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Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by WiltOnTilt (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:27:47

I don't mind checking the turn as long as you are overbet jamming any river when it checks around.

I don't mind checking the turn as long as you are overbet jamming any river when it checks around.

why?

why?

One reason to bet the turn was given that we might miss value from the fish; he isn't folding a 6 on the river if we jam so we don't miss any value there.

pianospike is probably never putting in more chips without a J anyway, and he will call an overbet jam with that anyway (although he will almost always bet it on the turn too). If we bet and pianospike calls or jams, the fish might get muslced out with two-pair; if pianospike bets a J the fish might call and we can trap more dead money with our nuts.

The only time we miss value is when pianospike and the fish have dogshit; that will be balanced by the times that we pick up spaz-value from bluffs by the fish, the fish calls us on the river with twopair or a set, or when a J or 6 comes on the river and he calls us to play the board.

So I counted the value combos WoT could have, in that last hand:
QJ 6
KT 12
Q9 6
J9 9
Q6 6
J6 9
JJ 3
QQ 1
66 3
AQ 8
KK 3
AA 6

for a total of 72 combos!

He is getting around 2:1 on a call though, he needs to be good 30% of the time, so if he can find 22 bluffing combo's or more, he should be alright.
JT 12
AT 16
K9,T9 etc, and eventhough not all play the same way (bet the turn), there seem to be enough bluffs in there.

One reason to bet the turn was given that we might miss value from the fish; he isn't folding a 6 on the river if we jam so we don't miss any value there.

pianospike is probably never putting in more chips without a J anyway, and he will call an overbet jam with that anyway (although he will almost always bet it on the turn too). If we bet and pianospike calls or jams, the fish might get muslced out with two-pair; if pianospike bets a J the fish might call and we can trap more dead money with our nuts.

The only time we miss value is when pianospike and the fish have dogshit; that will be balanced by the times that we pick up spaz-value from bluffs by the fish, the fish calls us on the river with twopair or a set, or when a J or 6 comes on the river and he calls us to play the board.

when the turn checks around, neither villain has a jack but a super small % and I don't think there's any guarantee that 6x calls an overbet.

their combined ranges for checking the turn are very unlikely to call an overbet. that doesn't mean it might not be best depending on how often they call other sizes, but I doubt it's optimal

Wilt - I think the term you were looking for was Devils Advocate.

when the turn checks around, neither villain has a jack but a super small % and I don't think there's any guarantee that 6x calls an overbet.

their combined ranges for checking the turn are very unlikely to call an overbet. that doesn't mean it might not be best depending on how often they call other sizes, but I doubt it's optimal

So if you have a hand like AT and the turn checks around you are overbetting the river (as a bluff) close to 100%, given that they never call this bet size.

So if you have a hand like AT and the turn checks around you are overbetting the river (as a bluff) close to 100%, given that they never call this bet size.

100%

Time Link to 00:29:25

on the T98 7 board, you mention you check the turn because you would do this with the majority of your range. This would include sets, two pairs, and hands like AT, correct? You never mentioned how you continue in the hand with these hands after the PFR bets the turn and the fish folds. Sets are an easy ch/C (shove is not getting called by worse) but do we then ch/F the blank river? What do you do with a hand like 98s/T9s/T8s here? Do you expect UTG to check behind or vbet his QQ+? AT just ch/fold the turn, correct? If he checks behind the turn and the river is blank, what do we do with sets/2pairs/TPTK? ch/F? what about 6x?

on the T98 7 board, you mention you check the turn because you would do this with the majority of your range. This would include sets, two pairs, and hands like AT, correct? You never mentioned how you continue in the hand with these hands after the PFR bets the turn and the fish folds. Sets are an easy ch/C (shove is not getting called by worse) but do we then ch/F the blank river? What do you do with a hand like 98s/T9s/T8s here? Do you expect UTG to check behind or vbet his QQ+? AT just ch/fold the turn, correct? If he checks behind the turn and the river is blank, what do we do with sets/2pairs/TPTK? ch/F? what about 6x?

prob c/c sets, c/f everything else. turn bettor has mostly Jx

prob c/c sets, c/f everything else. turn bettor has mostly Jx

So ch/C turn, ch/F sets on blank river then, correct? And if turn checks around (so fish is still in pot on river) can we ever vbet a blank river with a set or 2 pair?

