Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by threads13 (Micro/Small Stakes)

Great video guys!
Love seeing you discussing hands and spots that actually come up a lot - the smaller ones, not just the 200bb+ pot ones.
Helped me a lot!

Time Link to 00:22:55

I am very against value betting here.

If we really think about your equity against his range "when you get called" - I dont think more than 50% of the calls are by worse. With a 50VPIP he can have all of the T7, 87, 97, 77 combos, he can have random queens he decides to checkraise, random flushes and sets he played weird, etc.

The big thing though, is that I feel like against a random you are assuming he calls too often with 1/2pr hands. Just because he has more 1 pair and 2 pair hands in his range NOW is kind of irrelevant if those arent always in his check calling range. Many players Ive seen in low limit 6max either never call or rarely call with non-straight hands in spots like this.

Of course if KJ is calling here 100% of the time like you suggest I would value town all day I think its more like 20% of the time calling.

I am very against value betting here.

If we really think about your equity against his range "when you get called" - I dont think more than 50% of the calls are by worse. With a 50VPIP he can have all of the T7, 87, 97, 77 combos, he can have random queens he decides to checkraise, random flushes and sets he played weird, etc.

I agree those could be in his range, but I would expect them to bet out a fairly significant portion of the time. Thus, when he checks he has more one-pair/two-pair type hands. Essentially, when you weight his range out given his actions, his range for playing his two-pair combos is significantly higher than playing his straight combos. I think that makes it a bet.

The big thing though, is that I feel like against a random you are assuming he calls too often with 1/2pr hands. Just because he has more 1 pair and 2 pair hands in his range NOW is kind of irrelevant if those arent always in his check calling range. Many players Ive seen in low limit 6max either never call or rarely call with non-straight hands in spots like this.

I really don't expect him to fold two-pair on the river almost ever against me.

I really don't expect him to fold two-pair on the river almost ever against me.

Do you think he has more combos of worse 2 pair than he has 7x combos, and the Qx/flush/set combos played weird?

When you say "against me" does that mean you think he has a read on you? Or he is just never folding to anyone? I was thinking it was a fishy looking random with 20 hands of history or so and no great reads other than the VPIP thing.

If nothing else can we at least agree its pretty marginal to value bet? It sounded like you felt it was a fist pump value bet If it turns out I am just a nit then I can accept that, I am just pushing you a little because this decision does not come natural to me.

Do you think he has more combos of worse 2 pair than he has 7x combos, and the Qx/flush/set combos played weird?

Of course I think that... otherwise I'd hate a value bet.

When you say "against me" does that mean you think he has a read on you? Or he is just never folding to anyone? I was thinking it was a fishy looking random with 20 hands of history or so and no great reads other than the VPIP thing.

If nothing else can we at least agree its pretty marginal to value bet? It sounded like you felt it was a fist pump value bet If it turns out I am just a nit then I can accept that, I am just pushing you a little because this decision does not come natural to me.

Sure, I think it's somewhat close. It's hard for me to take it much further than that then until looking at the math. I typically would take a look at the combos in his range and figure out how many take this line, and how often each combo calls on the river after taking this line.

In regards to the "against me" I mean to say that since I play really aggressive I may get a few more calls than players who don't. I expect this player's calling frequency to be high regardless, but probably higher versus me. Also, the 20 hand sample tells us more than you may intuitively believe.

Sure, I think it's somewhat close. It's hard for me to take it much further than that then until looking at the math. I typically would take a look at the combos in his range and figure out how many take this line, and how often each combo calls on the river after taking this line.

His most common check calling range is probably 2-pair (where we win) and 78-7J (where we lose), so I counted those combos. Less common check-call (or C/r) is probably 1-pr, as well as Qx/set/flush played weird.

He has 32 combos of worse 2-pr (J9, J8, T9, T8, 89) - I dont think 82-J2 2pair is in the 50% VPIP open range .

He has 40 combos of 7x (j7, t7, 97, 87)

Id contend he is always calling with 7x but only sometimes calling 2pr (I dont think he never folds 87 for example although he might usually call).

In my opinion this means we would have to believe he hero calls 1 pair a lot more often than he plays Qx, sets, or flushed weird. That might be true but personally I feel like I always run into geniuses playing big hands weird, and run into less hero callers capable of calling KJ here.

