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Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by WiltOnTilt (Mid Stakes)

Good stuff. Great series.

Time Link to 00:18:34

Due to the fact that most TAGS are checking the 9 turn with overpairs, how do you recommend playing a hand like 77 here? If we check behind and villain bets river, we really can't beat anything in his value range. If we bet the turn, we can't get called by worse...so are we checking behind and folding to any river bet (besides a 7)? What if the river is another 9 and he bet/ch/bets?

Time Link to 00:22:32

I'm a little confused by your river shove here with trips. You talk about how many villains are capable of bet/folding overpairs to a turn raise, while others will not bet them. It sounds like this, as well as balance, are the reasons you chose to flat the turn. On the river, you say his betsize looks like thin value, so when you decided to ship, I figured you had air or a missed draw (and expected him to fold AK/AA). When you see your hand, however, it appears your shove is for value. So what worse hands do you think bets 3 streets (and these sizes) and calls this shove? Worse 9's? are you making an assumption that since he bet the turn and you flatted, he's removed most 9's from your range and is prepaired to call with hands like AK/AA to a shove thinking you have a missed draw?

Due to the fact that most TAGS are checking the 9 turn with overpairs, how do you recommend playing a hand like 77 here? If we check behind and villain bets river, we really can't beat anything in his value range. If we bet the turn, we can't get called by worse...so are we checking behind and folding to any river bet (besides a 7)? What if the river is another 9 and he bet/ch/bets?

you could bet turn/shove river as a bluff or just try and showdown.

I'm a little confused by your river shove here with trips. You talk about how many villains are capable of bet/folding overpairs to a turn raise, while others will not bet them. It sounds like this, as well as balance, are the reasons you chose to flat the turn. On the river, you say his betsize looks like thin value, so when you decided to ship, I figured you had air or a missed draw (and expected him to fold AK/AA). When you see your hand, however, it appears your shove is for value. So what worse hands do you think bets 3 streets (and these sizes) and calls this shove? Worse 9's? are you making an assumption that since he bet the turn and you flatted, he's removed most 9's from your range and is prepaired to call with hands like AK/AA to a shove thinking you have a missed draw?

yes, assuming he's not always folding overpairs to a river shove

Another great episode guys, the discussion between you two is incredibly insightful.

One thing I'd like to ask you both is what process do you use to analyze hands in game? I know that sounds really basic and maybe obvious, but I notice that at least for me I sometimes struggle to put all of the pieces together at times while I'm playing. Then I'll go back and review my sessions and see a few spots where after some deeper analyzation it's clear I made a mistake and didn't consider one or two important aspects of the hand. Some of that can be attributed to results oriented thinking, but I can't help but think my winrate would double if I was more efficient at the hand-reading pace necessary online. I mean, I still think I'm better than most at it, but it's something I really want to improve on.

Where I'm going with this is that I'm actually trying to come up with a hand-reading checklist I can refer to (at least until it becomes natural for me) when I'm in a session and I was hoping you guys might share some thoughts on the expedited thought processes you use to hand read in-game. I mean, you guys spent 45 minutes discussing three hands, which just goes to show how many aspects there are to consider on every hand. But surely within the one minute or so you have to make a decision online you aren't able to exhaust all of these different options, so what particular aspects do you focus on? I'm sorry if this is too vague of a question, but you guys are both brilliant poker minds and I want to get a better idea of what aspects you consider step by step when you're in a hand.

Aaron

Final hand

You talk about how it is understandable for villian to bet/call A7o although it suprised you.......I guess because he could check it back or c-bet fold.

Having seen this - does it make it alot thinner for you to v-bet this river - if he is bet-calling Ace high? Given he is OTB thus has basically every Ax combo outside of AA and Axcc that he bet/3bets.

If you were villian

(a) checked back flop
(b) would it make any difference if you were to bet/call Axo whether you held A or not
(c) What are the reasons to not bet when you check the turn - with Ace high? umm if you are unsure whether Hero C/r top pair or not
(d) what is the worse hand villian can raise river for value given you are not repping that much?