So ch/C turn, ch/F sets on blank river then, correct? And if turn checks around (so fish is still in pot on river) can we ever vbet a blank river with a set or 2 pair?

yes

maybe small

So ch/C turn, ch/F sets on blank river then, correct? And if turn checks around (so fish is still in pot on river) can we ever vbet a blank river with a set or 2 pair?

Do we really get good enough odds to check/call the turn with a set knowing that villain always has a straight? It also seems hard to get paid if we fill up on the river.
Great video btw. Maybe Aaron can also include some hands where he owns people, not the other way round

Do we really get good enough odds to check/call the turn with a set knowing that villain always has a straight? It also seems hard to get paid if we fill up on the river.
Great video btw. Maybe Aaron can also include some hands where he owns people, not the other way round

obv not c/c every turn bet size

I just have to say I really enjoy this series. It's also great to discover jk3a as a video producer, so I can go back and watch his other material.

Keep up the good work!

obv not c/c every turn bet size

Are we calling this particular betsize if we had a set?
We got about 25% against a Jack and if we call this bet we show an ev of -20 ((214+148 x 0,25) - (148x0,75))

I assume we frontshove all rivers that boat us? but will he call?
Personally i think he will fold a decent % of the time but still calls enough to call this bet....

Are we calling this particular betsize if we had a set?
We got about 25% against a Jack and if we call this bet we show an ev of -20 ((214+148 x 0,25) - (148x0,75))

I assume we frontshove all rivers that boat us? but will he call?
Personally i think he will fold a decent % of the time but still calls enough to call this bet....

good ?

obv depends how much/if he'll call. really tough to say. def some regs who might pay off but others who wouldn't. only needing to make up $20 on river, it's prob ok to call.

I don't understand the last hand. WOT said he's value betting on the turn and bluffing on the river. How does that work when the board doesn't change on the river. If you think you can get called by worse on the turn then you should still have the best hand on the river. Why do you need to bluff the river?

I don't understand the last hand. WOT said he's value betting on the turn and bluffing on the river. How does that work when the board doesn't change on the river. If you think you can get called by worse on the turn then you should still have the best hand on the river. Why do you need to bluff the river?

His assumption is that almost all of villain's range will fold to his bet, so rather than check back and win sometimes and lose sometimes, he turns his hand into a bluff and expects to win the pot almost always.

Time Link to 00:18:03

I don`t get why you think that he would not valueshove on the river a Qx-hands.
Vs. your perceived range it would be imo not a bad valueshove, exspecially b/c he can rep a lot of bluffy with the Ace on the river.

Or do you just think that he would not shove it b/c he think in absolute handstreghts and cannot handread since he is a fish - then it would make sense for me.

But when you think this is not theoretically a good Valueshove on the river in Vilalin`s shoes with Qx-hands, then I need some more explanations b/c I don`t get it then.


btw.,
another great part - how many parts this series actually has?

I don`t get why you think that he would not valueshove on the river a Qx-hands.
Vs. your perceived range it would be imo not a bad valueshove, exspecially b/c he can rep a lot of bluffy with the Ace on the river.

Or do you just think that he would not shove it b/c he think in absolute handstreghts and cannot handread since he is a fish - then it would make sense for me.

But when you think this is not theoretically a good Valueshove on the river in Vilalin`s shoes with Qx-hands, then I need some more explanations b/c I don`t get it then.


btw.,
another great part - how many parts this series actually has?

just because most fish don't hand read/vbet well

8 episodes

just because most fish don't hand read/vbet well

8 episodes

All right, thanks^^

i think you should be betting your entire range on the turn (well, T9+) in the 89T7 hand. you're never getting raised

how does nanonoko open that little from the button?

