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MTT: AMT (#5) - Review of a 45 man SNG Video

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MTT: AMT (#5) - Review of a 45 man SNG Video by AMT

AMT continues with another video in the push series. This episode has him reviewing the play of another at a 45 man SNG.

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For all those moments when you are sitting down to an event with more than 9 players our Instructors help you with the decisions to cull out the weak and make the final table.

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amt push sng video review ipod friendly

Video Details

  • Game: sng
  • Stakes: Mid Stakes
  • 61 minutes long
  • Posted over 5 years ago

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Comments for MTT: AMT (#5) - Review of a 45 man SNG Video

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BrianJensen

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490 posts
Joined 05/2008

Still watching the video...but what's with the flashed Jay-Z picture at 40:50? lol

Posted over 5 years ago

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

lol, I had major technical issues in trying to get this video done, sorry guys. One of which was my computer monitor shutting off every other minute. I think one of the times it flickered off and on again in the middle of the commentary, and it must've caught my wallpaper Smile Hope it's watchable/enjoyable regardless.

Posted over 5 years ago

BrianJensen

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490 posts
Joined 05/2008

Great review. I don't agree with one spot that you said you would rather a push where he folded. It was the hand ~39:50 (J9o). I don't agree with a shove here as you said would probably be best. You did go into detail here with game flow and showdown values, however it's our Top ~30% of our range with 4 people left to act and I think it's too loose. If it was soooooted, I could see how you would argue a shove here. Yes, we were on the FT bubble and we can exploit that a little bit, but I definitely think it's too loose. You're not going to get any 2 broadways to fold, pocket pairs, suited aces, off-suit aces and maybe even suited Kings down to K9. I think you're going to be called & behind too often to shove UTG.

Posted over 5 years ago

AMT

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Joined 01/2008

Great review. I don't agree with one spot that you said you would rather a push where he folded. It was the hand ~39:50 (J9o). I don't agree with a shove here as you said would probably be best. You did go into detail here with game flow and showdown values, however it's our Top ~30% of our range with 4 people left to act and I think it's too loose. If it was soooooted, I could see how you would argue a shove here. Yes, we were on the FT bubble and we can exploit that a little bit, but I definitely think it's too loose. You're not going to get any 2 broadways to fold, pocket pairs, suited aces, off-suit aces and maybe even suited Kings down to K9. I think you're going to be called & behind too often to shove UTG.



The main reason I wouldn't shove is cause we'd usually have to show down vs. the SB whose got a miniscule stack left and everyone would get to see that, but I don't even take huge issue with that. But with ~5bb effective stacks from the hijack I definitely think we've seen plenty of folding to this point in the tournament to assume we're a) going to win the pot (at least most of it in a side pot) a reasonable amount of the time and b) not necessarily be dominated when called.

I don't think the fact that some of these guys are calling off with QTs makes J9 a fold here necessarily, though I do think with what we've seen to this point that we do get folds out of plenty of the hands that you mentioned. People play wayyy way too tight and we've seen that in this tournament, to the point where I don't think a lot of these guys are calling it off with A2o or K9 on the FT bubble, as it seems to have exaggerated psychological effects when looking at how tight people are calling shoves.

That said, if you have been shoving a ton/don't think you have maximum FE with these stacks for some reason, I think it's a reasonable fold against those looser calling ranges, and the damages incurred to your stack if you get called and lose (but again, this needs to happen a good % of the time to make these types of spots clear folds imo). I'd absolutely push 5 handed if sb had a couple more BB's based on what we'd seen thus far, but it would prob. be at the bottom of my shoving range from this position (and I'd rather shove J9 than Q5).

Anyways thanks for the comments. As I mentioned in the video I do think it's pretty close.

Posted over 5 years ago

Jafeeio

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127 posts
Joined 02/2009

I blame it on you being sick and tired that you didnt take my comments into account. I explained many of the spots and tried to explain my actions, but it seemed like you were looking at it for the first time without prior knowledge.

This was a hand history I sent to AMT for private coaching because it showed many marginal spots and me passing up on them which ultimately was my reason to get coaching in the first place Wink

For the Q6 hand in the big blind: I was planning on getting it in on the flop, I dont like the donking out when these players are limping and betting most flops when checked to. On the turn I minbet because it looks weak and I'm definately calling a push.