As villian vs a player who c/r top pair - how do you avoid him turning all of your non-nut range into bluffcatchers?

Time Link to 00:09:05

I think one of the biggest leaks of 6 max games at the 2/4 level is peoples tendency not to value bet thin enough. I think many times what yo u will see here from a hand like A9 is possibly another barrel on an under card but he will check a T-K, most clubs and possibly even a 7.
That being said I think in this particular spot depending on villains tendency to double barrel there is a much stronger case to be made for raising this flop with JJ than floating. The decision has to be made entirely based on his 2nd barrel tendency and whether or not this particular board will induce him to bluff the turn or not.

Another great episode guys, the discussion between you two is incredibly insightful.

One thing I'd like to ask you both is what process do you use to analyze hands in game? I know that sounds really basic and maybe obvious, but I notice that at least for me I sometimes struggle to put all of the pieces together at times while I'm playing. Then I'll go back and review my sessions and see a few spots where after some deeper analyzation it's clear I made a mistake and didn't consider one or two important aspects of the hand. Some of that can be attributed to results oriented thinking, but I can't help but think my winrate would double if I was more efficient at the hand-reading pace necessary online. I mean, I still think I'm better than most at it, but it's something I really want to improve on.

Where I'm going with this is that I'm actually trying to come up with a hand-reading checklist I can refer to (at least until it becomes natural for me) when I'm in a session and I was hoping you guys might share some thoughts on the expedited thought processes you use to hand read in-game. I mean, you guys spent 45 minutes discussing three hands, which just goes to show how many aspects there are to consider on every hand. But surely within the one minute or so you have to make a decision online you aren't able to exhaust all of these different options, so what particular aspects do you focus on? I'm sorry if this is too vague of a question, but you guys are both brilliant poker minds and I want to get a better idea of what aspects you consider step by step when you're in a hand.

great question, I wish I had a "simple" answer for you, but it's simply something that comes with practice. Most of the stuff you hear us discussing crosses my mind in game, but it all happens very fast and has taken me a long time to get there. I think the best thing you can do is post game analysis combined with limiting # of tables you play sometimes. Use the time bank, focus hard on always analyzing your opponents ranges, etc...

Another great episode guys, the discussion between you two is incredibly insightful.

One thing I'd like to ask you both is what process do you use to analyze hands in game? I know that sounds really basic and maybe obvious, but I notice that at least for me I sometimes struggle to put all of the pieces together at times while I'm playing. Then I'll go back and review my sessions and see a few spots where after some deeper analyzation it's clear I made a mistake and didn't consider one or two important aspects of the hand. Some of that can be attributed to results oriented thinking, but I can't help but think my winrate would double if I was more efficient at the hand-reading pace necessary online. I mean, I still think I'm better than most at it, but it's something I really want to improve on.

Where I'm going with this is that I'm actually trying to come up with a hand-reading checklist I can refer to (at least until it becomes natural for me) when I'm in a session and I was hoping you guys might share some thoughts on the expedited thought processes you use to hand read in-game. I mean, you guys spent 45 minutes discussing three hands, which just goes to show how many aspects there are to consider on every hand. But surely within the one minute or so you have to make a decision online you aren't able to exhaust all of these different options, so what particular aspects do you focus on? I'm sorry if this is too vague of a question, but you guys are both brilliant poker minds and I want to get a better idea of what aspects you consider step by step when you're in a hand.

Obviously +1 to everything jared mentioned. Some stuff I might add is that there are some mental shortcuts you should start developing (you've already done this, no doubt) about different situations and hand ranges. Some of these mental shortcuts might have to do with recognizing board textures with how many draws are out there (gutshots, OESD, flush draws) plus realizing the likelihood (combinatorically) ((is that a word?? lol)) of big hands, such as 2pairs, sets, overpairs, whatever given the filtered ranges of all the hands he can have street by street.

