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Poker Video: Pot-Limit Omaha by DJ Sensei (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:06:06

We actually seem to be doing pretty well against semi-bluffing rundown hands with a J.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: J24
As2sKhJh 68.36% (391,830 wins, 36,640 ties)
KQJT 31.64% (171,530 wins, 36,640 ties)

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: J24
As2sKhJh 68.93% (413,583 wins, 0 ties)
JT98 31.07% (186,417 wins, 0 ties)

Backdoor spades + backdoor wheel and broadway = more equity than expected?

Time Link to 00:26:21

If we check/call flop and check/call a blank turn, and then check the river, doesn't that leave us very vulnerable to a river barrel? It seems like with our line we are representing a weak made hand that doesn't want to play for 3 streets or a busted draw.

Great EP guys! Really liked this style Looking forward to more.

Time Link to 00:13:50

I don't think 2345 on A38r flop can be called a shit (or terrible) draw. It does have about 30-32% equity against a set of Aces, and has 48% vs. AKQJ.

Granted it's not awesome but if you're c-betting 100% of your range on the flop for a small size, 2345 isn't really making a mistake by calling and semi-bluffing should be an option considering he only needs 40% equity to get it in and he will get some folds when you have Kings and rundowns. Thoughts?

Time Link to 00:20:14

Ran some sims for curiosity's sake, thought I'd share.


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
Adtdtsjc 50.24%
4h3h5c6s 49.76%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
Qdtd8sjc 55.49%
4h3h5c6s 44.51%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
Ad6d7c8s 57.01%
4h3h5c6s 42.99%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
Jd6d7c8s 61.52%
4h3h5c6s 38.48%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
JJAB 72.33%
4h3h5c6s 27.67%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
KdKs7hTd 49.63%
4h3h5c6s 50.37%


board: 5d4dJh
Hand Equity
Ad2cTd9h 48.05%
4h3h5c6s 51.95%

Nice vid, guys. Look forward to turn and river play!

Loving this series!

I have always played a little omaha on the side and am at the moment defo in a Omaha phase.

This is all really helpful stuff

I don't think 2345 on A38r flop can be called a shit (or terrible) draw. It does have about 30-32% equity against a set of Aces, and has 48% vs. AKQJ.

Granted it's not awesome but if you're c-betting 100% of your range on the flop for a small size, 2345 isn't really making a mistake by calling and semi-bluffing should be an option considering he only needs 40% equity to get it in and he will get some folds when you have Kings and rundowns. Thoughts?

I think new players grossly overestimate the equity provided by a closed wrap draw (ie 245 on A38 or QJT on AK). It is basically the equivalent of a bare NFD in terms of outs. However as I am sure you are aware, in PLO the bare NFD typically has more than 40% equity because it will itself often have BDSDs, BD two pair, BD trips draws that all provide fractional bits of equity that add up to a few % points and make the hand subtly more strong than a 9 out draw against most peoples ranges. Closed wraps don't tend to benefit from that as much since we are either hitting a straight card or we are not. Having the pair in our hand is nice in that it often provides us with 2 extra trip outs but I was more just talking about the closed wrap itself. I think this is the result of a lack of thinking by players because they seem to think that most/all wraps are 10 out+ draws.

I would say that maybe you, orestto, don't overestimate your equity, but that is because you are good at PLO. A lot of NL converts will. I think I was largely just trying to make the point that it is not as strong a draw as people seem to play it as or seem to think about it. Most experienced PLO players get the concept that we block our own outs there. I probably use language that is too severe to describe the situation, so let me rescind and say that 2345 is a medium strength draw. If we had something like 2456, we really do have a pretty bad draw because now we lose two outs towards trips and our equity vs. other made hands goes down even more.

Anyway to specifically address your question I think that if the one hand we are afraid has okay equity vs. our range here is 245* we don't really need to be too concerned because that will make up a very small part of peoples ranges--players just don't play cards that low particularly often. Also those 245* hands are going to peel regardless of what we cbet but I think the times we have a weaker hand on this board we can assume that the majority of a peeling range contains Axxx type hands and if we have a hand like KKxx I think we are well behind their range for peeling and can safely fold. I think that cbetting small vs. the majority of their range will end up being most profitable. 245* makes up 1.05% of all hands and even then we need to parley the combinatorics with the fact that they need to actually play this hand in the first place. So yeah, if we get peeled the times we have the weaker parts of our range and then moved off our KKxx I think that is fine consider I would say they are going to have an ace in that spot waaaay more often when we don't have one.

Hopefully that made more sense.

Yea I wasn't really disagreeing with the c-betting frequency or sizing, it was just the 'terrible draw' thing, I didn't want viewers to be mislead. I also agree we shouldn't be that worried about someone having 245*.

By the way, on A38, 2345 has more equity than 2456 vs AQKJ type of hands, because as you said, we don't have two pair or trip outs. However, 2456 has a bit more equity than 2345 vs AAKQ on A38, because we have more backdoor straight draws, even though now we don't have a blocker to AA boating up. Not saying you were wrong because I'm not sure which hand you were talking about, this is just interesting info for DC members.