His assumption is that almost all of villain's range will fold to his bet, so rather than check back and win sometimes and lose sometimes, he turns his hand into a bluff and expects to win the pot almost always.

+1

Listen to the wise Crackmonkey

I just have to say I really enjoy this series. It's also great to discover jk3a as a video producer, so I can go back and watch his other material.

Best kept secret in online poker training vids

Thanks for watching.

+1

Listen to the wise Crackmonkey

so sick, awesome stuff guys

so on that last hand from WOT, you were betting the turn with the intention of bluffing the river? Trying to get the villan to call your turn bet then fold the river was the original intention when betting the turn? Your actual hand doesn't matter at all when you bet the turn other than the 5 outs?

Time Link to 00:21:19

Just a question out of interest:
Why you do not play here with a deep Stack here on the deep-antes-table?
Any special reason for it?
Probably b/c everybody is non-deep, except of one REG?
Would be almost too lazy to change in this case always the
Buy-In-&Rebuy-preferencies...

love these hand history reviews. would love to see more of them or even more hands per video. great job Wilt and Jk3a

jk3a, where can I get that particular HUD display? It's really awesome.

Just a question out of interest:
Why you do not play here with a deep Stack here on the deep-antes-table?
Any special reason for it?
Probably b/c everybody is non-deep, except of one REG?
Would be almost too lazy to change in this case always the
Buy-In-&Rebuy-preferencies...

just habit, no reason. if there's someone i want to cover i'll add chips

jk3a, where can I get that particular HUD display? It's really awesome.

should be a link in here

http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/23-Ghost/1321-Jk3a_6_25_200NL_Part_2

so on that last hand from WOT, you were betting the turn with the intention of bluffing the river? Trying to get the villan to call your turn bet then fold the river was the original intention when betting the turn? Your actual hand doesn't matter at all when you bet the turn other than the 5 outs?

It's a value bet on the turn given that villain can have a large number of pair + draw combos in his range that are behind AJ. When villain check/calls the turn, his range is basically those pair + draws and showdown hands similar to what he shows up with in this particular hand.

I guess from a literal standpoint, WoT can be value-betting the turn with AJ whereas he can't be with 22, but if the line is always to bet turn, then jam certain rivers if called on the turn, his hand doesn't matter unless villain is somehow capable of bluff-catching with a hand weaker than AJ, which may be true given how polarizing WoT's river shoving range appears.

so on that last hand from WOT, you were betting the turn with the intention of bluffing the river? Trying to get the villan to call your turn bet then fold the river was the original intention when betting the turn? Your actual hand doesn't matter at all when you bet the turn other than the 5 outs?

I have the best hand a ton when he checks that particular turn, because that particular turn gives a lot of his semibluffs a pair. I was value betting the turn because I have the best hand and I can get called by worse and I can protect. I was bluffing the river though. It certainly could be the case that betting the turn with 22 with the intention of shipping the river as a bluff is +EV, it's just a scenario where the turn bet is likely -EV and the river bluff could be very +EV. Given that he called with KQ, doesn't appear to necessarily be so, but the overall play with AJ will be higher EV than with 22 because the turn bet has value.

It's a value bet on the turn given that villain can have a large number of pair + draw combos in his range that are behind AJ. When villain check/calls the turn, his range is basically those pair + draws and showdown hands similar to what he shows up with in this particular hand.

I guess from a literal standpoint, WoT can be value-betting the turn with AJ whereas he can't be with 22, but if the line is always to bet turn, then jam certain rivers if called on the turn, his hand doesn't matter unless villain is somehow capable of bluff-catching with a hand weaker than AJ, which may be true given how polarizing WoT's river shoving range appears.

crackmonkey ftw

one last thing on your last sentence though, my river range is definitely not polarized here. TPTK, overpairs, 2pairs, sets and straights all well within my value range here. It's really tough for me to not have a pair here given the board texture and my flop bet/call. In order to not have a pair here I'd have to be floating with a hand like AK, which is certainly possible, but not super likely given the other hands and given that I wouldn't always cbet.

given that he called though, he certainly must have thought I was polarized... or at least that I am turning hands into bluffs often, which was the case.