Like Jared said, the more you do it in post-game and the more you talk poker with people (similar to how Jared and I do it in the videos) the more you will begin to recognize these patterns. I'm pretty sure I recognize your screen name from 2p2, so I know you've been around the block before and I'm sure most of this advice isn't revolutionary to you.

The other thing that's worth pointing out is that sometimes you (and us) will simply fail at the in game analysis. 2 examples of this occurred in the last video where we put in hands each of us played where we screwed them up in game. Krantz likes to say "don't be surprised" about someone's possible hands. When you do get surprised, it's time to mark the hand in HEM and review it later. Seriously, every hand you get surprised about, whether or not you were involved.

In the age of the nanonokos of the world, it's tough to slow down and sit back and try to dig through every action of every hand to filter it down to the logical choices. Hell, even if you have the patience to do so, it doesn't even mean you'll come up with the correct answers because experience and study matters a lot. You have to be able to have seen and remembered (from vids or experience) past situations to remember/analyze/mold your answer/range about the current situation.

I feel the pain of those who have been around a while who are trying to perfect this art as well as those who are very new to the game trying to just start their hand reading. I feel their pain because a) I've been in their shoes in the past and b) I'm currently in their shoes in the present with PLO. When trying to learn PLO and hand read, I'm finding myself saying "I would play XYZ hand in this way, but what is the "standard" for my opponents? What should I EXPECT the DEFAULT assumptions would be?" To answer these critical questions (which, in turn, help our hand reading with some mental short cuts) you need both experience playing and experience studying poker through either videos, pokerstoving, hh analysis with friends, etc.

In terms of your last sentence regarding a "step by step" approach, I encourage you to take the next hand you mark for review from your next session you play. Look at the hand and get your pokerstove out. Start with his vpip by position. Let's say villain opened UTG and is 15% from that position. Select those 15% of hands. If you use the slider, you might notice some hands that are in the top 15% that aren't REALLY in his range. Make some assumptions based on how you think he plays it. Now take his flop range based on the board texture, bet size, number of players, any image considerations you recall, etc. Start unchecking those hands. Do the same for the turn, and for the river, etc.

Going through that process is essentially what we do for every action of a hand in our heads. We can do it in our heads because we've talked about it together (and with others) enough that the filter becomes automatic. I'm sure it's automatic for you in many situations too. Start doing it for more complex situations. If you aren't sure whether or not to include a specific hand (remember, you dont have to include 100% of the combos for each selection!) then ask a friend or post a question in the forums. See what others say and lean on their experience.

This process is basically how to read hands. Start with all possible combos of all hands and start filtering down based on the stats we have, the reads we have, history, logical progression of how the hand goes down, and all the other variables at play (you can even include gut instinct in this too, it's not just all the math).

The more you do it, the faster it will go, and the more on the fly you'll get. After enough work, you'll get to the point where like Jared and I, we have talked so much poker we basically know how we both view certain situations and can cut down to the intricacies of how many combos of which hands can we include or discount (filter) from the range and why. It's not so much different from what you do already in more routine situations.

Hope that helps

WoT

edit: yikes that was long lol

Aaron

Final hand

You talk about how it is understandable for villian to bet/call A7o although it suprised you.......I guess because he could check it back or c-bet fold.

Having seen this - does it make it alot thinner for you to v-bet this river - if he is bet-calling Ace high? Given he is OTB thus has basically every Ax combo outside of AA and Axcc that he bet/3bets.

If you were villian

(a) checked back flop
(b) would it make any difference if you were to bet/call Axo whether you held A or not
(c) What are the reasons to not bet when you check the turn - with Ace high? umm if you are unsure whether Hero C/r top pair or not
(d) what is the worse hand villian can raise river for value given you are not repping that much?

As villian vs a player who c/r top pair - how do you avoid him turning all of your non-nut range into bluffcatchers?