Come on turn and river play!

This episode was money. Thoughtful discussion of two different ways to approach the same hand? Worth this month's membership. No, I take it back. It's a steal of a bargain.

Time Link to 00:43:36

Hi Folks,

I don't play mid stakes, I play low, but if I saw a donk bet on that board from the typical opponents I play, I am frequently folding depending on the SPR. A high percentage of villians aren't ever donking weak so their range is likely to be bottom two pair, 77xx, 99xx or a premium draw. It just seems that at small stakes their range is really polarized. Either air or really stong, leaning toward really strong.

jskintauy

Time Link to 00:33:26

What exactly do you mean when you say that we have "good visibility" here?

What exactly do you mean when you say that we have "good visibility" here?

Visibility basically means that we know which future cards are good and bad, and to what degree. Generally, the nuttier our draw is the more visibility we have, though it also depends on our ability to narrow down our opponent's range.

Thanks.

Time Link to 00:57:44

N00b Question here...but would you only make this flop call if IN Position?

Thanks!

N00b Question here...but would you only make this flop call if IN Position?

Thanks!

Somewhat tough question since I'd never play this hand OOP. Generally speaking I'd have to say I wouldn't check call OOP, but I also hate leading a hand like this because of the RIO of making a third nut flush. I'd probably c/f OOP, like if I got this one for free in the BB or something.

Great episode. Thanks guys.

Somewhat tough question since I'd never play this hand OOP. Generally speaking I'd have to say I wouldn't check call OOP, but I also hate leading a hand like this because of the RIO of making a third nut flush. I'd probably c/f OOP, like if I got this one for free in the BB or something.

I concur.

Time Link to 00:44:31

I know that this episode is mainly about Flop play, but in this JT98ds hand you also talk about Turnplay when he hit a 9 or a K , saying that you would c/c bec. players will barrel their NFD+GS hands and other combos...how do we play a river then? would you c/f to a shove/PSB if you don't have an aggressive dynamic with the other player?

I guess that we would have to c/c the nutstraight on the Turn to be able to balance the range that we get to the river with... and would you advocate c/r vs particular players that seem to barrel too often?


I would appreciate if you could give me an approach on how to handle spots where our range is somehow capped to the 2/3rd nutz and our opponent is smart enough to realize this...

really enjoyed the series and each episode seems to get even more interesting then the previous one!

I know that this episode is mainly about Flop play, but in this JT98ds hand you also talk about Turnplay when he hit a 9 or a K , saying that you would c/c bec. players will barrel their NFD+GS hands and other combos...how do we play a river then? would you c/f to a shove/PSB if you don't have an aggressive dynamic with the other player?

I guess that we would have to c/c the nutstraight on the Turn to be able to balance the range that we get to the river with... and would you advocate c/r vs particular players that seem to barrel too often?


I would appreciate if you could give me an approach on how to handle spots where our range is somehow capped to the 2/3rd nutz and our opponent is smart enough to realize this...

We tried to limit our discussion to flop play in this episode (and the next one) but any discussion of flop play should obviously consider later streets of action because they seriously impact our flop decisions. Especially in a hand like the JT98ds one.

Generally, when we're in a situation where our range is "capped" and we have the top part of it (2nd or 3rd nuts, generally), we have to grit our teeth and call down. It will work out well for us often enough because people fire that last barrel fairly often when we look weak, but there's not much else we can do with our hand but give them the chance to do it. These situations are obviously tougher and more common when out of position.

And yes, I would definitely c/c the nut straight on the turn here for balance sometimes. I'd do that more often on a drier board though (say, 2569r with 87xx) than on a wet one like this. Though if I am to do it on a wet board, I'll do it with hands that have no redraws. If I have redraws I'd prefer to jam it in and hope to freeroll my opponent (though of course I'm happy if he calls with the non-nuts too ).

Great episode - I struggled a little with the first two in the PPP format, but this was bang on the money.

Very well explained with one or two spots specifically which have made me re-think my standard approach to those/similar situations.

... I struggled a little with the first two in the PPP format,

Yeah me too.

Time Link to 01:04:26

I want my shout-out dangit....

Im enjoying the series thus far, do you guys still want us to submit HH's or are you good?

Time Link to 01:01:22

So if we bet out here, get 1 or 2 calls, and then the button raises, are we always going to stick it in? Or are we ever going to flat-call and hope to get a couple more overcalls with our outs being nutty?

So if we bet out here, get 1 or 2 calls, and then the button raises, are we always going to stick it in? Or are we ever going to flat-call and hope to get a couple more overcalls with our outs being nutty?

If we bet and get 1 or 2 calls and there is a raise behind, the raise will commit such a large portion of our stack that everyone will know we have a big hand by calling. We should just go ahead and stick it in. In practice it doesn't make much of a difference.

Honestly I think in a "reverse psychology" sort of way I'd rather jam because it seems like we are less likely to want more people in the pot (when in reality we don't give a crap).

Time Link to 00:43:07

Like you would ever in a million years donk KKxx here Why are you trying to be balanced in a 2-4 game to start with?

