Poker Video: Misc/Other by danzasmack (Micro/Small Stakes)

DC Shorts: Danzasmack (#2) - What is GTO

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DC Shorts: Danzasmack (#2) - What is GTO by danzasmack

Danzasmack breaks down Game Theory Optimization (GTO).

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Comments for DC Shorts: Danzasmack (#2) - What is GTO

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sthief09

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3195 posts
Joined 07/2007

whoa! great vid. exactly what we needed.

prediction in the form of an SAT analogy:

Rob : Joe :: What is GTO? : EPTPE

Posted over 4 years ago

Befeltingu

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264 posts
Joined 12/2009

I dont think GTO guarantees +EV right? The NE from a BB vs BTN is probably - EV for the BB. The entire GTO solution to poker would have to be +EV though.

Posted over 4 years ago

bachfan

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353 posts
Joined 08/2009

Nice work. This should clear up a lot of the confusion.

One small point of confusion we've seen in other threads that we can add to the list would be the term "indifferent." When we talk about being indifferent to what our opponent does when playing a NE strategy, we mean that we'll be at worst break-even no matter what, so we can just ignore him and play our game. We don't mean that we "don't care" what our opponent does in the sense that the amount of money we make will very much depend on our opponent's play; this should be obvious, as having our opponent fold the nuts on the river, for instance, would be very nice indeed.

Posted over 4 years ago

Entity

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8666 posts
Joined 11/2006

I dont think GTO guarantees +EV right? The NE from a BB vs BTN is probably - EV for the BB. The entire GTO solution to poker would have to be +EV though.


It's a bit of a frame of reference problem. The entire tree of decisions for the BB is likely to be -EV because of the posted blind, but the GTO strategy from that point onward is +EV (I think I'm explaining this properly - it's clear in my head but the words are a bit murky). You can make more in the BB by way of not losing more than the 1BB posted.

Here's a good topic to read and post in on this subject: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/131-Poker-Theory/578281-The-ev-of-open-folding-pr

Rob

Posted over 4 years ago

sthief09

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3195 posts
Joined 07/2007

It's a bit of a frame of reference problem. The entire tree of decisions for the BB is likely to be -EV because of the posted blind, but the GTO strategy from that point onward is +EV (I think I'm explaining this properly - it's clear in my head but the words are a bit murky). You can make more in the BB by way of not losing more than the 1BB posted.

Here's a good topic to read and post in on this subject: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/131-Poker-Theory/578281-The-ev-of-open-folding-pr

Rob




exactly. we start with 100 BB and we then post our BB. our analysis starts with our stack at 99 BB. for the purposes of our analysis, that 1 BB is dead money.

Posted over 4 years ago

B-rye88

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Assuming all players are GTO, the blinds will lose money (99% sure of this).

This is negated by the fact that the button gets passed around.

Posted over 4 years ago

sthief09

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3195 posts
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Assuming all players are GTO, the blinds will lose money (99% sure of this).

This is negated by the fact that the button gets passed around.



it's a matter of when we start looking at the game. we shouldn't look at it with 6 players starting at 100bb before the blinds are posted, because the blinds being posted isn't a decision point.

say we start a rake-free game with 4 GTO bots at 100bb, 1 (SB) at 99.5bb, and 1 (BB) at 99bb, with 1.5bb in the middle of the pot, and the sb/bb getting some discount. all 6 players should be at worst 0 EV.

just a modeling question mainly.

Posted over 4 years ago

pokerpilot33

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17 posts
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CarliC

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1 posts
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Befeltingu

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264 posts
Joined 12/2009

It's a bit of a frame of reference problem. The entire tree of decisions for the BB is likely to be -EV because of the posted blind, but the GTO strategy from that point onward is +EV (I think I'm explaining this properly - it's clear in my head but the words are a bit murky). You can make more in the BB by way of not losing more than the 1BB posted.