PS if my combo math sucks its because I never count combos, so I apologize if I am making any mistakes.

His most common check calling range is probably 2-pair (where we win) and 78-7J (where we lose), so I counted those combos. Less common check-call (or C/r) is probably 1-pr, as well as Qx/set/flush played weird.

He has 32 combos of worse 2-pr (J9, J8, T9, T8, 89) - I dont think 82-J2 2pair is in the 50% VPIP open range .

He has 40 combos of 7x (j7, t7, 97, 87)

Id contend he is always calling with 7x but only sometimes calling 2pr (I dont think he never folds 87 for example although he might usually call).

In my opinion this means we would have to believe he hero calls 1 pair a lot more often than he plays Qx, sets, or flushed weird. That might be true but personally I feel like I always run into geniuses playing big hands weird, and run into less hero callers capable of calling KJ here.

PS if my combo math sucks its because I never count combos, so I apologize if I am making any mistakes.

I think you've done some good work. Let me add some additional details.

I feel he is almost always checking the river with two-pair and much less often checking a straight. Also, we have to consider he is much more likely to play a hand like 98 this way than J7. He isn't often leading the flop with J7 as compared to 98, for example.

So, if you say something like, he only checks his flushes and straights 40% of the time, but he check/calls his two-pairs and one-pairs 90% of the time then it skews the math.

Let's throw in another 10 combos of random straights and flushes in his range to balance it out. Also, he can sometimes call with AJ/KJ hands, so let's throw another 5 combos of those in (this is reflecting the fact that he is more likely to do this with a big hand than a worse hand). Obviously, this isn't the most accurate and feel free to take these ideas a step further, but I'm just trying to lay some groundwork for how you should be thinking in these spots. The idea is sometimes he's going to show up with some worse hands here and you'll be like "What?!".

90% of the time he checks two-pair
.9 * 37 = 33.3 weighted combos

40% of the time he checks better hands
.4 * 50 = 20 weighted combos

Admittedly, these numbers aren't the most accurate in the world (and double-check my math). I want to reiterate this because I'm not trying to get super-accurate here. Also, I'd like to leave the door for others to come in and really lay down some math to get a more accurate idea. This will give you an idea of how the idea of him not playing his better hands this slowly will affect the value of a river bet. Some math could make it close or go the other way, but this is an idea of how I feel he will play his hands and to me it still looks like a bet.

Admittedly, these numbers aren't the most accurate in the world (and double-check my math). I want to reiterate this because I'm not trying to get super-accurate here. Also, I'd like to leave the door for others to come in and really lay down some math to get a more accurate idea. This will give you an idea of how the idea of him not playing his better hands this slowly will affect the value of a river bet. Some math could make it close or go the other way, but this is an idea of how I feel he will play his hands and to me it still looks like a bet.

Thanks so much & Ill shut up and leave it to others now I agree weighting the ranges based on the line he took is a key point I overlooked.

After watching a great BR management video from WoT, I also started considering if in spots like this, a hero with a 30-50 buyin bankroll should check behind, but heros with a 100+ buyin bankroll should go for thin value. That might be an interesting exogonous factor in deciding to go for it or not.

Anyway thank you for walking through that with me.

Thanks so much & Ill shut up and leave it to others now I agree weighting the ranges based on the line he took is a key point I overlooked.

After watching a great BR management video from WoT, I also started considering if in spots like this, a hero with a 30-50 buyin bankroll should check behind, but heros with a 100+ buyin bankroll should go for thin value. That might be an interesting exogonous factor in deciding to go for it or not.

Anyway thank you for walking through that with me.

No troubles at all. Discussion like this is great for the forums and can really help clear things up. Sometimes when I'm saying and idea I'm unaware that I'm not completely describing my thought process.

I do think there is a reasonable point that you wouldn't want to push a really thin edge if you are short on a roll. I will say that 30-50BI is probably plenty enough and it shouldn't be a factor. This of course is different from player to player, but 30-50BI is a decently sized roll (assuming you aren't withdrawing).

I also think this can be considered with tilt. Say you have two options, both of which are +EV, but the one that is higher EV could potentially put you on tilt that will make your entire play -EV, or at the very least cause you to not play as much because you quit to avoid tilt. It may be more +EV in the grand scheme to take the lesser immediate EV decision to protect your future EV. This is not an excuse to take the easier way out, but it's to say that you should realize that your win-rate is made up of how you are playing and you should seek to maximize that in close decisions that could affect you negatively for reasons outside the scope of strategy. Of course, it'd be better to remove the tilt, and that should be our goal, but sometimes you realize that it's there (currently) whether you like it or not. You can improve on it, but in the meantime you have to take the highest global EV.

