Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Micro/Small Stakes)

Brutal match imo.

Sadly not too many interesting hands since Chuck just kept flopping the nuts every hand, nothing much you can do about that I guess.

But wtf happened in that 97 vs J4 hand (about 15:00 in)? On the surface of it it just seems to me that you both just spazzed out here, so I'd like to hear some of your reasoning behind your plays.
Chuck, why are you 3betting turn? Isn't that a standard calldown with 2nd pair on a drawy board? Were you trying to induce a bluffcap?
Rob, why did u think this was a good spot to bluff? What rivers were u planning to fire again?

A more general note: Joe, what's wrong with bluffing dry paired boards oop? I think against a thinking opponent you just HAVE to make that part of your game plan.

Oh, and I know I'm not the first to say this, but Joe is such a preflop nit in this game :-)

Wow bluffing dry paired boards OOP is bad? Joe I don't know about that.

As far as the 97 hand I had a good feeling rob was FSDR'ing there. I felt that he would be taking a K or 7 to the river and then raising, which was his strat thus far in the match, so when he actually raised me on the turn I figured to have the best hand quite often.

As far as the 97 hand I had a good feeling rob was FSDR'ing there. I felt that he would be taking a K or 7 to the river and then raising, which was his strat thus far in the match, so when he actually raised me on the turn I figured to have the best hand quite often.

OK that makes sense. (And it provides evidence that the "waiting for the river to raise" move can be brutally effective when used sporadically.)

Some comments:

Chuck now you know why you're going to run bad again when you don't play 0.5/1

On the heart flush hand, I agree with JT that you should b/f the turn? (I think you referred to this situation in an earlier video, if you think it's different can you explain why?)
And then are we really good 40% of the time to call river?

I don't agree with JT that there is no room to bluff on paired board. I mean a 993 board is very different from AA2 board. And since we're not going to call down something like 86 (calling the flop with intention of folding turn UI always is even worse), bluffing to get say anything that doesn't have a J-A fold should be profitable against most player (as I think they will misplay his hand often)

As8S4h board. JT if you don't c/r midpair how can you balance your play with FD/gutshot? Just call?

36m A9857board Do you think Rob will bet a 7 here?

37m What is the benefit of leading the flop after it being capped? (I know this is tough to answer because it also involves what to do when you don't lead)

40m More discussion on what to do with A4o on 986 rainbow board plz. BTW I don't think the board way hands necessarily gives you a free card on the turn (But 965 is surely a call tho JT)

Rob bluffed JT twice too!!

42m KQ2K4 board I think Rob played it well and yes Chuck should 3bet (and will Rob fold?)

LOL at joe tall's "NOOOOO CHUCK STOOOOOP"

47m K6o 1OC + BDFD(to 2nd nuts) + BDSD is not enough to peel? We're getting 7-1 here.

49m with the wheel on board, I agree capping the river is pretty bad.

FWIW I think Rob played really well here, despite the results. He made a few very good bluffs/plays that didn't play off, and the reason is Chuck always have the stronger hand in his range and therefore basically just call/raise/win everytime. Suppose that everytime Rob bluffed, he has the nuts instead, what do you think the match will look like?

And also note the variance in HUHU LHE. If you agree that Rob and Chuck's skill level difference is less than, say 1BB/100 (I'm just randomly throwing this out), but in about 100 hand Rob managed to lose almost 70BB. Obviously both of them are playing aggro so the variance is bigger, but anyone who think HUHU LHE does not have huge variance is kidding himself

I mean a 993 board is very different from AA2 board.

Actually it is not (in a single raised pot between reasonably loose players). There's about the same chance for each player to have trips, a pair, a pocket pair above the unpaired card on board or overs to the unpaired card on board. Main difference is that the AA2 allows some gutshots, but many players won't play the relevant hands. Funnily enough, many players play these boards very differently, for example by always calling down with K high on 993 but not with Q high on AA2.

Funnily enough, many players play these boards very differently, for example by always calling down with K high on 993 but not with Q high on AA2.

This is exactly what I meant! Fnupple you're good

40m More discussion on what to do with A4o on 986 rainbow board plz. BTW I don't think the board way hands necessarily gives you a free card on the turn (But 965 is surely a call tho JT)

I think folding is the play here against most opponents, especially against someone as good as Rob. The reverse implied odds and the reverse folding equity are just too big to overcome imo. And yes, the broadway hands wont give a free card very often. Instead they'll take you to valuetown when they hit and bet you off the best hand when a straight card falls.