Excellent questions, as usual, Digger.

a - my default would be to check behind his hand against tough players, bet it vs straight forward players, and bet it vs loose/bad players. IMO if he's going to bet this hand vs tough players, he needs to be prepared to make some hard decisions when checkraised and when facing heat on the river if he bets, checks the turn, and the river blanks. In order to make good decisions here, he better have a damn good idea about some exploitabilities (did i make up another word in this thread? lol) in his opponents ranges. For that reason, I'd rather have this hand in my check behind range, in addition to some other reasons

b - the biggest determining factor for whether or not i'd want to bet/call the A vs another A is what I outlined in part a) above. Sure having the Ac helps, but i'd likely rather just check it behind vs many opponents. Keep in mind, checking behind isn't exactly a free lunch either since we have to make some tough turn/river calls or folds based on what we know about our opponents. I personally find these decisions a bit easier than playing checkraise or river games vs guys who have both good checkraising ranges and also good river bluffing ranges (ie they can float oop but arent horribly unbalanced doing so)

c - yes it comes back to the flop checkraising range and what he does with various parts of that range. Whether or not he can have top pair is a good one, also what sort of turn semibluffing range he might have, also what his perceived range is for bet/calling the flop. For instance, whether or not I might go for a double c/r here with a set might depend on whether i've seen him pot control hands weak/medium hands in the past or whether he prefers to bet to protect (and i dont mean simply just in checkraise spots, could be any spot, like 3bet pot IP, or single raised pots IP, etc) Vs many straight forward players whose range is a few unlikely sets and tons of draws which aren't willing to semibluff the turn, betting your A high for "value" (and protection) is certainly fine...just so long you realize you're betting it for value and not a bluff... of course that doesn't mean you can't bluff it on the river. Hmm... sound familiar to an AJ hand you've seen?

d - Any 2pair should be able to raise, but of course it's tough for him to have any 2p besides A2 and A4. To an astute hand reader, I'm repping about what I have, either Jx that trapped/pot controlled the turn or Axcc or set/2pair that went for double c/r. If he did bet/call a big A on the flop, he could in theory value ship the river (depending on my flop/turn/river ranges) and turn it into a levelling game if he knew that TP was in my range. I very well might bet/call QJ here if I get jammed on by some players because they aren't repping much either (especially if they check behind A2 or A4 sometimes on the flop, as some people do). In order to ship AQ here, he better have some good reads about my flop c/r range. I could certainly envision a scenario where I might semibluff KQcc on the flop, check the turn and bet/call K high on this river vs some players. Of course it would be a huge exception to the norm, but you could see how the variables would be able to fall into place for that to happen. If those variables are in place, a good hand reader could value ship AQ here and hope that I have enough thin value and showdown value bluffs in my range to make a hero call.

WoT

Thanks for the responses Aaron.

One follow up question - with just a bit of context/background.

Clearly 10/20 games are far different from the micro/small stakes games.
Also clearly you have a far better capacity to hand read than I do.

I am interested in developing a c/r game OOP vs steal range - which is not a polarised range of nut draws/ nut made balanced with good air.
So c/raising tp which I saw you develop in your earlier HU series and your explanation of how being thinner and less polarised has a cascading effect throughout your game.
The problem I have is - what I have been finding is that vs less good hand readers and nittier small/micro games - that I end up or maybe just feel like I am value-cutting spew monkey too much and/or I get lost on turn and river.

So the question I have is:
What are the parameters by which I should be guiding myself as to when I should be c/r top pair or not? ( An assumption that it is a reasonable top pair like 9-K)
(A) villian type/ tendencies - like ok sure vs fish but what regulars
(B) How do I know which st to get the 2nd st on turn or river?


Sorry if that is a waaaaaaaaaay too big a question in a vacuum.

Dan

Because part of that 10/20 hand example - is based upon your range being wieghted toward draws and air and the capacity of villian to recognise that.

Time Link to 00:05:18

Jared

SB is a 60bb half stacker.

Your BTN 3B range vs CO open.

How is it affected by the 60bb stack?
What hands would you flat which you would otherwise 3bet for value to leave the possibility of 60bb be in the pot?
What hands would you fold that you might 3bet bluff because of the 60bb stack?