3handed with the KTo: There is one hand he can trap with without making a huge ICM mistake when calling it off after sb folding his remaining 1/2 bb. 99% of the time he is just looking for a cooperative play to kick the sb out and I would look to push any2 to pick up the dead money and make headsup play even more easy.

Overall I hope this was an educational experience for everyone, it certainly was for me Wink

Posted over 5 years ago

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

Well, I knew you got some of them but who cares what your actual play was then Smile

You may not see most of the hands here/follow them by #, but here are Jaffeio's comments from this for those that want to look at how he was evaluating some of these spots in self-review/for coaching. If anyone wants the full .txt hh, assuming it's ok with Jaffeio, let me know and I can get that to you.

Pretty carddead at the beginning, might have pushed that A9 in the sb but seemed too close. We have seen traps at this table a few hands back.
Hand 25: easy push A2s in the sb
Hand 26: I'm pretty sure you are considering this push on the button, I didnt do it because I pushed the hand before but I think stacks are very good for a push here
Hand 36: One of the spots i dont like, having a middle pair after a push. In this hand we are both pretty early so I dont like a call here, but I'd love to hear your opinion
Hand 40: Limps again, way too much money in the pot and he might find a fold, as played out it's a flip and i run good.
Hand 41: very next hand, abc push.
Hand 42: first in push the button? hand looks pretty, I dont have much fold equity but with the money in the pot this should be fine.
Hand 44: great spot for aces
Hand 47: good spot to think about resteal / all in. He is never raise folding unless he is stupid. What do you push here? Again coming back to maintaining your stack and getting into a "big" flip
Hand 49: new table, bigger stacks so I just muck my KTo in middle position
Hand 50: way better hand and no way I'm folding there against a resteal from anyone so I just ship it
Hand 53: easy again
Hand 54: Hand is a bit low, but suited, live and connected, I should just push that
Hand 55: Blinds going up, good spot, hate the deuce
Hand 57: standard
Hand 58: this should be borderline. Table is still 8handed but very close muck in my opinion and a push shouldnt be -ev.
Hand 62: run good
Hand 63: run bad
Hand 65: QJo, dont like it. I have been very active but then again I only showed down decent hands. Torn there.
Hand 67: TPMK in a limped pot that hits his range pretty good, dont know what to do on the flop when he bets big. Casually bet a bb on the turn so he might think I'm bluffing and he can get me off it. Dont care too much about protection, he would have most likely bet a flushdraw on the flop, ready to stack off at this point.
Hand 73: too thin in my opinion, good stacks behind me to push into, soulread ofc included
Hand 74: fold the 54o otb, might be a push just because of the dead money but I dont have that much FE
Hand 75: deuces not cracked
Hand 77: after watching this I definately should have pushed the button, he is tight.
Hand 78: final table, this should really be a push with the upcoming bubble even though the hand sucks again
Hand 79: coolered

At this point I had a ridiculous big stack but ridiculous small and bad cards. I didnt want to push it too far but rather pick my spots and maintain my stack until we are deeper into the tournament

Hand 84: He had been fairly tight after losing the hand and I'm only getting 1.7 to 1, he should know that i might call a lot and with that many shortstacks still in the game he shouldnt be pushing too wide here
Hand 89: I honestly dont know what forramos is doing here.
Hand 90: Good hand on the bubble, ship it. Nobody that could hurt me can call anything here.
Hand 100: run good, standard hand
Hand 103: should have at least limped the button
Hand 104: really funny, i knew he couldnt call me once the SB folded "except he has aces".. run good end of story
Hand 108: folded the 36o, didnt want him to double up again
Hand 109: suck and resuck

Posted over 5 years ago

mattcky2876

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6 posts
Joined 08/2009

Very nice vid AMT. I was hoping to get involved in the 45 mans pretty soon and this will help big time.

One thing i have a question on.

Down to 3 handed on the FT, you made a comment on "cashtaker420"s screenname that signaled that he was a fish. What is the significance of "420"? Plz elaborate.

Posted over 5 years ago

Jafeeio

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127 posts
Joined 02/2009

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29




For the record, and I'm not sure if I clarified it in the video or not, it's specifically the use of the #'s in his screen name that made me more inclined to think he might be a weaker player, or at least to make note of it, not so much referencing anything about his actual indulgences irl Smile

Posted over 5 years ago

sostegno

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42 posts
Joined 09/2008

00:22:03 on 12/08/09: What about pot odd calls with like suited cards like JTs,Q6s,89s? I miss tons of such pot odd situations...well SNGwizz tells me so. Here with Q6s SNGwizz would suggest to stick it in.. i never do this. Whats your opinion on that?

