Poker Video: Misc/Other by DeathDonkey (Micro/Small Stakes)

1st

A 2-7 video? It's like you guys read my mind. This one's a bit basic for me, but I expect some advanced play later in the series.

Kansas City Lowball is no limit 2-7 single draw.

Can't wait for next week when we get to see some action.

I'm very excited for this one, I've always enjoyed triple draw but never was able to find much literature about it.

would defo love to see some sort of series on NL 2-7

I'm really looking forward to this series. And love the retro intro :-p gg guys.

DD,
watched this, read Negreanu's chapter in Super System 2, played some and made a vid.
couple of novice questions.
1)743XX UTG 6 handed, open? maybe you are doing a starting hand chart later?
2)874XX MP open?
3)UTG raises, we are CO with 752XX..do we cold call or 3 bet?
4)How do we treat 765XX, and 654XX?
5) Two players,each drawing one card on the 3rd draw, do we VB a made JXXXX,QXXXX?
6)UTG raises...we are btn with 872XX? we are BB with 42XXX?

Good video to cover the basics, i really like how you explain Deathdonkey. And DJ Sensei, you can't seriously make us believe you don't know the game at least a little? You've made mostly really good points.

Wish this game was more common.

DD,
watched this, read Negreanu's chapter in Super System 2, played some and made a vid.
couple of novice questions.
1)743XX UTG 6 handed, open? maybe you are doing a starting hand chart later?
2)874XX MP open?
3)UTG raises, we are CO with 752XX..do we cold call or 3 bet?
4)How do we treat 765XX, and 654XX?
5) Two players,each drawing one card on the 3rd draw, do we VB a made JXXXX,QXXXX?
6)UTG raises...we are btn with 872XX? we are BB with 42XXX?

Just replying here for the record, to see if i have a clue:

1) Fold, rough 2 card draw UTG easy fold imo.
2) Fold, really rough 3 or 2 card draw in MP, same.
3) 3bet, smooth draw with implieds, excellent 2 card draw.
4) Mostly fold both except in rare steal situation vs tight blinds. 3 card straight draws are trash i believe.
5) If i read correctly you are in position and stood pat against 2 players? Is that even a good play? I was under the impression it was not.
Anyway, in a vacuum i doubt it's a good idea to try valuebetting only hoping for him to bluffcatch with less against 2 player, it's only going to be fine against 1 player and seldomly.
6) I'm not sure about 872xx, i believe it's fold or call and draw 3 in pos. With 42xxx in BB i'd fold against most opponents but draw against a looser and/or fishier villain.

2-7 Triple draw fascinates me for some reason.

But for now I only have one odd request: You've HAVE TO make a special Badugi episode! Not that it's the same game or anything, but at least they're related and there's no Badugi stuff anywhere. ;-)

wow, this is a really cool game.

I like to draw 5 everytime and cap the betting. I think it's the most fun that way.

DD,
watched this, read Negreanu's chapter in Super System 2, played some and made a vid.
couple of novice questions.
1)743XX UTG 6 handed, open? maybe you are doing a starting hand chart later?
2)874XX MP open?
3)UTG raises, we are CO with 752XX..do we cold call or 3 bet?
4)How do we treat 765XX, and 654XX?
5) Two players,each drawing one card on the 3rd draw, do we VB a made JXXXX,QXXXX?
6)UTG raises...we are btn with 872XX? we are BB with 42XXX?

i've talked a lot of 2-7 w/ deathdonkey. (please chris let me know if i am way off anywhere here.)
1)usually fold. but deathdonkey has mentioned to me spots where you might open this type of hand if you had some pairs (e.g. 77433) also to increase the chance that you can steal/increase chances your opponents miss draws
2)no
3)i think there are arguments for both options
4)never playable except maybe on button vs tight or bad blinds
5)you shouldn't pat with J or Q (or even T unless you somehow have T6543 or something) vs two opponents drawing 1. but no, you would never value bet a J if you were pat. a bet there would be a bluff imo.
6)872 isn't playable facing a raise from utg. 832, 842, 852 are fine i think. 862 seems close. im assuming an average utg. obviously can change if he's very lag or very nitty.

Does anyone know what sort of VP$IP does the "standard" pre-draw recommendations add up to? Not that there's anything like a 27TD tracker but anyhow.