OK that makes sense. (And it provides evidence that the "waiting for the river to raise" move can be brutally effective when used sporadically.)

I wouldn't FSDR there, I think it's a pretty horrible spot for a FSDR to be honest. I had decided to run a bluff on any turn card 9-A (raising turn and betting river) as I hadn't gotten a chance yet to raise the turn (I just didn't flop enough pairs or even draws for that matter), so I decided to go with it. I didn't think Chuck would be 3-betting the turn with many hands that weren't in the range of TPVGK or better (most likely hands that are ~2pr range), so once he 3-bet I thought that there was a reasonable chance he was bluffing and decided to rebluff. I think given the pot size though and how few hands I can represent there I should have just folded; I was very aware that he was bluffing dry boards a fair amount (thought the dry paired boards were the most likely) but I never had the ammunition to try to back up any bluffs with any value raises. Looking back at it now I think a hand like J4 there is tough because I'm really shooting for him to be pulling that with Queen or Jack high in order for it to be good, and while I think he does bluff checkraise with both of those sometimes on that board texture I doubt he tries to run a bet-3bet bluff often enough. Once he called the cap on the turn I realized the pot was so large that while I had no showdown value vs the vast majority of his hands I really wasn't credibly representing enough and decided to give up. Of course, he had top pair, again. That said, I think both my bluffcap and his 3-bet are pretty horrible because I think it's incredibly incredibly hard to read the sort of spot where someone is going to bluff-4bet, and unless he knew I was ready to do that (even I didn't know!), then the majority of the time you're 3-betting it's into a hand that will be folding or calling, or occasionally capping (when I have 2pr+). 3-betting would be more viable if you think I'd fold a 6-outer but there are just so few 6-outers that I raise the turn intending to fold to a 3-bet that I don't bluff on the river as well that I can't see a 3-bet being very good at all.

I ran pretty epically bad in this but I'm looking forward to seeing what Chuck had in a lot of the spots; I'd be very very surprised if I folded the best hand at any point in the match, though. I ran into a difficult time with hands like 86hh on a the QQ5 board, I think it was, where I couldn't represent a damned thing once he checkraised the flop, so I peeled and folded as opposed to raising the turn and betting the river or calling the turn intending to bluffraise river (you see me try this line once early on and run into a pair again). All that said I think Chuck is a better HUHU player than me so I'm not worried about losing, but this was a pain in the ass of a match to play in. Bluffs always running into pairs + never flopping any hands that can extract value = shitty time at HUanything.

Rob

Comments/results:

1:45 in I folded 75o on the river. The T is a pretty horrible card for me because all broadways and hands like 98s got there on the river.

3min in, I had 86s (KK5 board).

3:40 in, I had a 5x hand again. Again, all I really beat here is 98s type hands and I don't think there are enough of them to justify the call at basically 7:1.

6:40 in I had J7o.

98o 3-barrel, I agree that the river bet is bad/marginal, I think you'd fold KQ, KT, QT there, I thought that was barely enough but I thought I might be able to eek out a profit, if not I thought that I could expand

10:25 in I had 33 (chuck had ATs). I would have checked behind on that flop (I think it's kinda close but I am

14:30 sucked. I built a huge pot there with an ugly hand but the board didn't come down in such a way where I could bluff realistically. I was betting s though.

15:30 in I would have folded to a 3-bet because I don't think much makes sense as a bluff there. Was annoyed a

16:55. Q9o. Coolered. I was calling the river though.

19:08 I had K9o. Considered a bluffraise on the river but my image wasn't great for it.

20:31 I had 96o. Finally got a bluff to work on a decent board texture.

21:10 in I was planning on checking back and raising most rivers, assuming you'd be peeling pretty light the flop on that board but giving up on the turn. That's the sort of board where I expect you to checkraise pretty light on the flop (all pairs, all draws, some bluffs) so I think you've got 3 outs or less and will fold the turn a lot, though you might peel again with all of those as you have gutshots. Seems close, I'd have to think about your peeling range a bit more.

22:30. I laughed.

