Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

nicely done

Time Link to 00:10:54

I don't think the C-bet on the flop is bad. Joe has the upper end of Ace high hands and I think there is value in a bet against worse Aces and draws and weak peels. I would like to limit the field and give us a better chance of taking this hand down. Betting also gives us the choice fairly often to take a free card on the turn. The villians in this hand appear to be more on the passive side, so I wouldn't fear getting raised all that often, and if we do get raised, we can play appropriately the rest of the way. I would prefer to take a free card on the turn if we had a choice.

As played, I would check/fold the turn. If you call this turn it should be with the intention of calling down non draw making rivers.

Time Link to 00:29:06

Yes Nina they are

tbh I would personally almost NEVER fold that turn unless I had a huge read that the guy never check raised the turn without Top Pair+.

There's 2 flush draws out there, he could have hit the 9, he could have picked up a gutter, or he could just have cheese, that's a flop we're often going to barrell on the turn so I can see us getting floated and then raised by a ton of hands we beat by an aggressive player both value hands and bluffs.

Vs this guy sure it sucks a bit due to his lol slowplay tendencies but I can't fold TT here given the fact he's already shown he'll do dumbass things.

That said we're also missing some info due to speeding through the hands.

Edit: Ah, I see you bought it up. "Wierd lines for value probably means wierd lines as bluffs too"

Agree with you guys on one thing though...

LHE Alive And Well. Especailly on DC now

Time Link to 00:40:13

"I would DEFINITELY 3bet JT" when the J9 is debatable. I've heard many similar statements through the years and it's never made much sense to me. In my opinion the hands are basically the same.

I realize that you have to draw a line somewhere but over and over again I hear players say how one hand is a definite play when another (very similar/one rank below) hand is a fold.

This can be the case in situations with AQ and KQ or AJ and AT etc. but the lower you go I don't think it makes much of a difference. It puzzles me when I hear, "I'd defend 75 here but definitely not 74".

Yes Nina they are

tbh I would personally almost NEVER fold that turn unless I had a huge read that the guy never check raised the turn without Top Pair+.

There's 2 flush draws out there, he could have hit the 9, he could have picked up a gutter, or he could just have cheese, that's a flop we're often going to barrell on the turn so I can see us getting floated and then raised by a ton of hands we beat by an aggressive player both value hands and bluffs.

Vs this guy sure it sucks a bit due to his lol slowplay tendencies but I can't fold TT here given the fact he's already shown he'll do dumbass things.

That said we're also missing some info due to speeding through the hands.

Edit: Ah, I see you bought it up. "Wierd lines for value probably means wierd lines as bluffs too"

Agree with you guys on one thing though...

LHE Alive And Well. Especailly on DC now

What I had seen so far is a guy that likes to lolslowplay. Sometimes a guy might play weird, but every time he takes a really strong line, it's for value. I guess that wasn't the case with this guy, but it easily could have been. As far as i can recall, this was the only time he pulled a bluff the whole session, so it's not that far off.

"I would DEFINITELY 3bet JT" when the J9 is debatable. I've heard many similar statements through the years and it's never made much sense to me. In my opinion the hands are basically the same.

I realize that you have to draw a line somewhere but over and over again I hear players say how one hand is a definite play when another (very similar/one rank below) hand is a fold.

This can be the case in situations with AQ and KQ or AJ and AT etc. but the lower you go I don't think it makes much of a difference. It puzzles me when I hear, "I'd defend 75 here but definitely not 74".

All I can say is that they aren't basically the same. 75 flops more straight draws than 74 for example.

What I had seen so far is a guy that likes to lolslowplay. Sometimes a guy might play weird, but every time he takes a really strong line, it's for value. I guess that wasn't the case with this guy, but it easily could have been. As far as i can recall, this was the only time he pulled a bluff the whole session, so it's not that far off.

Yeah agreed on what we know.

FWIW I think if we had 88- here I'd probably be much more behind a fold given known tendencies if that makes any sense. Dunno if it does really given 9's probably aren't a huge part of his x/r'ing range.

Very nice first (full) vid and look forward to seeing more from you.

"I would DEFINITELY 3bet JT" when the J9 is debatable. I've heard many similar statements through the years and it's never made much sense to me. In my opinion the hands are basically the same.

I realize that you have to draw a line somewhere but over and over again I hear players say how one hand is a definite play when another (very similar/one rank below) hand is a fold.

This can be the case in situations with AQ and KQ or AJ and AT etc. but the lower you go I don't think it makes much of a difference. It puzzles me when I hear, "I'd defend 75 here but definitely not 74".

Well if you 3-bet J9, J8 is nearly the same, right? and if you 3-bet J8, J7, is close...

Draw a line.

Well if you 3-bet J9, J8 is nearly the same, right? and if you 3-bet J8, J7, is close...

Draw a line.

I'm tighter than most of you guys and fold JTo and QTo there ~100% of the time so maybe that's why it's hard for me to see the difference between the 9 and T kicker. They both look like unprofitable hands to me.

I don't think the C-bet on the flop is bad. Joe has the upper end of Ace high hands and I think there is value in a bet against worse Aces and draws and weak peels. I would like to limit the field and give us a better chance of taking this hand down. Betting also gives us the choice fairly often to take a free card on the turn. The villians in this hand appear to be more on the passive side, so I wouldn't fear getting raised all that often, and if we do get raised, we can play appropriately the rest of the way. I would prefer to take a free card on the turn if we had a choice.