Here's a good topic to read and post in on this subject: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/131-Poker-Theory/578281-The-ev-of-open-folding-pr

Rob



Ya that all make sense to me. Thanks

Posted over 4 years ago

Befeltingu

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264 posts
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exactly. we start with 100 BB and we then post our BB. our analysis starts with our stack at 99 BB. for the purposes of our analysis, that 1 BB is dead money.



Ya saying that we start our analysis with our stack at 99bb makes sense. To me doing EV calculation from the frame of reference of difference in starting stacks makes the most sense to me. So EV of folding would be 99. Ev of a raise from the BTN is 101.5 assuming blinds always fold. It also makes certain calculations easier since the EV of losing your stack is 0 it makes a lot of terms drop out.

Posted over 4 years ago

danzasmack

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Thanks for the positive feedback guys, anyone who has more questions along the lines of this vid please feel free to contact me!

Posted over 4 years ago

HighOctane

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907 posts
Joined 09/2008

I dont think blinds lose money if all playing gto because everyone has to pay them. If everyone is playing gto, then no one can improve his strategy. Meaning the game is -ev for everyone and the house wins.

Edit: I think I know what you mean now. I may have misinterpreted your point.

Posted over 4 years ago

BigBadBabar

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nice vid. loved all the subtle little touches and references.

Posted over 4 years ago

ginzaboom

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35 posts
Joined 11/2012

When I watch videos like this, I just think about of how much I love poker! Thanks Danza!

Posted over 4 years ago

goldseraph

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StueysKid

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Joined 11/2009

I swear I remember a hand just like that posted here on DC within the last two weeks. Superuser > GTO all day long, but I think a Superuser that knows GTO will do even better than just a Superuser since he could predict the actions/frequencies of the opponent that is using GTO. In other words, game theory is helpful even if you're a superuser - how much more for the average schmoe?

Posted over 4 years ago

StackHunter

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Joined 09/2010

Good vid. Animations and practical examples were helpful to understand the concept. Plus I think you have a really good voice (and prob a good mic too). Looking forward to next vids.

Posted over 4 years ago

ginzaboom

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35 posts
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Plus I think you have a really good voice (and prob a good mic too). Looking forward to next vids.



+1. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that cares about the voice he's listening to!

Posted over 4 years ago

stanmore

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13Strike

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305 posts
Joined 07/2012

I swear I remember a hand just like that posted here on DC within the last two weeks. Superuser > GTO all day long, but I think a Superuser that knows GTO will do even better than just a Superuser since he could predict the actions/frequencies of the opponent that is using GTO. In other words, game theory is helpful even if you're a superuser - how much more for the average schmoe?



If your a superuser you can see the other persons cards. You wouldn't need GTO as there would be no game. Like playing Doom on god mode except you win $ all the time.......

Maybe you were thinking about being a superuser and balancing your theft in a way so that you would have a higher than average win rate, but not be detected.... aka a smart superuser playing a completely different game Poke Tongue

Posted over 4 years ago

StueysKid

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Joined 11/2009

of course you don't need it; I was saying that if you knew it and your opponent was using it, that you could predict his actions which is, along with the street cards, the only information you don't know as a superuser.

Posted over 4 years ago

suco21

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1 posts
Joined 02/2009

Nash equilibrium is not very practical in poker because:
1 people are not playing optimal 2 you don't know the utility function of the person you are playing against (do they value dollars linearly, do they present loss aversion, do they value more to bluff, etc)
In practice you should just read stats and act accordingly to your hand strength.

That being said if you are playing against an opponent, you guys have played a lot together and you are both good (good meaning that you are playing rational and know the other player strategy), then you are probably playing a dynamic game of incomplete information and the equilibrium is a Perfect Bayesian equilibrium (PBE), which is a Nash version for a dynamic (that is sequential, as opposed to estatic (people moving at the same time)) game of incomplete information (the information being incomplete because you dont know what is the other player's hand).
http://www.econport.org/econport/request?page=man_gametheory_incompinf
This reminds me to the advice that you guys give to bluff top pair on triple draw limit. As the pot is enormous you are gettin called so frequently that you have to bluff very rarely.

Posted over 2 years ago

dddogkillah

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2883 posts
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