Posted about 5 years ago

sostegno

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42 posts
Joined 09/2008

How does strategy differs between the 45 man turbos and a large MTT turbos structure and the 10min blind level MTTs (lets say 1/4 Mio GP on Stars).

The 45er have a brutal Blind structure, the other turbo MTT have a pretty flat structure compared to the 45ers, so you will find yourself alot of the time with awkward stacksizes between 15-20BB where pushing isnt the best opption, but folding (blinding down to a push fold stacksize) isnt optimal aswell, or is it?

In the 10min blind level MTT tourneys and low buy ins, that flat structure gives you much more time to wait for hands/ position and spots with those 15-20 BB stacks.


what do you think? How you handle this best?
You have a good strategy analysis for those different structures?

Posted about 5 years ago

AMT

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Joined 01/2008

00:22:03 on 12/08/09: What about pot odd calls with like suited cards like JTs,Q6s,89s? I miss tons of such pot odd situations...well SNGwizz tells me so. Here with Q6s SNGwizz would suggest to stick it in.. i never do this. Whats your opinion on that?



For starters, I don't think this was the final table? Calculating the $ value of pushes and calls prior to the final table in MTTs is often difficult, as you need all of the remaining stack sizes in the tournament in order to accurately calculate the value, which is outside the scope of ICM-based programs such as sngwiz or sngpt. For final table situations it becomes much more useful again, but you can still find value in running pushes earlier via different structures, using cEV to get some idea of the value differences, etc....

Anyways, as for the hand specifically, I would definitely not get it in with a hand like Q6s because of how poorly the hand likely plays in this situation. I really don't expect Q6s to fare better vs the hands that a 3.5-4bb stack is shoving than a hand like Ax (I don't think I'd call either of them in this spot, though). I also think that his stack is just big enough that he's not making crazily loose desperation shoves for the most part (AKA people tend to be way too tight in these spots due to blind equity loss considerations). I've only spotted the observant regulars who are capable of making particularly loose 3-5bb shoves UTG, but it's only when a random has shown me that they are just that laggy that I'm willing to make that assumption in this spot vs. an unknown player. Depending on how wide I perceived the player to be, I can see getting it in with several worse Aces, lots of broadway combinations (yes perhaps JTs as well), and pairs. If he was slightly shorter, or I perceived his range to be particularly wide here, I would then definitely consider getting it in with a hand like Q6s or 98s. If he was pushing say ~1100 chips instead, my range would become even wider than that probably, both because of the increasingly attractive pot odds combined with the presumably wider shoving range.

Posted about 5 years ago

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

How does strategy differs between the 45 man turbos and a large MTT turbos structure and the 10min blind level MTTs (lets say 1/4 Mio GP on Stars).

The 45er have a brutal Blind structure, the other turbo MTT have a pretty flat structure compared to the 45ers, so you will find yourself alot of the time with awkward stacksizes between 15-20BB where pushing isnt the best opption, but folding (blinding down to a push fold stacksize) isnt optimal aswell, or is it?

In the 10min blind level MTT tourneys and low buy ins, that flat structure gives you much more time to wait for hands/ position and spots with those 15-20 BB stacks.


what do you think? How you handle this best?
You have a good strategy analysis for those different structures?



It's kind of tough to make generalizations about this type of stuff. I will say that in bigger field MTTs, the value of the ante's combined with the noticeably lessened bias against confrontation allows us to shove a bit deeper than in the MTT SNG structures. There are times when I think 15bb open jams are pretty standard in bigger field MTTs where I really would never dream of it in a SNG setting most of the time in a similar situation.

With 15-20bb you're going to be doing more open shoving, some very small opening, and especially as you get toward 20-25bb, perhaps more restealing as well than you would in the smaller games. Overall the 15-20bb stacks in big field MTTs are like handcuffs; you just can't do a ton with them Poke Tongue

I suggest posting some hands in the tournament forum that best illustrate examples of these spots that you're having difficulties with. This will give us a more solid foundation for discussion. Gl.

Posted about 5 years ago

moose_334

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13 posts
Joined 12/2009

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

Whats with this pic flashing??