Are these hands from sportsbook.com? I recognize some of the players and I am just curious because I can't get my HUD to work on the site. I thought they didn't allow their use but it appears yours is working?

How can i set call/raise stat like in your pop-up window. It seems like a single stat which uses single position in popup.

Tnx for your answer

How can i set call/raise stat like in your pop-up window. It seems like a single stat which uses single position in popup.

Tnx for your answer

Are you referring to the call vs c-bet and raise vs c-bet? If so, it's a custom pop-up that I made. The specific stats are in there. If you are unfamiliar with how to do custom pop-ups I suggest watching App Attack - Episode 2 (pretty sure it's episode 2). Josh covers how to do custom pop-ups there.

Are you referring to the call vs c-bet and raise vs c-bet? If so, it's a custom pop-up that I made. The specific stats are in there. If you are unfamiliar with how to do custom pop-ups I suggest watching App Attack - Episode 2 (pretty sure it's episode 2). Josh covers how to do custom pop-ups there.

thank you.

Are you referring to the call vs c-bet and raise vs c-bet? If so, it's a custom pop-up that I made. The specific stats are in there. If you are unfamiliar with how to do custom pop-ups I suggest watching App Attack - Episode 2 (pretty sure it's episode 2). Josh covers how to do custom pop-ups there.

Threads13, i checked the episode you said (actually checked all 8) but i can't find this "call/raise" stats anywhere. In which category are they? I'm talking about popup that u have on your VPIP nr.

EP/MP
Call/raise
unopened 0/14 %
Limper(s) 0/19 %

etc

Nice vid. Especially liked last hand. Kind of common spot...

Threads13, i checked the episode you said (actually checked all 8) but i can't find this "call/raise" stats anywhere. In which category are they? I'm talking about popup that u have on your VPIP nr.

EP/MP
Call/raise
unopened 0/14 %
Limper(s) 0/19 %

etc

Oh, ok. That's one that I've had trouble with. I can get it to work for my FR HUD, but not my 6-max HUD. The difference is when I have "Old Style Popup" checked in the "Player Preferences" window. I have this checked for VPIP. However, I can't get it to save for my 6-max HUD, which seems to be some sort of bug in HEM.

Are these hands from sportsbook.com? I recognize some of the players and I am just curious because I can't get my HUD to work on the site. I thought they didn't allow their use but it appears yours is working?

zachd2323, what things specifically have you tried so far concerning your HUD config settings? I remember having to play with a few things and ended up doing something somewhat counter-intuitive, but i'm not at my poker machine now and will have to take a look at it later. But let me know what you have done thus far. It's probably the case that you'll need something slightly different, but maybe I can help you out? Just let me know.

By the way I'm going through GR88.com, however there are several different "sites" that are all providing service to play against other clients on the "Merge" network. Sportsbook.com might be one of those; not sure though.

Oh, ok. That's one that I've had trouble with. I can get it to work for my FR HUD, but not my 6-max HUD. The difference is when I have "Old Style Popup" checked in the "Player Preferences" window. I have this checked for VPIP. However, I can't get it to save for my 6-max HUD, which seems to be some sort of bug in HEM.

Aha now i get it
Thanks for help and thanks for very interesting series.

Time Link to 01:04:22

Absolutely love this point - three betting a reg's iso-raise will stop the fish from losing money as quickly to the reg.

Never thought of this or heard it mentioned anywhere before - brilliant!

Really liked the 6-max review and the stake level, more of these please
Great work guys!

Time Link to 00:40:52

If we bet and he raises on this flop wouldnt a 3 bet look weak are we really playing the top end of our range this way,being him i think i would at least float and bet a turn check from us.

If we bet and he raises on this flop wouldnt a 3 bet look weak are we really playing the top end of our range this way,being him i think i would at least float and bet a turn check from us.

