Episode Three

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Episode Three

Oink continues moving up the limit hold'em ladder with this new video. Come along as he 2-tables $10/20 against mostly unknowns.

tags: oink piggyback lhe 6max $10/20 live play 2-tabling

This Series: Piggyback

Oink takes you through the limits from $5/10 to $15/30 in this 4-part miniseries.

Previous Video: Episode Two | Next Video: Episode Four

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Comments for Episode Three

rips
Deuce High
63 posts
Joined 01/08

Nice video, but, haha - you made a 5 min deal about what he folded when he in fact called with AK

Posted Sep 16, 2008 11:58pm

forker
Pair of Deuces
201 posts
Joined 05/08

As always a great pleasure watching your videos Oink.

I am trying to evolve my game from being a total nit to being a LAGTAG who runs like god - hopefully on occasion
Unfortunately, I end up overplaying a good amount of my hands against loose-passive opponents, and keep sending myself to valuetown vs. the non-believers.
I also estimate that I am over-analyzing certain situations, or just give fish too much credit when they spazz out against me on many occasions because they are getting tired of my constant raising. I make stupid moves against people who I know are not going to fold J-high etc.

It is a very delicate balance between value, and self-ownage that I find myself in lately, and although I have been winning more often, my variance is currently through the roof. Any suggestions on how to bring those swings down a little bit? Perhaps I should start open limping more in the SB if I happen to have a very loose big blind to my left?
I think this could be one of the areas in which I leak; because I am so loose opening from the SB I have to muck a ton of hands postflop if the BB who calls every one of my preflop raises keeps floating, and plays back at me on every single flop/turn.

I tried varying my game by switching styles. For example, I will play TAG for the first 5 orbits, and then throw in a LAG orbit or two during which I am a total showdown monkey.
How do you proceed if people are constantly cold-calling your raises, and you end up in multi way pots out of position? Just play TAG? Wait for big hand? Limp in with all the other limpers when I have postion on them instead of raising?

I know, very basic questions, but I think that those spots have become increasingly important the more I open up my game. It wasn't really a problem when I used to play TAG because I would only play strong hands which would hold up against worse ranges most of the time.
I think the LAG approach has already increased my EV in common games, but it has also created new leaks, and potentially opened my game up to being heavily exploited by opposition who just doesn't fold to any sort of aggression.
My non-showdown winnings have gone down which probably means I fold too much myself. I thought I had this covered, but now that I added more hands to my repertoire I need to get to showdown more often I in marginal spots I think right?

Again, thank you Oink - love your vids.

~fork

Posted Sep 17, 2008 2:12am

Oink
Deuces Full
553 posts
Joined 06/07

Hey Fork

Some random thoughts on reading your comment.

- Having a loose passive in the BB.

If this is the case you also have at least one other fish at the table (If you table/seat select well). At such a table with 2+ fish you can play a fairly loose style PF because you will end up in a lot of pots with the poor players. So I defineteky think that playing a LAGTAG style is good. However, and here is the point, if you have a very loose guy in the BB who sees practically any river with any two cards you really shouldnt open raise J2s, 84s, 64o, 42s, Q3o etc. Just open complete and valuebet him postflop when you hit and give up when you dont. Playing these hands will be definetely be +EV vs a very poor player. But since you dont get any folding equity by raising and since you arent raising for value it makes absolutely no sense to raise. But do note that such very loose players are rare. At least in my games. Types like 42/2/0.5 players will actually often be folding a fair amount postflop. So you should raise those hands for folding equity. If you find you have problems barreling of too much the problem could also be that you dont know when to give up and when to keep shooting. This is not easy to learn and if you have troubles with this you will get into problems with barreling too much with 7 high. Mind you I dont think the answer to this is to tighten up again but to work on your understanding of board textures and hand reading.

- Swings

These will be higher for LAGTAGs than for TAGs. In absolute measures that is. If you are a good player you will increase your edge by playing LAGTAG so your WR will go up as will your SD. This means high swings but they will more often be heaters than downers. My SD as an example is 21BB/100 but I rarely have +200BB downers. But if you arent good and dont increase your edge by playing LAGTAG then you will be experiencing lower or consatnt WR and higher SD. Obviously this will translate into higher variance of the sort of more downers. Its a tricky business trying to go from TAG to LAGTAG - unfortunately there is no easy fix but to keep working on your game.