That should probably have some sort of relation to the blinds (and the amount of streets etc) meaning that it shouldn't be way off from the similar standards for limit hold'em, right?

i've talked a lot of 2-7 w/ deathdonkey. (please chris let me know if i am way off anywhere here.)
1)usually fold. but deathdonkey has mentioned to me spots where you might open this type of hand if you had some pairs (e.g. 77433) also to increase the chance that you can steal/increase chances your opponents miss draws
2)no
3)i think there are arguments for both options
4)never playable except maybe on button vs tight or bad blinds
5)you shouldn't pat with J or Q (or even T unless you somehow have T6543 or something) vs two opponents drawing 1. but no, you would never value bet a J if you were pat. a bet there would be a bluff imo.
6)872 isn't playable facing a raise from utg. 832, 842, 852 are fine i think. 862 seems close. im assuming an average utg. obviously can change if he's very lag or very nitty.

All correct, imo.

3) I tend to flat in this situation, but I see a lot of players prefer 3betting.
4) They're really never playable. No blinds are tight enough to play this.

2-7 Triple draw fascinates me for some reason.

But for now I only have one odd request: You've HAVE TO make a special Badugi episode! Not that it's the same game or anything, but at least they're related and there's no Badugi stuff anywhere. ;-)

Please DONT make any Badugi vids. I prefer to keep everyone clueless for a while if possible.

Cool episode (somehow I find time to watch this and none of the ones of games I actually play haha). Looking forward to playing this, also if you need a student for a Badugi series pick meeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

4) They're really never playable. No blinds are tight enough to play this.

Yeah, you're probably right.

Hey all,

Completely agree with blumpster and Jigsaws on those specific hand questions. I will discuss the situation in #3 where you can coldcall or reraise in greater detail in later episodes (there is disagreement among even very good players at 100/200+). I read #5 differently in that he was assuming we are one of the 2 players at the end, the answer to whether to value bet a J or Q that you make on the end when both draw one is "it depends A LOT". As I say in this episode that is basically a pure poker theory situation where whichever of you knows more about the other's tendencies and can exploit them, or which of you has the best balanced approach when no better information is present, will make money.

I might do like 1 or 2 badugi episodes at the very end as an intro but depends if they get up for real money on Stars by then. Also I am far less confident that I am a solid winning badugi player due to only playing it in live mix games, so my total hands played is laughably small.

-DeathDonkey

i've talked a lot of 2-7 w/ deathdonkey. (please chris let me know if i am way off anywhere here.)
1)usually fold. but deathdonkey has mentioned to me spots where you might open this type of hand if you had some pairs (e.g. 77433) also to increase the chance that you can steal/increase chances your opponents miss draws
2)no
3)i think there are arguments for both options
4)never playable except maybe on button vs tight or bad blinds
5)you shouldn't pat with J or Q (or even T unless you somehow have T6543 or something) vs two opponents drawing 1. but no, you would never value bet a J if you were pat. a bet there would be a bluff imo.
6)872 isn't playable facing a raise from utg. 832, 842, 852 are fine i think. 862 seems close. im assuming an average utg. obviously can change if he's very lag or very nitty.

4) I'd definitely open both of these on the button.

And DJ Sensei, you can't seriously make us believe you don't know the game at least a little? You've made mostly really good points.

I've played about 4 sessions of TD now, lifetime. But DD has taught me a lot already of course. And I like to think my general poker theory mind is pretty strong, so even though I haven't played much of this particular game before, I can pick up quickly on important concepts and how to apply them to new situations.

How would you rate Negreanu's TD chapter in SuperSystem2?

http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker/triple_draw_poker.cfm

How would you rate Negreanu's TD chapter in SuperSystem2?

http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker/triple_draw_poker.cfm

It's very helpful for a new player, with good starting hand requirements. It's a little on the weak tight side. It's all I knew when I started playing, it will give you the most important math (I tried to replicate in the slides) for common situations.

-DeathDonkey

Time Link to 00:19:07

Wouldn't it be better to just discard a 23xxx even after a limp if the rest of the players are agressive?

Wouldn't it be better to just discard a 23xxx even after a limp if the rest of the players are agressive?

Nah, its fine to limp behind in later position, because if somebody raises from the blinds then the limper will call and we'll call again, and we're still in a pretty favorable situation. I probably wouldn't limp behind in middle position in an aggressive game though.

Okay, but if you were in a rare occasion and knew that someone is a limp reraiser with premium hands, then you could get jammed in the pot. Depends on the read you have on the player.

Good video serie btw, I am enjoying it!

