Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Micro/Small Stakes)

Late Night Coaching with Joe Tall: Guest Coach Inavacuum Part 2

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Late Night Coaching with Joe Tall: Guest Coach Inavacuum Part 2 by Joe Tall, Sugar Nut, inavacuum

Joe Tall and guest coach Inavacuum return to finish their session review with Sugar Nut. They continue the discussion of the play of DC member Sugar Nut a.k.a. The Dude in a video review of 100NL 6max.

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Join Joe Tall every week as he takes a new DeucesCracked coach and DeucesCracked member to pore over a recently played session. Follow in-depth analysis of every hand by DeucesCracked coaches while Joe orchestrates the three-way audio, adding in his own unique metagame perspectives. Watch for a new coach and member every week!

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joe tall late night coaching inavacuum sugar nut 100nl $0.5/1 nlhe 6max hand replayer 100 nl

Video Details

  • Game: nlhe
  • Stakes: Micro/Small Stakes
  • 65 minutes long
  • Posted over 5 years ago

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Comments for Late Night Coaching with Joe Tall: Guest Coach Inavacuum Part 2

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MiheljoX

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8 posts
Joined 06/2008

at 3 minute is something wrong with video ....it is going to fast

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

I want to make a quick comment re the first hand as I don't know if I explained my thoughts that well (I don't remember and I don't have time to re-watch right at the minute). Shoving over the cbet and call on this flop does, in a way, look like exactly what it is but I think we need to approach the hand in terms of what we want to achieve above anything else. If our plan is to call or raise a standard amount and call/fold a blank turn then I think we should just fold pre flop since calling out of position vs an UTG raise isn't going to be profitable here often enough. If we call/raise the flop and we get there on the turn, that's all our action killed and it's going to be difficult in many scenarios to get more money in the pot. Discounting FE on the flop we're looking at a worse case (removing AhKh) of 40/60 pure equity, and I want to use it.

Posted over 5 years ago

Lateksi

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597 posts
Joined 03/2008

whats with the audio? if i fast forward (mp4) the audio disappears :S

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

Seems to be fine for me (wmv version), I'm sure Those In The Know will address any issues ASAP.

Posted over 5 years ago

TazUltimate

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Production Manager
2766 posts
Joined 01/2008

I am looking into these issues, hold on. Thanks.
-Rusty

Posted over 5 years ago

EpErOn

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134 posts
Joined 08/2008

the shove on the turn with QTs is not that obv too me. after such a big raise on the flop i think the range for villain to call is pretty narrow. Cuz he's tight i wouldnt normally put KJ in his UTG range here, but he might be 'reverse isolating' the fish.
Hand 1: 76.52% { KK+, JJ, AKs, KJs, AKo, KJo }

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

the shove on the turn with QTs is not that obv too me. after such a big raise on the flop i think the range for villain to call is pretty narrow. Cuz he's tight i wouldnt normally put KJ in his UTG range here, but he might be 'reverse isolating' the fish.
Hand 1: 76.52% { KK+, JJ, AKs, KJs, AKo, KJo }



In my above post I am only advocating a flop shove, when our equity vs his range can't be worse than 46% or so vs his possible range. The fact that this can happen on the turn is another reason why I advocate a flop shove. If we get into a turn decision here, I don't think we should even be in the hand to begin with.

Posted over 5 years ago

TazUltimate

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Production Manager
2766 posts
Joined 01/2008

Alright I have fought for this but finally I have a new copy of the mp4 version up. The other formats seem to be fine. Post if there are any more concerns. Cheers.
-Rusty

Posted over 5 years ago

EpErOn

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134 posts
Joined 08/2008

yeah i see your point in your first post (i started typing when there weren't any comments yet Wink. But given the action on the flop, the video does not evaluate the turn action that much. (Only that if we were gonna raise the flop, we should do it smaller or shove.)

my point is that even when we do raise this much on the flop, we should still find a check/fold on the turn. Maybe villain checks back the turn with AK and we hit a free card.

Posted over 5 years ago

Lateksi

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597 posts
Joined 03/2008

working fine now, thanks rusty, great job as usual!