Hey Guys. Nice video as always.

I have am interested in the line "good reg" took in the last hand. It seems like there is more room in todays games to play tpgk for value with CRs on the flop. Against another thinking opponent what should he do with KQ on a turn brick? If he bets and gets called should he bet again on the river? How about a turn A? How about if he gets 3 bet on the flop?

Thanks and keep up the good work.

pretty sure wilt has advocated cr tpgk in his HU videos.

Time Link to 00:44:02

@homeworkidea:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

108 games 0.005 secs 21,600 games/sec

Board: Jd 6s Qh 9c 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.667% 38.89% 02.78% 42 3.00 { KdQs }
Hand 1: 58.333% 55.56% 02.78% 60 3.00 { JJ+, 66, ATs+, KTs+, Kd9d, Kh9h, Ks9s, QJs, Q9s, J9s, T9s, Td8d, Th8h, Ts8s, AQo-AJo, KTo+, QJo, Q9o, J9o, T9o }

I weighed AT and AK in WoT`s Range down + also have given him only Gutshots which call he flop-C/R when they have a backdorFD.

B/c Villain need only about 31% E, it would be a call regards to this range.

edit: adding in WoT`s Range Q6s/o and J6s/o, Villain has still about 36,5% EQ.

Hey Guys. Nice video as always.

I have am interested in the line "good reg" took in the last hand. It seems like there is more room in todays games to play tpgk for value with CRs on the flop. Against another thinking opponent what should he do with KQ on a turn brick? If he bets and gets called should he bet again on the river? How about a turn A? How about if he gets 3 bet on the flop?

Thanks and keep up the good work.

my std after c/r is to usually bet turn and decide on river. sometimes vbetting, sometimes c/c, sometimes c/f

crackmonkey ftw

one last thing on your last sentence though, my river range is definitely not polarized here. TPTK, overpairs, 2pairs, sets and straights all well within my value range here. It's really tough for me to not have a pair here given the board texture and my flop bet/call. In order to not have a pair here I'd have to be floating with a hand like AK, which is certainly possible, but not super likely given the other hands and given that I wouldn't always cbet.

given that he called though, he certainly must have thought I was polarized... or at least that I am turning hands into bluffs often, which was the case.

Yea I think it would seem polarized to me given that the typical 200NL player is pretty bad at value-betting ( myself included ) and probably wouldn't be shipping less than top 2 pair for value on the river, and almost certainly isn't capable of turning a 2nd pair type hand into a bluff.

Just finally got caught up with the series. Really good discussion between you guys all the way around. I sort of wish you guys disagreed in more spots though, but maybe that's a product of being good friends and always discussing hands all the time. Still makes for excellent material, though.

On to the actual video, a couple comments:

- Did WoT misspeak when he said he would "rarely" c-bet the Q7ss3x flop with air against the fish in the 3bet pot? It's not the best board of all time to continuation bet, but overall it has to be one of the better boards to bet with pure air I would think. Change the 3 to a 6 and I'd agree completely, but this board should miss him a lot.

- Last hand of the video you guys talk about the SB's preflop range and seemed to agree he would usually 3bet with KQ. While in general I agree that's a standard spot to 3bet KQ, I think he at least SHOULD be calling with it a lot to keep the fish in the pot. That's actually an interesting concept that I'd like to see talked about more in general. Obviously it's standard in a lot of spots to call with hands you might normally 3bet to keep a fish in (as well as calling more in general to opens with fish left to act), but at what point do we consider it more profitable to just 3bet for the strength of our hand itself? Assuming an average fish in the blinds that calls a lot of opens but doesn't necessarily cold-call 3bets cold with a huge range, is it particularly sub-optimal to call AQ in the SB to a button open from a good reg compared to 3betting? Does it change much with AK?

