AMT plays some small field MTT Sit n Gos on PokerStars. He talks of bridging the gap between some small SnG concepts and bigger multi-table tournaments.
For all those moments when you are sitting down to an event with more than 9 players our Instructors help you with the decisions to cull out the weak and make the final table.
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lol no rush, I don't think that they're going to take it down
Also wanted to clarify what isn't in the description:
This episode was an intro into, as it states, delving into a bit bigger of fields from the talk that we've had on 9 man SNGs. I wanted to stress that, as a general theme, aggression is certainly on top of our list of adjustments in many spots. I don't think I did a great job in a couple of spots about stressing that, for this video, I was going for taking any spots I thought to be close in the name of aggression. Looking back on it, the T2o call was a potential example of this. I think it's closer than I made it out to be in-game, but given what we know about basic pot odds-calling situations in closing the action to short stacked shoves, it was close at worst (arguments for maintaining that stack are still relevant even though as I stated and shown we do have FE even if we call and lose), so not a huge deal but in general wanted to reiterate that I was going for that theme throughout the video. In general I think it is extremely important to clarify which spots are fairly clear cut and which spots are pretty close, especially in a game where the edges gained by your +EV decisions are very very small.
All that said, hope you guys enjoy it, and if anything wasn't clarified to your liking, by all means, please please ask.
Thanks! These are 11+1 Turbo's.
It's a reasonable shove to make, I agree. With the limper's stack however, I'm not thrilled as I honestly do not want to see KTo limp/call here even though we'd be ahead, and we do lose FE over the bigger stacks at these levels in similar spots compared to opponents with a similar stack size to ours. Even still I think A5o is a check without more info, but thank you for pointing it out, it's still a spot I should have taken here imo with the A7.
Thank you. I'll definitely make a note of running better next time for end-game concepts
Nice Vid. Nice to see you run like i d
I would like to see you do a 180 man vid on stars and record one that you go real deep in. And discuss your end play concepts.
bahaha yea I didn't run like a god in this one unfortunately
Actually, I recently recorded a 12/180 man from around 18 people left (just ITM) to victory. I didn't review it to see if it was all that eventful/worthy of enough commentary vs. compiling future games, but if people want more of this type of stuff and more focus on end game/ITM/push-fold stuff I'm happy to put that on the list for future videos, or even if that recording is worthy, dub over audio of my play there. Thanks for the comments!!
Very nice Vid.
I`d really love to see more STT/MTT Content here on Deuces Cracked.
Especially one about DON SNGs would be very nice.
DC just signed up another SNG coach (me!), so you'll certainly see an uptick in the amount of SNG content. If AMT has no plans for a DON video, I'd be happy to put it on my to-do list.
Can we expect another SNG series from this Alex?
Not specifically but you never know
Re: DONs and other structures, we are definitely taking note of your guys' requests and we're going to do our best to get out content to all of your guys' liking. There are a lot of different requests so try to work with us, but we should be bringing out some good stuff! We appreciate the feedback, comments and requests/ideas for future material. Always keep the ideas flowing imo.
Good video AMT. I'm gonna have my dad watch this so he can improve his MTT game.
I have to say, i was shocked by the idea of open folding AT on the BT in a SNG though. Woh.
Most profitable STTers multi table (many @ 12-30). I'd never fold it on the btn in a mtt, and even in a STT at the games I play I'd never really dream of it but as far as conventional level 1 opening ranges go, that was a good example of where breaking points start to shift. You'd hear an experienced SNGer telling a lesser experienced player to raise say AQ+ in level one and throw in AJ in LP until the blinds start to increase, at least until that player was proven to be more comfortable opening wider on the button/playing post flop/until the blinds became more significant (if you watched my "Last Man Standing" series, you'd know this part ). In contrast with these, where I'd never really tell anyone to open fold AT there (I guess I didn't stress that enough, maybe I should have used A8 as an example instead). So knowing what I know about you I'll say that you shouldn't fold it, but don't be shocked by the very idea imo I'll hold you tight and see you through the darkness.
While we're on the subject, you guys can open any ace on the button in theory even in a STT, I'd go so far as to say that some proven winners do it profitably, but given the value of chips in level one combined with how most people play SNGs, it's not a strategy I would ever preach here as "the" right thing to do, nor do I think that most of the big high stakes winners that I know of adhere to this idea. As long as people are taking away the idea that, if they're STT opening range here vs randoms is AT or A9 + as an example, in these games it should likely be wider as part of the few generic early game adjustments made (aka opening up in LP)
edit: btw, fwiw, SNGs work in a funny way....to the point where you can justify folding AJo on the btn, level 1 (10/20), in a 5 table SNG even and not be considered absolutely insane, and you can open 97s from the hijack in level 3 (25/50) and also not be considered the SNG anti-christ, even if you did both in the same SNG zomggg head asplodeeeee.
edit edit: when are you comin' to my pad dawg?