- Playing villains who dont fold

You still should play a ot of hands vs these guys. But you should try and do so in position and not OOP. And you should try not and force every pot in your direction. You dont need to win every pot vs these guys to crush them. This does not however mean that playing 74s OTB vs two very poor and loose passive players is -EV. On the contrary, if you know what you are doing it will be +EV. Which again brings me back to the fact that playing this style isnt easy. But again: playing a TAG style wont put you in those tough postflop spots and thus wont make you a better player either.


- Playing PF when you get coldcalled a lot and play OOP

You want to play in position vs these guys. So my adjustments are to tighten OOP. So tighten up the most UTG. A little less in the HJ and not so much in the CO. You can easily play a 30/20 style without raising much more than 15% UTG. At a table with 2 or 3 very loose guys I'd guess you should have a vpip OTB that is almost between 2.5 and 3 times your vpip UTG. The hands I'd try and tighten up with OOP by the way will be off suit hands that plays well HU in position but poorly multiway OOP. So hands like A9o UTG, A7o HJ, KTo HJ, KJo UTG will go to the muck. Again, dont try and force the pots your way. Try and play in position and valuebet when you hit.


Overall its a tough balance as you mention. Playing TAG wont put you in these spots but it wont teach you to play well postflop either. So if you still win money after you loosened up I'd say you should continue. But keep working on that game! Watch videos, read and post at 2p2, and PLAY! play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate, play reevaluate

Posted Sep 17, 2008 9:32am

Oink
Deuces Full
553 posts
Joined 06/07

One more thing

GOing from 22/18 to 35/23 shouldnt be done in one step. It also shouldnt be done if you play in a high rake environment. At 1/2 as an example I wouldnt suggest playing much looser than 30/20. Even playing 27/20 with the rake there will require a nice set of postflop skills.

So be carefull about loosening up too much if you pay a lot of rake and dont do it in one step. Try and go from 22/18 to 25/19. And then to 28/20 and so forth. This will constantly increase the amount of tough spots you put yourself in and you will be ever more comfortable with playing marginal hands in a more smooth manner.

Posted Sep 17, 2008 9:37am

forker
Pair of Deuces
201 posts
Joined 05/08

Hi Oink,
Thank you so much for your detailed response. This is a lot more then I was hoping for.
Your "random thoughts" are very appreciated.
I will carry your suggestions along with me during my future sessions.
I will start by taking your advice and tune down a little bit from my current 35/26/4 style to something more TAGish for now. From there I can start to gradually open up my range again step-by-step until I feel more comfortable playing this loose range post-flop. And I can keep working on my post-flop skills while slowly adding hands to my repertoire.
I tried to make an instant jump from TAG to LAG (because LAG is just so much more fun - I want to open every single hand when it is folded to me heh) and have not been able to adjust my own post-flop game accordingly.
I table select pretty rigorously, and I often find myself together with 3-5 50/3/0.5 opponents who like to play multiway pots, and usually go to showdown w/APOB totally disregarding texture, pre-flop/flop/turn action, or number of opponents

Posted Sep 17, 2008 11:24am

Oink
Deuces Full
553 posts
Joined 06/07

With such good tables I am sure you can crush with a vpip a bit above 30. But there is no need to be raising overly much. Dont worry about over limping 75s, 22, K4s, Q9o OTB or in the CO after 1 limper with some passive guys behind you.

The beautiful thing about playing such players is that they will pay you of light when you have something and let you draw cheap when you are drawing. You will get tons of free cards meaning you can peel flops light and you will get the chance to check behind rivers with 3rd pair or 4th pair because you play your hands in position. You will also get to make free crad plays in position with good draws such as fd's, OESD's, guts+ 1 or 2 oc's etc etc.

Raising a lot of hands OOP vs these guys will be suicide.

Finally. Remember to adjust to the rake. I take it these tables are fairly low stakes. The rake is such a killer. Remember that the EV curve of hands is hyperbolic (Check out the graph in Sklansky's and Miller's SSSH)with very few hands being huge +EV and a lot of hands being either slightly +EV or slightly -EV. The curve is in other words fairly flat around neutral EV for a ton of marginal hands. This implies that if you perturb the game conditions even slightly the set of +EV and -EV hands can change dramatically.

At your tables there are two effects. The huge number of fish shifts the curve upwards while the rake shifts the curve downwards. I am not sure what effect is most important but I wouldnt be surprised if playing with a vpip much above 32 5-6 handed is very suboptimal. (Assuming you play something like 1/2 or 0.5/1).