It's a topic that gets talked about a fair bit, but it'd be cool if you guys could expand on it a bit more, particularly at the extremes.

I really like this series. Hope you make bunches of videos like this

Just finally got caught up with the series. Really good discussion between you guys all the way around. I sort of wish you guys disagreed in more spots though, but maybe that's a product of being good friends and always discussing hands all the time. Still makes for excellent material, though.

On to the actual video, a couple comments:

- Did WoT misspeak when he said he would "rarely" c-bet the Q7ss3x flop with air against the fish in the 3bet pot? It's not the best board of all time to continuation bet, but overall it has to be one of the better boards to bet with pure air I would think. Change the 3 to a 6 and I'd agree completely, but this board should miss him a lot.

Could you link me to the time stamp? i was having trouble finding it. most likely I misspoke though, seems hard to imagine that I would rarely want to cbet there. Hopefully the rest of the discussion and the other videos would have made that clear.

- Last hand of the video you guys talk about the SB's preflop range and seemed to agree he would usually 3bet with KQ. While in general I agree that's a standard spot to 3bet KQ, I think he at least SHOULD be calling with it a lot to keep the fish in the pot. That's actually an interesting concept that I'd like to see talked about more in general. Obviously it's standard in a lot of spots to call with hands you might normally 3bet to keep a fish in (as well as calling more in general to opens with fish left to act), but at what point do we consider it more profitable to just 3bet for the strength of our hand itself? Assuming an average fish in the blinds that calls a lot of opens but doesn't necessarily cold-call 3bets cold with a huge range, is it particularly sub-optimal to call AQ in the SB to a button open from a good reg compared to 3betting? Does it change much with AK?

It's a topic that gets talked about a fair bit, but it'd be cool if you guys could expand on it a bit more, particularly at the extremes.

I think it's a good/fine adjustment to flat hands as strong as AQ and AK in the scenario of a reg button open, you in the sb, and big fish in the BB. It doesn't mean you have to, and I can't necessarily say for sure it's OPTIMAL to flat those hands instead of 3betting them (it would greatly depend on what sort of 3bet dynamic you have with the button and how much the fish is flatting 3bets)

Playing those hands to keep so many worse hands in for the BB has a lot of value (not just domination factors either), and also should give a lot of deception vs the button. It's especially helpful if you've practiced checkraising 1pair hands for value and you are comfortable playing big pots with 1 pair like that (ideally putting yourself in a scenario where your opponents wouldn't even put a hand like AK in your range, like c/r a K73r where if it goes check, check, reg cbets JJ or similar, you checkraise...if the fish has Kx he's not folding, and if the fish has air and folds, JJ prob isn't folding either, etc.

Like anything, you want to be able to think ahead about how hands will play out, but certainly looking for spots to play more pots with fish is a way underused strategy imo.

Hope that helps, thanks for watching.

WoT

my std after c/r is to usually bet turn and decide on river. sometimes vbetting, sometimes c/c, sometimes c/f

Care to comment on the other scenarios? Wilt?

Here is the ? again

I have am interested in the line "good reg" took in the last hand. It seems like there is more room in todays games to play tpgk for value with CRs on the flop. Against another thinking opponent what should he do with KQ on a turn brick? If he bets and gets called should he bet again on the river? How about a turn A? How about if he gets 3 bet on the flop?

Care to comment on the other scenarios? Wilt?

Here is the ? again

I have am interested in the line "good reg" took in the last hand. It seems like there is more room in todays games to play tpgk for value with CRs on the flop. Against another thinking opponent what should he do with KQ on a turn brick? If he bets and gets called should he bet again on the river? How about a turn A? How about if he gets 3 bet on the flop?

good questions. this sounds like a cop out answer but I'm not really trying to cop out... but i dont really feel you can have a "standard" here vs a readless reg. Let me try to elaborate.