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

yeah i see your point in your first post (i started typing when there weren't any comments yet Wink. But given the action on the flop, the video does not evaluate the turn action that much. (Only that if we were gonna raise the flop, we should do it smaller or shove.)

my point is that even when we do raise this much on the flop, we should still find a check/fold on the turn. Maybe villain checks back the turn with AK and we hit a free card.



I agree. I don't think I like just shoving this turn very much. But I don't think I get into this particular turn/stack/ev dichotomy often/ever.

Posted over 5 years ago

Jigsaws

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56 posts
Joined 02/2007

I'm listening to the first hand right now. I just want to remark that we're not trying to get the money in flipping. There's already $28 in the pot once we make the check-raise, so if they fold we win that money 100%. There's no way our EV is higher than $28 if we get it in on this flop vs. Kx or Jx. I was actually stoving around a little bit and couldn't find a range where we're actually a favorite to win this hand. We want them to fold!

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

I'm listening to the first hand right now. I just want to remark that we're not trying to get the money in flipping. There's already $28 in the pot once we make the check-raise, so if they fold we win that money 100%. There's no way our EV is higher than $28 if we get it in on this flop vs. Kx or Jx. I was actually stoving around a little bit and couldn't find a range where we're actually a favorite to win this hand. We want them to fold!



I agree with the facts you've presented completely. The problem is, if that's the approach we're taking overall (and it's a good one) then we shouldn't be calling pre flop as it's not +ev to do so. We've taken an unorthodox line and I've advocated contining with it post flop as regards shoving the flop (I don't actually think continuing on the turn given the hand as played is good). In this case because of the fish/maniac/whatever we've taken a less than optimal line pre flop and that changes the dynamics of the situation. It is of course totally standard and good to make the play you suggest if we do call pre flop, (I did want to play somewhat devil's advocate and go with a unorthodox line, and it's certainly what I'd do, not purely hypothetical), but if we're calling here pre flop every time, that's a leak.

Posted over 5 years ago

Jigsaws

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56 posts
Joined 02/2007

I didn't actually advocate any line. Smile

I actually agree with the check-raise, but for entirely different reasons. If the goal's not to "shovel money in the pot", but to get the maximum amount of folds, the way we play will be entirely different.

I would actually advocate the small check-raise because it leaves us enough room to shove the turn on a blank. As played AK is going to feel committed to going with the hand when you shove $55 into about a $100 pot, whereas $70 into $75 or so is going to make him think twice.

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of taking a line. Nor am I saying my goal is not to shovel money into the pot (though normally it certainly wouldn't be). Which method in this exact scenario gets the mosts folds/works most often/is most profitable I don't think we're going to agree on. Either way, I appreciate your thoughts.

Posted over 5 years ago

dw33p

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228 posts
Joined 08/2008

About the second hand where the villain shoves the turn on the 3rd flush card. If we had bet 11 on the flop (pot = 11+22=33), and about 28 on the turn as adviced, do we shove the last 54 effective dollars in the (11+22+56)=98 dollar pot or what is our river action then?

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

About the second hand where the villain shoves the turn on the 3rd flush card. If we had bet 11 on the flop (pot = 11+22=33), and about 28 on the turn as adviced, do we shove the last 54 effective dollars in the (11+22+56)=98 dollar pot or what is our river action then?



First off, I'm not saying we HAVE to bet 11+ on this flop, just that it's a line we can take profitably vs this particular villian if we so choose. I know that's nothing to do with your query, I just want to make the point. The river action, assuming we've bet bigger, doesn't change much because this villian is never ever bluffing. If we wanted to be sure we could bet a tiny amount as he is not capable of turning a weak made hand into a bluff (not that this would even make sense at that point), but I don't think that is necessary. If he's hit his hand he will shove, if he has any kind of 1 or 2pair or a set he will check, so it's still a fold for me. Vs a different opponent we'd be looking to play it slightly differently, especially if we feel they're capable of repping something as a bluff if scare cards do arrive, but since that never applies here we just want to extract vs someone who is never folding, he misses often enough that we can afford to build the pot in this way on the flop/turn and it's in our interests to do so.

Posted over 5 years ago

panzerkrieg

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160 posts
Joined 05/2008

On hand 1 what's wrong with just calling on the flop getting 3.5/1? I understand that by raising or shoving the villains will fold sometimes and there's $28.5 in the pot to win, but when they call their range is ahead of QhTh. It just seems like a very high variance play.