At your games I'd be very selective UTG and in the HJ. But I'd play a shitload of hands OTB and in the CO. Being in position against loose passive players is by far the most profitable spot in any kind of poker game. In your games you have the opportunity to do this a lot and you should take advantage of that. And the play quality hands OOP. I'd prolly not open more than 66, A7s, ATo, KTs, KQo, QTs, JTs and T9s UTG, but very rarely fold 75s, 96s, Q7s, K3s, A2s, 22 OTB unless its 3-bet before me. (Coldcalling a ton in position is fine in these games despite what you might read at 2p2 - like TAG opens UTG. Two fish coldcalls and you have 74s OTB with a TAg and a fish in the blinds. Easy peasy coldcall because position on fish = $$$$$)

Posted Sep 17, 2008 12:05pm

Oink
Deuces Full
553 posts
Joined 06/07

Or TAG opens HJ. Fish coldcalls and you have 22, 87s, K8s, Q9s OTB. Asumme a TAG and a fish in the blinds. Coldcall because position on fish = $$$$$$$$$$$$

Posted Sep 17, 2008 12:07pm

forker
Pair of Deuces
201 posts
Joined 05/08

I usually play two tables 6-max at stakes .25/.50 and .50/1 - seldom 1/2 (PS, FT and Everest). The games are still very good "down" here, and I think there is plenty of money to be made at these stakes for someone with solid skills. Everest is one of the loosest places, and it can be extremely profitable if you know how to play well in multiway pots against a table of French non-believers. Also the nice thing about Everest is that there is no cap on the river if the pot is HU - valuetown ahoi

My UTG and MP ranges are pretty standard or even tighter (77+ A8s+, ATo+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs+ in UTG and a few more hands from MP as stanard opening range). I play around 40% of my hands in the CO and OTB if it is folded to me.

Your suggestions will not be ignored, and I will try to get myself involved as often as possible in position after bad players open. This I have not been doing much at all, and then I often say to myself something along the line of "why didn't I just call preflop, he is constantly overplaying his hands, and I could have made so much money here - Or oh no, they continue to hand out free cards to everyone in the pot. Why didn't I just cold-call if they are going to let me draw for free, and they don't fight for the pot if they miss?" I was always a bit hesitant to cold-call because it always seemed so "fishy" but hey, who cares what it looks like if we can turn a profit by playing like this right?

2+2 suggestions seem to be very conservative to say the least. They are definitely great overall strategies to start with. But as you said, sometimes we need to think out of the box, and just get involved in hands with the bad players - regardless of how "standard" play might look like. I believe you mentioned this in your last episode, and it was something that got my attention. I hope you are going to elaborate more on this subject in one of your future episodes.

I am so excited right now, I get cold-called a ton by the passive who never fold, and it can be very very frustrating when they keep floating, or simply outflopping me. As of today, I'm going to try to do the same thing to them with my speculative hands, hoping that my position and postflop skills give me the edge I need to turn this into a profit.
I think I was isolating and 3-betting too much overall. What seems to be a good basic strategy doesn't really work as well when people simply don't fold, and both the blinds will come along 100% of the time along with everybody else yet to act.

Sklansky/Miller graph regarding rake implications; I should have this book around here somewhere, but you are definitely right, and the rake is crazy at those stakes. Many hands lose a ton of value because of this which is a shame.
The rake at those limits is also one of the reasons why I stay away from HU games for the most part. It is kind of sad because HU is a lot of fun but what it comes down to in the end is that we both end up broke while the house is cheering.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me in such great detail Oink. And thank you for dealing with my chaotic English
It means a lot to me.

Posted Sep 17, 2008 7:24pm

grantkropf
Set of Deuces
379 posts
Joined 05/08

As far as going from TAG to LAGTAG, I have had some moderate success as Oink says by slowly "tweaking" my game. Every now and then I'll make a play I wouldn't have to see if it works, just because I'm curious. It's a natural progression and you'll get more curious as you get better and try more plays. Just keep watching videos and read the board carefully.

MO - You make money by getting better hands to fold and worse hands to call.

BTW Oink, love your videos.

Posted Sep 23, 2008 10:31pm

Absolution
Deuce High
9 posts
Joined 02/07

Oink, I would just like to say that I have done well at 1/2 with fairly LAG stats (about 32/23 with a WTSD of 40) over a very large sample. So, it is possible to play a LAGTAG style at these stakes. The rake is compensated by more fish for the most part in my experience.

Posted Oct 21, 2008 5:10pm