You complete the SB with QTo in the top table, but fold A8s in the bottom table OTB after two limpers. Am I crazy for wanting to reverse these two actions?
Not crazy, but I wouldn't reverse them But in reflection of this video (thank you to a student of mine today for asking a question about it) I definitely made some unintentional errors. I would like to add re: your question that there is def. validity to over limping the A8s in these structures because of that aspect of not having to worry about the leakage of chips or staying as tight at early levels as you would in a 9 man pay out. That said, as far as 'level 1 play of 9-45 man SNGs' as an umbrella, I'd say completing the QTo is still 'more standard' than the overlimping the A8s, though both seem fine to me.
Another note is at 41:00, the KQo UTG fold, I'm not sure why I said what I said. It was either a simple short sightedness on my part and a mistake, or I thought we were 9 handed or something (in which case, it was probably still a push but a lot closer if you'd been active or had an extra big blind and at a loose table, etc...) Anyways since the picking up of aggression topic is definitely important as it relates to shorthanded or bigger field games, definitely wanted to highlight that mistake here. I don't think we'd be pushing too much wider, but KQ would be a pretty easy shove for me here frankly, and I don't remember why exactly I folded in the video, but I should not have. So there you go.
Push: AMT (#3) - MTT SnG
I found a couple of spots in this video that illustrate my difficulty in locating reliable push/fold charts for use in a 45-man Sit and Go. The charts I have been using lately are from Kill Everyone, revised and expanded edition. I have also been studying three different charts provided by jcm4ccc at the 2 + 2 forums, the most recent of which is extremely tight and complicated to implement in actual play.
Anyway, here are the spots where Kill Everyone says to definitely jam, and you say probably not.
Starting Hand = J9s
Position = Hijack
Blinds: 100-200, no antes
Blinds + antes: 300 + 0 = 300
M = 4350/1250 = 6.5
You stated before anyone called that you would be folding this hand. If the player acting just before you had folded, you would have been sitting two off the button with J9s, first to act.
Kill Everyone, 2 Ed., p. 344, states that I can perform an unexploitable shove with a CSI of 7, no antes, when sitting in the Hijack. Should I tend to not follow this advice? (My instinct is to fold it, but I would rather rely on objective data as a point of departure.)
Starting hand = KQo
Position = 4 off the button
Blinds 300 600, ante 50
Blinds + antes = 900 + 350 = 1250
M = 4350/1250 = 3.48
In Kill Everyone, second edition, page 341, the table says that when antes are being used with an index of 4, I can shove KJ+ into the crowd when sitting four off the button.
I have found that when I follow such advice, I often get into trouble. However, the authors of this highly praised book assure me that when far from the money, shoving in this spot is unexploitable.
Could you suggest a set of tables that would provide the most +EV play in an "average" situation? I know that "average" plays can get me into trouble, but they would still be useful as points of departure.
My guess is that kill everyone's charts aren't necessarily optimal for every MTT with varying payout structures. Even though I think I was probably too nitty in general with my play 1-2 years ago, I think the J9s is pretty close with no antes, and I don't mind my fold (though with ante's I'd definitely push, and I'd likely push JTs as is). Regardless, can't really see this being unexploitable.
I'd be careful about implementing terms from KE like "when far from the money," when talking about SNGs. Don't recall specifically how far from the money we were, but just eyeing it, it had to be pretty far into the tournament/near the FT where 7 pay out. These structures are somewhat flatter than you might find in other MTT structures, and they are small fields, so biases against confrontation work against us at various spots throughout (esp. near or on the bubble, depending on stack distributions and the like), even if we should be loosening up significantly compared to STT play.
That said, I think I missed a push with the KQo
My previous post had a major mistake. Example 1 should look like this:
Starting Hand = J9s
Position = Hijack
Blinds: 100-200, no antes
Blinds + antes: 300 + 0 = 300
M = 1950/300 = 6.5
Thank you for your reply. Whenever I go on a long stretch of losses, I try to find leaks. (My overall results are good at the beginning levels of 45-man Sit and Gos.) Probably my jam tables are not accounting for the huge swings that occur when I lose so many races (not to mention hands in which I am clearly favored).