Okay, but if you were in a rare occasion and knew that someone is a limp reraiser with premium hands, then you could get jammed in the pot. Depends on the read you have on the player.

I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've see a L-RR in TDL ever, and I've played a lot of hands at this point! Of course it may be more common at smaller stakes, but I doubt its significant.

Good video serie btw, I am enjoying it!

Thanks!

is 22236 a hand you would consider snowing from UTG if called by only the c/o?
And if yes, would you also be snowing 22237 in that spot or play it for value?

is 22236 a hand you would consider snowing from UTG if called by only the c/o?
And if yes, would you also be snowing 22237 in that spot or play it for value?

I'd play both for value. Given how many 2's you've got, you're going to make much stronger hands than your opponents. I would rather snow with something like 77788, because our drawing potential is much worse but our ability to block our opponents from making hands is very good.

is 22236 a hand you would consider snowing from UTG if called by only the c/o?
And if yes, would you also be snowing 22237 in that spot or play it for value?

There are the type of hands where you should draw initially, but by the time you get to the turn unimproved, snowing becomes a very good option. It is almost never a good idea to snow from the first draw. There are just too many ways to improve and win at showdown, making a complete snow unnecessary.

Thx a lot you guys.
I just started playing TD 2-7. Went very deep in my first tourney (SCOOP M).
Just earlier today I had T2222 in the Small ag. a buttonraise. Reraise, drew one, he took 2. I bet and patted. He drew two and folded... Love this game

Hi DD,
great series!
You said that you would isolate a limper w/ 734/735 but you said that you would only steal with these hands from the button. does that mean that you only isolate w/ such a hand OTB or do you think it is worth it isolating with these hands from the co or even mp1?

I'd say button only for those specific weak hands, good question.

Time Link to 00:02:24

Kansas City is 2-7 lowball no-limit, I think. Brunson has a sub-chapter on it in Super/System I.

Time Link to 00:43:39

So heads up we ARE supposed to bet when it goes 2:3?? Is it only wrong to bet a card ahead in 2:3 situations when there's more than 1 player?

Dont bet a 2cd vs a 3cd, or even two 3cds.

See that's what I thought after I was taught properly .

I was confused because it used 2:3 in a "always bet when a card ahead" example.

Wait what? If we draw 2 and villain(s) draw 3 don't bet? If we are a card ahead why would we not bet?

Well it was explained to me as such:

A 3CD has a very good chance of improving, like 80%. So if you don't improve your 2CD, there's only a 20% chance you're ahead in the hand.

Now this is only unimproved; if you improve your hand, you should bet.

The argument is that a 2CD is not far enough ahead to autobet, though I feel this isn't necessarily correct.

Also, Julebag, I don't think it's as high as 80%.

afaik, a 3cd will improve to a 2cd or better 80% of the time. i think ~40% its a 1cd+, but that number could be less.

afaik, a 3cd will improve to a 2cd or better 80% of the time. i think ~40% its a 1cd+, but that number could be less.

Yeah it's probably right now that I think about it.

Edit: Probably about right for the 40% too; originally thought it was much lower but it doesn't sound too far off.

I think it's about 30% for 1cd or better, with 4% for making an 8 or better.

fwiw I'm way more likely to bet a 2cd unimproved against a 3cd if:
1) I have position
2) I'm smooth
3) he's bad

Yeah it's probably right now that I think about it.

Edit: Probably about right for the 40% too; originally thought it was much lower but it doesn't sound too far off.

I think it's about 30% for 1cd or better, with 4% for making an 8 or better.

Yeah, I get 3.95%, 29.60%, 48.41%, 18.04% for making an 8+, 1cd, 2cd, and UI respectively. So 35% of the time the bet goes in bad (and possibly multiple bets), 48% of the time of time they go in ~even and 18% of the time you gain a little with your 2cd vs a 3cd (and you will gain less than you lose in the twice as frequent occurrence). If he's the type that won't peel with a 3cd UI is the big question, but it's going to be mostly bad I think.

fwiw I'm way more likely to bet a 2cd unimproved against a 3cd if:
1) I have position
2) I'm smooth
3) he's bad

Cool, thanks for the info guys.

And DJ, I'm about to dive into Solid State PLO. I think I might have a variance addiction!!

fwiw I'm way more likely to bet a 2cd unimproved against a 3cd if:
1) I have position
2) I'm smooth
3) he's bad

Some things to add:

4) He's straightforward and will rarely check a 1cd or pat.
5) He folds more on flop and turn than others.