As played, I would check/fold the turn. If you call this turn it should be with the intention of calling down non draw making rivers.

See I think your advice in the two paragraphs is somewhat contradictory. Basically you want to bet the flop (not saying this is necessarily wrong), and then when you get called by a couple players and the turn comes a not great card - which is going to happen a significant portion of the time! - you want to check/fold. I don't really see how we get all but one, or everyone to fold on this flop, I think the fact that 2 out of 4 opponents folded is pretty good, the turn came a reasonable but not good card for us, and suddenly its like "um we are 3 ways with AQ high on a middle card board, check fold seems pretty decent" and that's totally true! I just think that's pretty much true on the flop as well.

Time Link to 00:44:19

I check call here from the SB hoping to induce bluffs. In a 5 bb pot it's better to induce. Much more inclined if later position opponents bet vs. earlier position ones. If I flopped tptk I would c/r. For two bets back I fold.

The discussion about check-raising over donking out a river improvement was interesting. NW you say that 'checkraising only has to work half the time' for it be as profitable as donking out, but you don't really discuss much the idea of villain betting for value and folding to a check-raise. Perhaps you just feel most players cant bet-fold these spots?

Certainly against me, if that T spades rolled off on the river, I may bet thin but would have no problems releasing 2 pair or sets if check-raised. For that reason I think (vs me) donking out is going to be better, as I may look up the donk with single pair hands that would check back if checked to.

Time Link to 00:43:37

Agree with calling the donk here with Ahi. I see this line a ton at my stakes, mostly 1/2 6max. Limp/call from small blind, donk flop. And it's generally a pretty wide range which includes some air. Not sure why this line is so popular.

Time Link to 00:53:15

Nina I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on why you like 4betting this flop with the 8h7h flush draw + gut shot.

Are you targeting a player who would 3bet a hand like AQ and check the turn for a free show down, trying to get him to fold?

I have heard that when both players are on draws/bluffs/semibluffs, the player who puts in the last raise wins....is it something like that?

I really don't think iso raising a poor player who limps in the CO with J7o on the button can ever be as bad as you seem to think it is. Sure, at that point BB looked laggy, but it was over 8 hands. That's not enough of a reason for me to not isolate here. Sound the drums of war Joe.

The discussion about check-raising over donking out a river improvement was interesting. NW you say that 'checkraising only has to work half the time' for it be as profitable as donking out, but you don't really discuss much the idea of villain betting for value and folding to a check-raise. Perhaps you just feel most players cant bet-fold these spots?

Certainly against me, if that T spades rolled off on the river, I may bet thin but would have no problems releasing 2 pair or sets if check-raised. For that reason I think (vs me) donking out is going to be better, as I may look up the donk with single pair hands that would check back if checked to.

thats pretty much it. I don't think people can b/f. Even if they do, we get the same as if we donked.

Nina I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on why you like 4betting this flop with the 8h7h flush draw + gut shot.

Are you targeting a player who would 3bet a hand like AQ and check the turn for a free show down, trying to get him to fold?

I have heard that when both players are on draws/bluffs/semibluffs, the player who puts in the last raise wins....is it something like that?

because our equity is so good that we only need to get a small number of folds for a 4 bet to be correct. We're putting in 1 more bet, but our equity is going to be a little less than 50%. This mean that we're getting a really good price to bluff by risking a very small percentage of a bet.

I consider it similar to a freeroll. We have 1/2 the pot equity wise, so I might as well try to lock up the other 1/2. Not sure if this makes sense when I type it out, but it does in my head.

If he ever rebluffs with a draw or makes overcard raises it allows us to punish him as well with our draw and induce him to make mistakes.

See I think your advice in the two paragraphs is somewhat contradictory. Basically you want to bet the flop (not saying this is necessarily wrong), and then when you get called by a couple players and the turn comes a not great card - which is going to happen a significant portion of the time! - you want to check/fold. I don't really see how we get all but one, or everyone to fold on this flop, I think the fact that 2 out of 4 opponents folded is pretty good, the turn came a reasonable but not good card for us, and suddenly its like "um we are 3 ways with AQ high on a middle card board, check fold seems pretty decent" and that's totally true! I just think that's pretty much true on the flop as well.

So you are saying since it will be very difficult to get folds on the flop and there are so many bad turn cards for us it is better to just check and take the free card now? If there were one less player would you be more likely to want to bet?

Also, if the player to our left had folded to the flop bet, things would have played out differently. First, he has bad relative position and will be forced to fold a lot of his holdings unless he is a complete fish which he very well may be. Second, if he does fold it is possible more players would have folded not getting the better odds. Third, if the player to the left folded then we may have had a chance to just check the turn and hope to hit on the river or to showdown with the best hand.

Maybe this is too much of a parlay but it was my thinking at the time.

Time Link to 00:37:15

This is frowned upon by "standard TAG" lines, but could we possibly overlimp with 89o in CO in position against Owebama-monkey? Why not?

This is frowned upon by "standard TAG" lines, but could we possibly overlimp with 89o in CO in position against Owebama-monkey? Why not?

I just don't think its profitable multiway. I think the reverse implied odds with the hand are too high.

Time Link to 00:33:37

Even he doesn't know.