Jay Z is my boy and I've started a Jay Z cult. I know I shouldn't use my Jay Z-based religious views to influence DCers here for poker strategy, but I just can't help myself sometimes Frown

edit: but seriously,
See my 1st reply in this thread. Very sorry if it was off-putting or interfered with watch-quality. Hope that you enjoyed regardless.

Posted almost 5 years ago

seanj2112

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8 posts
Joined 08/2009

Time Link to 00:05:55

Question: I am curious how much jamming here with marginal hand(which I often do) is really long term profitable? I find my self in this spot often and only to find someone limped with a decent pair (1010,JJ,QQ) and is more than willing to call leaving you drawing to a three outer. Yesterday I got played like this holding 1010 and shoved to find AA limped from MP.

Posted almost 5 years ago

seanj2112

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Time Link to 00:21:17

I don't see how shoving A10 from EP1 with a healthy chip stack is profitable in this spot. Why are the results of the play hidden?

Posted almost 5 years ago

JtX

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621 posts
Joined 12/2009

I made a filter in HEM to get just these kinds of hands. Big blind more than 100, Preflop Action Facing Player 2+ Limpers, PFR = True, Allin Preflop = True. These positions aren't that common, I have only 712 hands with 2 or more limpers out of 86000 this year.

I got 53 hands (about +50BB total), from 12$ 45s and 16$ 18s, where someone has called my shove. I have shoved into a premium hand just 8 times, one limped AA, 3x limped QQ, 2x limped TT and 2x limped AKs. In addition to these 53 hands, I got 29 straight folds from two+ limpers (by removing Allin Preflop-clause and adding Saw Flop = False). The folds made me +83BB more. Seeing all this, I should probably shove more than the ~13% I'm shoving now, because these spots seem wildly profitable even for a wider range.

When shoving A9o, you will get dominated more often than you get matched against premiums (as people will limp-call with AT, AJ and AQ, but generally I believe you will get a fold 1/3 of the times and face a premium hand just 1/10 of the times you shove.

Probably you should run the filters yourself and see how these spots seem to work in your current games? My 80 shoves don't have a lot of statistical significance, but still way more than one single shove.

Posted almost 5 years ago

AMT

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2036 posts
Joined 01/2008

Seanj,

Yeah people sometimes limp monsters. More and more nowadays too. The fact remains though, that they tend to overlimp with them less, and that most of the people doing this have a much much wider limping range than just monsters. Ranges in that sort of spot have tightened up considerably over the last few years I'd say, from when you could push any Ax hand and like JT and K9s etc... to having to focus on a bit narrower of a value range. But to completely eliminate this move from our arsenal I believe would be a huge, huge mistake leaving so much money in pots where people are just too likely to have too wide of a range too often. It's already incredibly easy for the human brain to capture and remember the times when we shove into AA and KK and QQ, but even easier to forget about all those times we shove over limpers and simply take down the blinds uncontested (which should be our primary goal in doing so).

Re: The ATs hand, as I mentioned in the video, I'd prefer to be a bit shorter with 1 or 2 of those stacks behind, but unless one of those two guys was calling off pretty widely, which I typically do not find to be the case at all in that type of dynamic (when a big stack utg+1 Jams and some 10-15 bb stack is in the HJ or CO or something), then it should be a reasonable shove. ATs and AJo look to be about the cutoff for me there (and as mentioned if we were a bit shorter with them I wouldn't be surprised if they were unexploitable pushes). Looking at it now though, I might prefer a small raise actually, folding to the 6k stack if he shoves and *possibly* that 4300 stack (if we have the right info on him really, otherwise it's too big of a risk for error IMO), and calling everyone else for sure.

Re: the results, I guess I can't say with 100% certainty given that this was made a little while ago, but since the results are usually irrelevant to the point being made, I don't always focus on running through them. If he gets snapped by AK here it tells us precisely nothing about anything. I suppose if he got snapped by 96s that it is more likely to be an unfavorable push from this position. I feel like I'd have included the results if anything were noteworthy from them that I felt you should take away from the video. As you can see in the following hand though, he lost that pot Poke Tongue

Posted almost 5 years ago

seanj2112

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8 posts
Joined 08/2009

Alright, very cool your in depth response. I really wasn't expecting that, and I really appreciate you taking the time AMT.

Posted almost 5 years ago



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