It comes back to what we're trying to accomplish vs the particular player. This type of thing comes up a lot in heads up play. Based on how other hands have played out, we should have an idea of how he's going to react when we want to c/r for thin value. Have we seen HIM bluff c/r dry boards before? Have we seen HIM take lines where he can't represent many strong hands as a bluff? If this is the case, we're hoping to c/r TP in order to rep air as he seems to like to do (and will likely be hyper sensitive to it). We hope this induces him to spazz out in some what, but in which way?

Is he the type of reg to fight fire with fire or do we think he's a little more savvy? Have we seen him float to steal or does he just rebluff re-raise a lot, such as in 4bet/5bet scenarios?

If he's the type to be floaty in other spots, probably we need to consider c/r and check the turn. Our goal with the flop c/r is to get him to float air/gutters.

If he's the type to 4bet/5bet a lot pre in those types of fire vs fire scenarios, perhaps he's more likely to simply re-raise the flop c/r if he suspects you're fos. In that case we're checkraising in order to induce a 3bet.

Have you been really aggro toward him preflop with 3bets? Do you think he's getting tilted toward you? then he might be a good candidate to c/r and bet the turn for value and probably just not fold.

If I have no idea or no inclination, I generally don't c/r TP vs him w/o a plan of how I expect him to react.

As for whether not to bet an A turn, on this particular board I might not as it overreps my hand (but I still might, if I think he's not folding any bluff catcher), on other boards where it's less likely to hit either of you, then I like continuing to go for value (assuming he can read hands).

Hope that helps

good questions. this sounds like a cop out answer but I'm not really trying to cop out... but i dont really feel you can have a "standard" here vs a readless reg. Let me try to elaborate.

It comes back to what we're trying to accomplish vs the particular player. This type of thing comes up a lot in heads up play. Based on how other hands have played out, we should have an idea of how he's going to react when we want to c/r for thin value. Have we seen HIM bluff c/r dry boards before? Have we seen HIM take lines where he can't represent many strong hands as a bluff? If this is the case, we're hoping to c/r TP in order to rep air as he seems to like to do (and will likely be hyper sensitive to it). We hope this induces him to spazz out in some what, but in which way?

Is he the type of reg to fight fire with fire or do we think he's a little more savvy? Have we seen him float to steal or does he just rebluff re-raise a lot, such as in 4bet/5bet scenarios?

If he's the type to be floaty in other spots, probably we need to consider c/r and check the turn. Our goal with the flop c/r is to get him to float air/gutters.

If he's the type to 4bet/5bet a lot pre in those types of fire vs fire scenarios, perhaps he's more likely to simply re-raise the flop c/r if he suspects you're fos. In that case we're checkraising in order to induce a 3bet.

Have you been really aggro toward him preflop with 3bets? Do you think he's getting tilted toward you? then he might be a good candidate to c/r and bet the turn for value and probably just not fold.

If I have no idea or no inclination, I generally don't c/r TP vs him w/o a plan of how I expect him to react.

As for whether not to bet an A turn, on this particular board I might not as it overreps my hand (but I still might, if I think he's not folding any bluff catcher), on other boards where it's less likely to hit either of you, then I like continuing to go for value (assuming he can read hands).

Hope that helps

Thank you that does help. It is not a cop out in any way and I pretty much assumed that the questions were close and that in close spots we have to look to metagame for answers. Makes sense and thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

Time Link to 00:20:12

You guys talk about bluff 4betting if we were UTG and a TAG squeezed here in the SB. If you do 4bet bluff, are you shoving? If not, to what amount would you 4bet/fold? Let's say squeezer made it $60.

You guys talk about bluff 4betting if we were UTG and a TAG squeezed here in the SB. If you do 4bet bluff, are you shoving? If not, to what amount would you 4bet/fold? Let's say squeezer made it $60.

prob like 130ish/fold to a 5bet