way. They lose because they make massive blunders dollars at a time and don't know it. So make sure you are getting the big decisions right. If you are actually thinking through your close decisions and going with your best judgement, the pennies will take care of themselves.

All this is to say that I'm not sure it matters all that much how to adjust the chart for the button, and I honestly haven't done any specific work in that direction because I never found it necessary. I just make sure to pay attention to what I'm doing and why in the context of those four factors.

Practically speaking though, the things that don't really change are the risk and reward. Fold equity obviously is the most obvious change, because now you have to fold an additional player. The hand strength one has always been the most troublesome column to me because it ranks hand strength on an absolute scale when it should be "hand strength WHEN CALLED", which is something very different. How this column changes having to get through two players, I haven't entirely thought about, but I suspect it doesn't change by much.

i just started to play SNG again. glad i looked up this vid. very excited to get to the bubble and see how i do with this new info. when i started to watch i wanted to shoot myself cause i HATE math. but you did such a good job that i DO understand it. it is a long very worth while video. def want to see many more vids from you sir!!!! looking forward to watching the next 1 that i see is posted! 5 stars!!

great video van. you really are one of the best instructors out there. anyway, in what ways should I be adjusting the SB shove chart for different payout structures, such as a 65/35 6-max SNG?

Keep em coming...please!

Please repost the address for the chart. Previously posted ones don't load for me. Thanks

Vandweller,

Have you ever attempted to adjust the tournament equity column in a way to make this applicable to MTTs, or in a way to adjust for the possibility of two callers (IE from the button?)

like the guys said before, great vid obv

But I have a question regarding the calculation of EQUITY:
Take example number 5 (Q7o). The stacksizes after pushing and winning the hand are the following:
CO 7750
BU 2920
SB (Hero) 3160
BB 1470

which takes us from 4th to 2nd place, not barely to 3rd
(similar problem in the next hand: if we double, we're in 3rd place)

As noone of the other guys here got up to the same problem as I did in this hand, I'm not sure if you just "miscalculated" this one or if I got something wrong with the EQUITY-calculation.

Could it be that you do not consider the SB to your stack?

Can someoe tell me how to find the chart? I got halfway through the video and got stuck when I couldnt find the chart. Help would be appreciated. Thanks

http://static.deucescracked.com/resources/sngcalc.xls
http://static.deucescracked.com/resources/sbse_0.97.pdf

Very nice video thank you very much for that! But one thing I dont understand. Where do I get the call % from? Is it the VPIP?

no it's not. You'll have to guess it depending on his stats.

Just signed up and watched this video. Wow, what an eye opener. Thank you! I need a few more views to digest it all but you have a great way of explaining things and not talking down to the listener. Bravo!

I had a question on how you can modify this chart wtih regards to M-Zone. I use Tournament Indicator and as I'm sure you are well aware it gives you a lot of info at a glance that I think can be plugged into the chart with some modification. Would you be able to provide any insight into a conversion table for using Tournamen Indicator? Things such as:

EV and Sklansky group ranking for your hand strength
Your M-Zone # cmpared to others and how it relates to #BB and Equity

I don't know if they apply effectively but I thought I would ask.

Thank you for you amazaing video and chart. It's incredible!

SM

i kinda use the VPIP to make an educated guess on the villains hand range

Great video!

Just joined deucescracked about a week ago, and most,if not all of the videos I've seen have been very good. Am quite a nuub with computers, can't get the link with the charts to open.. Does anyone know other links to the chart?

Best regards D

Thank you very much!

It worked fine now

Fantastic video! Thanks!

That said, I have a question. I likely missed something, so hopefully someone can straighten me out here.

Regarding Equity, at 1:16.35, with 82o.

We have 2210. BB has 5160. Button has 3380. CO has 3350.

For the equity, you said that if we doubled up we would be in second place. However, if we double up, that means we will be taking 2210 from the first place player in the BB knocking him down to 2950 and putting us at 4420 which would be first place.

Did I do that correctly? Are we not supposed to account for the loss of the opponents chips when we win? Could you clarify this for me - and let me know if I am missing something or miscalculating something?

Thanks!

Yeah don't take that too literally. The idea behind that is just to determine how close or far away in chips you are from the other players.

Gotcha. Thanks. I was not sure, since, of course, going from 4th to 1st with a double up would mean one less point for our equity score.

Again, great series. I am enjoying you Real Life SNG series as well - that first episode in particular helped a lot more than just my poker game. Thank you for that.