23:20. Don't think either of our play is that great once it's raised, I probably shouldn't be 3-betting (what can you raise?), don't think you should be capping.

24:50 good checkraise. I folded two unders to the 9.

25:15 I think my river play is suboptimal but once I checkraise the flop I'm not sure what is best. Betting turn probably since I think you'll call with Queen high but since you will fold a otn of other hands I'm not sure.

27:01 I decided you were going to call down with any piece (most likely 6x) so I gave up with T9, intending on raising the river if I improved.

Was a good match IMO, I'm sure Chuck is a better HU player than I am but the cards didn't give me much of a chance here. Was fun nonetheless, even if it tilted the shit out of me for 20 minutes afterward.

Rob

25:15 I think my river play is suboptimal but once I checkraise the flop I'm not sure what is best. Betting turn probably since I think you'll call with Queen high but since you will fold a otn of other hands I'm not sure.

Yeah, the turn's one of those icky spots you can get yourself into when you turn a hand like K high into a bluff. I think the main problem with checking the turn is that is more or less turns your hand face up, since you almost certainly valuebet A high or better here and fire once more with all your bluffs on a board Chuck is peeling very liberally. I'd just bet the turn, it keeps your range balanced, you can get some value out of Q high and FD hands and having Chuck fold is pretty good for you considering that most worse hands have 6 pair outs to win and 8 chopping outs on top of that.

As played the river is pretty spewey :-) Just c/c instead.

As played the river is pretty spewey :-) Just c/c instead.

I disagree with this given the # of times Chuck just checked it down when I check-called the flop in the past with hands that had 0 showdown value. After the turn had gone check-check he had shown 0 inclination to bluff, but I've bloated the pot a bit more here and I think my hand looks pretty confusing to him and I may get some looser calls by betting (though I should fold to a raise, I think?) than check-calling.

Rob

I disagree with this given the # of times Chuck just checked it down when I check-called the flop in the past with hands that had 0 showdown value. After the turn had gone check-check he had shown 0 inclination to bluff, but I've bloated the pot a bit more here and I think my hand looks pretty confusing to him and I may get some looser calls by betting (though I should fold to a raise, I think?) than check-calling.

Rob

Interesting. From the action you took in the hand I somehow deduced that you did assume that Chuck might be bluffing here. Strange hand, probably because the hand looks so strange from his point of view which makes it hard to predict his actions. But I strongly feel that your hand isn't worth 2 bets on the river. Partly because it's very difficult for him to be bluffraising here (why wouldn't he take a cheap stab at the turn? what exactly does he think you could lay down here?), partly because he has such an easy valueraise with a nine or something slowplayed (which wouldnt be terrible if he reads you for a bluff on the turn).

Interesting. From the action you took in the hand I somehow deduced that you did assume that Chuck might be bluffing here. Strange hand, probably because the hand looks so strange from his point of view which makes it hard to predict his actions. But I strongly feel that your hand isn't worth 2 bets on the river. Partly because it's very difficult for him to be bluffraising here (why wouldn't he take a cheap stab at the turn? what exactly does he think you could lay down here?), partly because he has such an easy valueraise with a nine or something slowplayed (which wouldnt be terrible if he reads you for a bluff on the turn).

I think slowplaying is probably bad since a fair amount of my range is Ace and King high checkraising the flop for value, but I do agree that my hand isn't worth 2 bets on the river. I think I can bet-fold but I'm really not sure since I was really targeting connectors basically 87 through QT or so with my flop checkraise, and the turn chekc means I think he's giving up, so I can either check-fold or bet and hope he calls thinking I'm polarizing my range?

since a fair amount of my range is Ace and King high checkraising the flop for value

Random remark: You can't c/r K high on the flop for value since you're not ahead of his range. And I really think that you should bet A/K high on the turn, as I've argued before.

On the river the alternatives are b/f, c/c, c/f. I'm not sure what's best, but here are my thoughts:

Let's compare c/c to c/f: If you check, he knows you don't have much and he'll valuebet every better hand 100% of the time and will bluff some worse hands. Of course, if you think he's bluffing too much (too little) you should call (fold), so if you think you can exploit him by folding, go ahead and do so. But if you want to be unexploitable, you should probably call (since you're at the top of your range).