Like you would ever in a million years donk KKxx here Why are you trying to be balanced in a 2-4 game to start with?

1) Sure I would, especially against somebody with a low cbet%. Less so in a 3bet pot perhaps, but I think donking flop with superstrong hands is a very viable option in PLO.
2) 2-4 games aren't easy (anymore). And even if they are for you, its good practice to work on balancing your game so that when you move up to the higher stakes where it matters, you are ahead of the curve already.

Really enjoyed this ep. First 2 of the series were good too, but certainly not as fun

Can't wait to maximize my everything! lmao

I love the series so far and I'm watching the videos in order starting from the first one after another. Great stuff, but I had to say something that was nagging on my mind about the JT98ds hand that no one else seemed to mention. My first post on DeucesCracked, trying out the 7 day trial and wanted to post my thoughts.

While I understand the logic for flatting instead of 3-betting pre-flop to keep the fish in on the JT98ds hand, I feel like this is a really bad spot to do that. For one, he might limp-fold and we end up heads up OOP with a high SPR (unlikely he folds after limping, but still a possiblity we have to consider.) Second, even if he does what we want him to and calls, how great really is this for us? Sure he's a big fish, but since we all know how imperative position is to success in PLO, our edge over him is automatically reduced dramatically because he has position on us. Granted, he's a fish so he's not going to use position as well as a good player would to make our decisions tougher, but the advantage is built-in. Factor that with now we're OOP against 2 players if he flats, which you could argue is worse even with the fish included, and this play makes zero sense to me. To me this spot is simple. You have a premium hand, OOP. 3-bet, put more money in, take the initiative, and barrel away post flop since most of the time your hand is going to catch peices that allow barrelling the turn easily and confidently. Or, if the flop comes something like A55 and we hit air, a c-bet takes it down because they assume we have AA and don't want to be drawing dead so it's a win-win. I really feel like this is one of those KISS situations (keep it simple, stupid) and that flatting was really over-thinking the situation. And look at what ended up happening, we were put in a really tough spot post because we flatted. If we simply 3-bet, the SPR is much lower and we hit the flop hard enough to barrel and stack off post. Much easier to deal with. I feel like 3-betting prevents us from getting into a really crappy spot like we did to begin with, which is an overlooked part of poker in general I think. It just seems like we should keep plays like this for when we're in position against fish, especially heads-up to make life easier on ourselves instead of making it more difficult when it never needed to be to begin with.

Thoughts? And thank you so much for this video series!

Could you provide a time stamp?

Time Link to 00:43:46

Sure, here it is

I love the series so far and I'm watching the videos in order starting from the first one after another. Great stuff, but I had to say something that was nagging on my mind about the JT98ds hand that no one else seemed to mention. My first post on DeucesCracked, trying out the 7 day trial and wanted to post my thoughts.

While I understand the logic for flatting instead of 3-betting pre-flop to keep the fish in on the JT98ds hand, I feel like this is a really bad spot to do that. For one, he might limp-fold and we end up heads up OOP with a high SPR (unlikely he folds after limping, but still a possiblity we have to consider.) Second, even if he does what we want him to and calls, how great really is this for us? Sure he's a big fish, but since we all know how imperative position is to success in PLO, our edge over him is automatically reduced dramatically because he has position on us. Granted, he's a fish so he's not going to use position as well as a good player would to make our decisions tougher, but the advantage is built-in. Factor that with now we're OOP against 2 players if he flats, which you could argue is worse even with the fish included, and this play makes zero sense to me. To me this spot is simple. You have a premium hand, OOP. 3-bet, put more money in, take the initiative, and barrel away post flop since most of the time your hand is going to catch peices that allow barrelling the turn easily and confidently. Or, if the flop comes something like A55 and we hit air, a c-bet takes it down because they assume we have AA and don't want to be drawing dead so it's a win-win. I really feel like this is one of those KISS situations (keep it simple, stupid) and that flatting was really over-thinking the situation. And look at what ended up happening, we were put in a really tough spot post because we flatted. If we simply 3-bet, the SPR is much lower and we hit the flop hard enough to barrel and stack off post. Much easier to deal with. I feel like 3-betting prevents us from getting into a really crappy spot like we did to begin with, which is an overlooked part of poker in general I think. It just seems like we should keep plays like this for when we're in position against fish, especially heads-up to make life easier on ourselves instead of making it more difficult when it never needed to be to begin with.

Thoughts? And thank you so much for this video series!

If I were playing the same hand today, I would probably boost it for several of the reasons you mentioned, not least of which is the actual vs. perceived value of having an extra fish in the pot. (Actual < perceived most of the time because equities run closer, he has position, multiway pot means more straightforward play, etc.). Also, I'm surprised by how often that kind of player will just coldcall the 3bet anyhow, which we can't complain about.

That being said, I do think much of the original reasoning holds true, and it is important to be mindful of the weaker players still in the pot. Most of the value in any given game comes from the weakest player(s), so you'll generally be wise to include them. In this case we benefit too much from 3betting to prefer flatting, but often that won't be the case. Thanks for the post!