Like a lot of other people, I wish I could develop a clear formula for when to jam and when to call a jam, including when other people have already entered the pot. Little by little, I get a better feel, but what I really seek is certainty that my decisions are correct.
I hear you. I think it's always a work in progress. As you can see in my videos, I sometimes make mistakes too. It takes a lot of hands, and a lot of time working with an ICM program, and getting a feel for different opponents pushing and calling ranges, game flow, etc... You'll definitely get to a point where you're comfortable pushing and calling, and deciding when to pass up edges and when not to if you keep at it.
Very nice vid IMO. Unfortunate that the title does not relect the fact that you explain a lot the differences between STT and MTT SnG
You're telling why you do not want to push 47o here.
What is your pushing range ?
Re: the 1st part of your comments, it does say it in the description sort of Says "He talks of bridging the gap between some small SnG concepts and bigger multi-table tournaments." which I think is meant to indicate a similar sentiment to the differences in the game structures.
Re: the hand--- This was posted quite some time ago, so I can't 100% remember reads/info on the players in the blinds, and of course this is a really big factor in determining pushing ranges here (along with your image of course). I will also say that 1-2 years ago I think I was generally a lot tighter of a player in all games and probably missed some close push spots due to my nittiness Looking now, I think 74o still may be a fold, but is perhaps on the very bottom end of a reasonable shoving range when we get under that 8bb mark with the antes. Not upset with my fold here, but something like ~75%+ or so of hands is probably reasonable to shove with a solid image and reasonable players in the blinds. 74o has some straight possibilities but is still a very weak hand, and if either blind decides I have been too aggressive and calls off with JTs or T9s or A2o my feeling is this will quickly become a clearly bad shove, so I probably thought this was a reasonable possibility at the time.
Behind my question, I wondered if you had changed your fold into a shove since you recorded the video.
I think I would have pushed 80% here because the ante are quite valuable on the full table. And I think 47o can be included in the bottom of my 80%.
I was considering watching this footage as I am working on my MTT game but seeing as this is two years old it seems about out of date in todays MTT metagame. So my question to you AMT is whether you think this is still worth watching or just not worth my time... I am currently watching jjyykk's videos and I am very pleased with them so they will be what I would compare this to
Sorry, it's at 41:15, I might be wrong here but I'm like never calling this light with this stack size. Of course if he doubles up you can regain the chips by stealing in CO/BTN.
You're on the right track; it's definitely very thin at best. In a STT I most certainly wouldn't ever think to call here. Honestly as I said I can't remember too well and looking at it now I think it's probably a mistake. But never say never It's important to note that if hes pushing like ~92%-100% of hands then this is a profitable call. If I had ,say, something like 96o (aka similarly garbage hand) it'd be profitable call at over 80%. Him opening with just under 4bb's on the button, I don't think that this kind of assumption is so crazy.
Another thing to note is, nowadays I think there is a higher ratio of players playing a bigger number of tables simultaneously. While most probably make mistakes in doing so, I do think it will tighten their ranges up slightly for a few reasons, and hence would become an even worse call today I think than a few years ago. But of course in the end it's just a read dependent situation with regard to how confident you can be that your opponent is shoving very wide, and in the end yeah may often just be a fold.
Sorry if this isn't the answer you're looking for, but hope that covers it.
It is definitely a bit dated and hence I would take some aspects in stride. That said, I am generally of the opinion that reasonable understanding of tournament fundamentals, learning new structures etc... won't change *so* much over time that the videos completely lose value. I think it should definitely be compared to the changes that you know have occurred in the games, be it slight payout differences or just generally different player pool. Would always recommend considerations of game evolution in watching older material, but again, I think if the goal is to fine tune fundamentals, hear someone talk about the game in a fluid manner, get your head around new core concepts, what have you...then yeah, it's probably still worth it.
All that said, I would work backwards. Poker evolves very quickly, so newer is certainly going to be better I think. If there comes a point in time where you've worked back and still want to keep going, then yeah I'd come back to this at that point and think it worth my time in that spot.
I'm pretty sure for MTTs though I have a few big field standalone videos out, and jjyykk as well. Also omgclaydol I think has a new 180 man series that is being produced. Think my best MTT work is probably 'Turning Turbo Tricks' - $16.50 30k grt turbo mtt win where I go through the entire tournament in a replayer in 4 (5?) parts. I'd check out the video guide in the research and development forum for a complete listing and the best perspective on working backwards to get through the material that seems most relevant, both to the times/state of the game, and to your own personal goals. Hope this helps! And good luck!