What about betting? There's probably no positive value in a bet, assuming he'll never call with worse then Q high. You lose a bet against 9x, and gain a bet from Qx. He's slightly more likely to have Q high here (108 combos total) then 9x (99 combos of 94 or better), but I think that's compensated by the following factors: He will occasionally have A high or better, he's not guaranteed to call with Q high and he will bluffraise a nonzero amount of the time. It's really close, though.
That doesn't mean b/f is wrong though, and I think it's better then c/c unless you think he's bluffing way too much (either by raising or betting) since you're highly likely to gain a bet from
his Qx hands.

Conclusion: I prefer c/c over c/f (but that might be a matter of style) and b/f over c/c, so I vote for b/f.

Random remark: You can't c/r K high on the flop for value since you're not ahead of his range.

Really? Chuck is opening something like top 80-85% on the button and is calling everything to a flop checkraise. That means I should be betting the turn, though. I just stoved it and I'm 50/50 vs what I'd estimate to be his flop bet-calling range. I think that could leave K8o being a hand that is better check-calling than checkraising but I should be checkraising some nonpaired hands on this board for value and K8o is awfully close to it (K9cc I definitely should be checkraising). If I thought he'd fold or 2-barrel this board texture a lot more then I could consider other lines but I think this is a decent spot to checkraise with some middling value hands. I don't think Chuck folds Q high and I think that he calls T-high a non-zero portion of the time here, and I don't think he's super likely to bluffraise, so I like bet-fold over check-call, but check-fold still may triumph over all IMO.

Rob

Stoved it yesterday and iirc on the flop you're like a coinflip against his entire preflop range (including all the monsters under your bed).
Anyway, I didn't mean to say that the flop c/r is bad (although I just c/c here most of the time), just that you don't have enough equity to do it purely for value.

I agree that a river c/f might well be best. But I'm pretty certain that calling would be the unexploitable play (once you check), assuming you would always bet river with A high or better. Since I have no idea what Chuck's bluffing range would be here (maybe Chuck himself can help us out here?), I would strive to be as unexploitable as possible.

OK, I've thought some more about the hand and I'm pretty sure that you can't possibly c/f. Here are the assumptions I'm making, let me know if you disagree with any of them.

- When you check the river, Chuck knows that you have at most K high the vast majority of the time.

- Chuck peels the flop with any K high, as well as any 9x except 92o,92ss and 92hh.

- Chuck would bet turn with A high or better, wouldn't bet Q high or worse and would check K high at least 50% of the time.

The pot on the river is 4BB.
He "knows" 9x is good, so he will vbet all 92 combos of 9x he has here.
He has c*93 combos of K high, where c is the probability of him checking K high on the turn.

He "knows" you have at most K high, so he'll bet any 9 and any K high.
Your EV for folding is 0 (duh!). Your EV for calling is (-92 + 2*c*93)/(92+c*93) > 0 if he's never bluffing. Therefore you can't c/f.

Random remark: You can't c/r K high on the flop for value since you're not ahead of his range. And I really think that you should bet A/K high on the turn, as I've argued before.

On the river the alternatives are b/f, c/c, c/f. I'm not sure what's best, but here are my thoughts:

Let's compare c/c to c/f: If you check, he knows you don't have much and he'll valuebet every better hand 100% of the time and will bluff some worse hands. Of course, if you think he's bluffing too much (too little) you should call (fold), so if you think you can exploit him by folding, go ahead and do so. But if you want to be unexploitable, you should probably call (since you're at the top of your range).

What about betting? There's probably no positive value in a bet, assuming he'll never call with worse then Q high. You lose a bet against 9x, and gain a bet from Qx. He's slightly more likely to have Q high here (108 combos total) then 9x (99 combos of 94 or better), but I think that's compensated by the following factors: He will occasionally have A high or better, he's not guaranteed to call with Q high and he will bluffraise a nonzero amount of the time. It's really close, though.
That doesn't mean b/f is wrong though, and I think it's better then c/c unless you think he's bluffing way too much (either by raising or betting) since you're highly likely to gain a bet from
his Qx hands.

Conclusion: I prefer c/c over c/f (but that might be a matter of style) and b/f over c/c, so I vote for b/f.

Really good responses; I'm glad to see that most people think I played well and ran bad, but I've learned a lot from the posts here even though there wasn't a lot that I could learn from the hands in the video.

Rob