Also

If TAG in BB had a 10% or higher squeeze stat - what hands would you 3bet to prevent a squeeze and what hands would you fold rather than flat if there was a good chance of a squeeze?

Time Link to 00:16:41

I definitely prefer betting overpairs here, because there is still lots of value and I also think it makes the hand easier to play. Although I'm not the top card pairing does make things a little trickier, I like it better than checking and playing a guessing game on the turn/river.

Jared

SB is a 60bb half stacker.

Your BTN 3B range vs CO open.

How is it affected by the 60bb stack?
What hands would you flat which you would otherwise 3bet for value to leave the possibility of 60bb be in the pot?
What hands would you fold that you might 3bet bluff because of the 60bb stack?


Also

If TAG in BB had a 10% or higher squeeze stat - what hands would you 3bet to prevent a squeeze and what hands would you fold rather than flat if there was a good chance of a squeeze?

generally it just polarizes my range. for example, KQ gets called much more often with the shorty there

if BB were squeezer, strategy would prob be the same because polarizing will still leave me with plenty of hands to play vs a squeeze

I definitely prefer betting overpairs here, because there is still lots of value and I also think it makes the hand easier to play. Although I'm not the top card pairing does make things a little trickier, I like it better than checking and playing a guessing game on the turn/river.

yea, betting is generally best

Thanks for the responses Aaron.

One follow up question - with just a bit of context/background.

Clearly 10/20 games are far different from the micro/small stakes games.
Also clearly you have a far better capacity to hand read than I do.

I am interested in developing a c/r game OOP vs steal range - which is not a polarised range of nut draws/ nut made balanced with good air.
So c/raising tp which I saw you develop in your earlier HU series and your explanation of how being thinner and less polarised has a cascading effect throughout your game.
The problem I have is - what I have been finding is that vs less good hand readers and nittier small/micro games - that I end up or maybe just feel like I am value-cutting spew monkey too much and/or I get lost on turn and river.

So the question I have is:
What are the parameters by which I should be guiding myself as to when I should be c/r top pair or not? ( An assumption that it is a reasonable top pair like 9-K)
(A) villian type/ tendencies - like ok sure vs fish but what regulars
(B) How do I know which st to get the 2nd st on turn or river?


Sorry if that is a waaaaaaaaaay too big a question in a vacuum.

Dan

Hey Dan, start off by reading my post responding to surfdoc in this other thread if you haven't: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/13-Videos/topics/220471-Where-the-Buffalo-Roam-Ep/posts/1854501--quote-Care-to-comment-on

The gist is I don't mold my range around being less polarized just for the heck of it, I mold it around the villain in question. You wouldn't 3bet KQ vs a guy who folds 80% of the time right? You'd rather be polarized vs him because of that information. Same holds true for your checkraising range. Read that link above and post if you have follow up questions.

Time Link to 00:32:43

really disagree with this thin a vbet against a fish without decent history, he simply does not have the capacity to call with worse

really disagree with this thin a vbet against a fish without decent history, he simply does not have the capacity to call with worse

WoT agreed that it might be a bit too thin, but it's a good spot to demonstrate how 6-max regs (myself included) aren't value betting enough. Personally I wouldn't value bet Q7 as well, but I do believe that if you bet like 1/3 pot on the river he will talk himself into a call with 7x because people don't like folding pairs to small bets especially when all the draws missed.

Thanks for the responses, especially WoT for that novel!

I just re-read my post and it sounds really noobish. As you alluded to, I've been around 2p2 and training sites for a long time, so it's not as if hand-reading is a revolutionary concept to me. I actually believe that it's one of the best aspects of my game, but the issue for me is that I tend to be a lot better at doing all of the analyzation after the session than doing it in game. What usually happens is I'll forgot to weight one particular aspect that would have swayed my decision differently.