You are correct that a smart player could see this as a bluff, but not many players are going to do anything about it. If you look at the entire TAG population you will find that most TAGs will simply fold when you make this play. Conduct an experiment. Get a pad of notebook paper and tally up whether you get a success (a fold) or fail (raise or call) when you 3-bet on a dry flop. You will find that you get a very large percentage of folds. So, we should assume that if we don't have a read on what that TAG will do on this spot we should use our evidence we've gained from other TAGs and assume he will just fold.

Just because a player could potentially see our line as bluffy doesn't mean he will and even if he does see it as bluffy doesn't mean he will react to it.

You are correct that a smart player could see this as a bluff, but not many players are going to do anything about it. If you look at the entire TAG population you will find that most TAGs will simply fold when you make this play. Conduct an experiment. Get a pad of notebook paper and tally up whether you get a success (a fold) or fail (raise or call) when you 3-bet on a dry flop. You will find that you get a very large percentage of folds. So, we should assume that if we don't have a read on what that TAG will do on this spot we should use our evidence we've gained from other TAGs and assume he will just fold.

Just because a player could potentially see our line as bluffy doesn't mean he will and even if he does see it as bluffy doesn't mean he will react to it.

You make a really good point,i guess its a situation where you should make this play against a player until you are shown a reason not to however are im not so confident it would work as well in non blind war situations.When they call the 3 bet in this spot and its not a blind war i think it would take firing the turn to get the same amount of folds,is this what you would do?and would you give up on the river?

You are correct that a smart player could see this as a bluff, but not many players are going to do anything about it. If you look at the entire TAG population you will find that most TAGs will simply fold when you make this play. Conduct an experiment. Get a pad of notebook paper and tally up whether you get a success (a fold) or fail (raise or call) when you 3-bet on a dry flop. You will find that you get a very large percentage of folds. So, we should assume that if we don't have a read on what that TAG will do on this spot we should use our evidence we've gained from other TAGs and assume he will just fold.





Just because a player could potentially see our line as bluffy doesn't mean he will and even if he does see it as bluffy doesn't mean he will react to it.

Oh and do you decide to take a bluff catch/pow line with big pairs on a paired/dry flop against a TAG or do you think its best to 3 bet the flop raise with youre entire range?what sizing do you like for the flop 3 bet.Say you make it 5 into a 7 pot and he makes it 14...

You make a really good point,i guess its a situation where you should make this play against a player until you are shown a reason not to however are im not so confident it would work as well in non blind war situations.When they call the 3 bet in this spot and its not a blind war i think it would take firing the turn to get the same amount of folds,is this what you would do?and would you give up on the river?

No, once they call the flop they likely are showdown bound. However, I think you're severely overestimating how often you'll get called. Most of the time someone raises on dry flops it's just a bluff so they fold to the 3-bet. Very rarely is it some sort of medium strength hand. You certainly want to pick your spots, but I don't think it's even close to limited to just blind vs blind.


Obviously, this can be a leveling thing versus a smart player so you have to know your opponent, but most players at these limits aren't taking it to the level of raising a dry flop wider to induce bluffs/light calls.

Oh and do you decide to take a bluff catch/pow line with big pairs on a paired/dry flop against a TAG or do you think its best to 3 bet the flop raise with youre entire range?what sizing do you like for the flop 3 bet.Say you make it 5 into a 7 pot and he makes it 14...

I mostly just call with over-pair type hands. If I had the tip-top of my range I might 3-bet for value to balance.

No, once they call the flop they likely are showdown bound. However, I think you're severely overestimating how often you'll get called. Most of the time someone raises on dry flops it's just a bluff so they fold to the 3-bet. Very rarely is it some sort of medium strength hand. You certainly want to pick your spots, but I don't think it's even close to limited to just blind vs blind.


Obviously, this can be a leveling thing versus a smart player so you have to know your opponent, but most players at these limits aren't taking it to the level of raising a dry flop wider to induce bluffs/light calls.

It seems i may be making the mistake of assuming because thats what i would most likely do thats whats most likely to happen to me(floating the flop 3 bet to try to take it away on a checked turn) This also may be a sypmtom of being a 2/4 and 3/6nl reg for a long time and now stuck at these stakes for too long also it is so hard to just generalise though,these spots can be so player and gameflow dependent,so am i know thinking too much about this was i thinking too little before,or have i now thought enough about it i think i play these situations reasonably well most of the time but this has definitely made me stop think and pay more attention to how i will play them in the future,which i suppose has to be a good thing.