Posted over 5 years ago

inavacuum

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1239 posts
Joined 04/2008

On hand 1 what's wrong with just calling on the flop getting 3.5/1? I understand that by raising or shoving the villains will fold sometimes and there's $28.5 in the pot to win, but when they call their range is ahead of QhTh. It just seems like a very high variance play.



It is high variance. There is nothing wrong with just calling at all, it's a standard viable line. But if we're taking standard lines I'd rather just fold pre flop since it's not profitable to flat that hand in that position pre flop. We deviated from that line (for good reason) and I would continue to deviate from standard play post flop (for that hand alone).

Posted over 5 years ago

shark_fishin

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266 posts
Joined 03/2008

some great comments in this vid. i love this format, u can guess on the action on each street before the coach says the answer Smile

Posted over 5 years ago

SixMaxx

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22 posts
Joined 07/2008

Enjoy lurking and thinking about how people look at hands, but thought that hand #1 was one that seems to be frequent example of over-analysis. Again, I enjoy the back and forth, but here is my two cents......

One of the coaches in the video indicated it was a fold PF for them, but did it in a way to not take away from the current line of thinking. I think that is wrong. If you think it is a fold don't just go along because that is what is the polite thing to do. We then have a thread that is trying to cure cancer.Because you got stuck with a hand that you have np clue where you stand and even if you hit your hand, you still have 2nd best flush at best. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple....stupid)

Based on what we know preflop. UTG TAG player well respected. Button Maniac could have anything. Hero BB with a poor hand in poor position. FOLD..... let the UTG take this shot at the whale. If this were a hand from a subscriber and one of these coaches was asked to analysis it......they would be tearing the fish apart. AM I RIGHT?

Come on guys this game is pretty simple, don't make it harder than it needs to be.

EDIT- Just read Vinny VT's Article "Moving up", had to laugh. That is exactly what I am talking about FOLD!!!!!!!

Posted over 5 years ago

Paracelse

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25 posts
Joined 03/2008

On the first hands,

As played the turn is a c/f imo, he is not folding ever and we don't have enough equity to check/call.

On the flop i prefer a call than a c/r, the fold equity is what makes the raise ev+. There is a huge fish in a hand, that's not good for our FE, UTG preflop raiser Cbet on a coordinated flop with a big fish behind him, he probably hit, that's not good for our FE.
I think calling have a much higher EV than raising, and i don't think it's close.

And i think leading the flop is better than any other line.

Posted over 5 years ago

udownwithvpp

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1143 posts
Joined 04/2008

60:00 K9 hand I call the river cause villain's a fish and he's not repping anything. He could easily be playing AA like this. There's still a lot of combos of sets compared to just AA, but I'm discounting sets some since I think he'd bet the flop to protect his hand from the flush a lot, and I think he'd also raise the turn.

I think AAd and AK with a diamond makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately a made flush makes sense to me too, but given the way the hand went down I think it'd be a cooler if he had a flush and there's not as many combos of flushes especially since he min3bet preflop. I'm glad he actually had the nuts in this hand and hero folded so it doesn't look like I'm being result oriented when I say I like a call and hero calls and villain has AAd. The equity below is on a 7d9d3d2cKs board.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 77.778% 77.78% 00.00% 7 0.00 { Kc9c }
Hand 1: 22.222% 22.22% 00.00% 2 0.00 { AcAd, AdAh, AdAs, AdKd, AdQd, AcKd, AdKc, AdKh, AdKs, AhKd, AsKd }

Posted over 5 years ago

Mortimo

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90 posts
Joined 01/2008

I agree with guitarizt on the last hand, as passively as he played it. Btw, I think we can get more value out of him on the river.

Can`t give it 5 stars this time, given the reasons stated in other posts, but I get a lot out of the series in total, so keep the good work up!

Posted over 5 years ago

activee

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24 posts
Joined 11/2011

Time Link to 00:29:47

I don't agree that we have to shove on the turn.
I would give villain this range : KK,,JJ,33,KJ,AdKd,AsKs,AcKc,AdKs,AdKc,AsKd,AsKc,AcKd,AcKs
That's considering he prolly wants the maniac to get involved as you mentioned.

Against that range we are too far behind. 20%

Posted 5 months ago



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