For example, maybe I try to run a bluff in a spot where I likely would have taken a different line with a strong hand in villain's eyes, or maybe I make a calldown where when you think about it it's really hard for him to have air. Just one simple aspect that due to the distractions of other tables (and I'm no mass multitabler by any means) or the short timebank I forget to consider.

Hopefully that clarifies my position a little bit. I can analyze hands extremely well thanks largely to videos like this and spending so much time on 2p2, it's just that I could use some reminders when I play so that I don't carelessly forgot one particular detail that could make or break the hand. For example, here's a little general checklist of things to think about during a hand that I came up with.

If I'm bluffing:

What hands does he get this far with?
How much of his range can I reasonably fold out?
What is the top of his range?
Is my line congruent with what I'm representing?


If I'm valuebetting thinly:

What is his overall range to get to this spot?
How often does he have a better hand?
How likely is it that I can represent a bluff?

If I'm bluffcatching:

How often does he get here without showdown value?
How many combos of value hands does he have?
What is the worst hand he is valuebetting?
What does my hand look like?
Does his bet sizing tell us anything?

It's just something I can look at when I'm in a hand so that I make sure I consider the more important aspects of the hand. Anything you might want to add to what I have so far?

Yeah I have that problem too - of working out what range I am repping with a line in game.

So putting him on a range is ok - taking the next step can sometimes be a bridge too far on some complex situations on later streets.

Great series and great discussion itt!

The "unbeatable hand" story is the greatest thing ever. I've watched the video twice but I've watched the first 6 minutes like 10 times!!

I like your line with QJ but wats your plan if he 3bets flop?

Fantastic series. Love the format, love the quality of analysis, and you guys are entertaining to listen to as well. Moaaaaaaar!

I like your line with QJ but wats your plan if he 3bets flop?

call and check is probably how i'm playing much of my range that is continuing here, except sometimes shipping strong hands and decent draws and folding the bad draws/semibluffs

whether i'm check/folding or chk/calling has to do with how i think my opponent perceives my range here. vs many it is a c/f but vs some i'm continuing.

Time Link to 00:14:42

Isn`t checking here in Villain`s shoes with TT/JJ on the turn actually good, on average?
I mean, as you said - this is not a turncard where we can expect Villain to continue bluffing -> so we cannot call too light (77,8x, doublefloats...)
So it seems that C/Calling to floatcatch (vs. low FDs, JT, QJ...) has in this spot some merits. What you think?

Isn`t checking here in Villain`s shoes with TT/JJ on the turn actually good, on average?
I mean, as you said - this is not a turncard where we can expect Villain to continue bluffing -> so we cannot call too light (77,8x, doublefloats...)
So it seems that C/Calling to floatcatch (vs. low FDs, JT, QJ...) has in this spot some merits. What you think?

it def has some merit, obv there's some leveling and you could use a different part of your range to c/c, etc..

Time Link to 00:34:51

Seems like a little thin to me (we need >50% vs. his callingrange to make a val.bet better than a CB):
Vs. something like this,
TT-88, 66-55, 22, AdTd, A7s, KdJd, KdTd, K7s, Q7s, JdTd, Jd9d, Jd8d, J7s, Jd6d, Td9d, Td8d, T7s, 97s, 87s, 74s+, A7o, K7o, Q7o, J7o, 97o, 87o,
we only have about 40% EQ.

-> with K7o we already would have 48,5% EQ and A7o would be with 57% EQ already a clear Val.bet

But anyways, all your both`s mentioned thoughts, ideas and views on this in general are very great imo^^

Time Link to 00:43:44

I don`t get why it is good for Villain to bet here for example KJ vs. our perceived range when checking the turn (sometimes tricky sets, air and rarely a worse TP...)?

I don`t get why it is good for Villain to bet here for example KJ vs. our perceived range when checking the turn (sometimes tricky sets, air and rarely a worse TP...)?

balance, a little value, and protection

balance, a little value, and protection

all right, thx.
I think, mixing it up seems like a good idea (exspecially when you have in such spots delayed floating in your overall gameplan)