Poker Video: Misc/Other by DeathDonkey (Micro/Small Stakes)

Just a little tip: you can check the last hand with the little red round symbol next to the "previous hand" link and see the hand graphically.

wtf is this shit? Tripple draw? lol americans

40 minutes in, we drew two on the first draw and made a 109852. After the betting the two villains drew 2 and 3 and we stood pat. If we don't stand pat, are we drawing 1 to a 9 or 2 to an 8?

Personally I love this series, been sick and tired of NL holdem for years and have been
playing mixed games/tourneys quite a lot lately where I'm obv a triple draw donk. DJ&DD is also a very solid duo to make videos in general, thumbs up.
I'm really interested to see the videos where you reach some higher limits, when I play good tripledraw players I feel completely owned by their aggression and ability to snow in the right spots so it's gonna be fun to see/hear DD discuss that.

87 hand at eleven minutes in, I feel a check call would be a better option here, since OP has been the aggressor the whole hand. Your hand has plenty of showdown value here, and a check call gives you a ton more information/chance at winning the hand at least.

87 hand at eleven minutes in, I feel a check call would be a better option here, since OP has been the aggressor the whole hand. Your hand has plenty of showdown value here, and a check call gives you a ton more information/chance at winning the hand at least.

You missed the whole point of what DeathDonkey was getting at:

(1) Your opponent will only raise with a hand that beats an 87.
(2) When checked to, your opponent will bet all better hands and only a few worse hands (maybe 96s and better).
(3) When you bet, your opponent will call with his whole range.

Given these assumptions, bet/folding is the best play. So if you think check/calling is better, you need to explain which of these assumptions you think are wrong.

Hey DD/DJ, I noticed that you didn't have time complete the discussion on a few hands. Maybe you should consider doing other videos with pausing.

what is the winrate a good player can expect ?

jajvirta: I'm just so used to looking at the text hand histories when playing triple draw (annoying when multi-tabling but I'm too lazy to write any sort of script to do it for me) the graphical new one just confuses me / slows me down.

asdirane: if we didn't stand pat I would check behind them and draw 2.

classik: as sweetjazz said, I strongly disagree with check/call, and I tried to give my reasoning in the video, let me know which assumptions you disagree with though.

Jigsaws: I will definitely consider it, I know what you mean, but I also think part of that was just working with DJ while doing a playing video for the first time, I think we'll get a little less scatterbrained as we get used to working together while playing. I also think its incredibly easy to be results oriented in triple draw and fear that doing audio afterwards could lead to some incorrect conclusions that stem from bias by the results.

Paracelse: I have no idea since there is no PT for it, but I in general dislike worrying about such things as "winrate" anyway. I would say your edge in triple draw over bad players is greater than in hold'em, but your edge over competent-but-not-great players is a little smaller. What I mean by that is if a guy is good enough to not miss bets when he is a card ahead, not draw at incredibly ridiculous hands, and otherwise play straightforward, you don't have a huge edge over him (though certainly you can do better), but the fish that join from time to time, draw 3 and 4 cards often, raise when they are a card behind, or miss bets when a card ahead, and make overall bad decisions, you have a much larger edge than in hold'em. The reason is that despite the fact there are still 4 betting rounds, there are actually EIGHT decision rounds in triple draw, because you have to decide whether to bet or call etc. but also how many cards to draw. Decent players don't screw the card drawing decisions up that badly but huge fish make huge mistakes there.

-DeathDonkey

jajvirta: I'm just so used to looking at the text hand histories when playing triple draw (annoying when multi-tabling but I'm too lazy to write any sort of script to do it for me) the graphical new one just confuses me / slows me down.

Yeah. For what it's worth, I'm writing myself a HUD-like application for showing mucked cards on a triple draw table (and why not other exotic tables too). If I manage to get it into a decent shape (specifically so that it's easy install), I'm more than happy to share it anyone wanting to use it.

Hi DD,

I wrote that when I was about half-way through. I noticed you and DJ seemed to be getting into a better rhythm with less jumping around as the video went along. I agree with you with regards to being results oriented. Having the confidence to make a bet-fold with 87432 is easy when you're reviewing, but it's good to teach the discipline of actually doing it. One of my weak points, unfortunately.

Oh and another point. Donkey forgot to mention that WINNING THE BLINDS IS A GOOD RESULT when DJ sighed getting no action with decent draws. Those no-limit machos are always just hoping to get someone stacked and forget that POKER IS A BATTLE FOR THE BLINDS. ;-)

Also, the name of the site finally lives up to its name!

Great video, going to love this series. One question:

In minute 41, you have T9852, one draw left, and you decide to draw one when your opponents draw 1, because we are are dog to two people drawing one.

Ok i see we are a dog, but I think that's flawed thinking, because if we are drawing one to a rough hand like 9852 we may be even bigger dogs than standing pat.

Hi Raist,

Well after using twodimes for a bit you are absolutely correct, this was a bad break. The problem, as you correctly mention is our 98 draw is well behind their drawing hands so I took us from a small dog to a larger dog (in fact against two wheel draws we go from 31% equity to 18% by breaking the ten - obviously extreme but wow). What this tells me is 1) even single tabling I screw up things during live play, 2) rough draws suck a lot, 3) try not to get into a situation where your two decisions both involve taking the worst of it to different degrees!

-DeathDonkey

Hi Raist,

Well after using twodimes for a bit you are absolutely correct, this was a bad break. The problem, as you correctly mention is our 98 draw is well behind their drawing hands so I took us from a small dog to a larger dog (in fact against two wheel draws we go from 31% equity to 18% by breaking the ten - obviously extreme but wow). What this tells me is 1) even single tabling I screw up things during live play, 2) rough draws suck a lot, 3) try not to get into a situation where your two decisions both involve taking the worst of it to different degrees!

-DeathDonkey

This is the exact hand I was coming to the forums to comment on, but I see you've already addressed it.

The other problem with breaking here is that we've taken such a strong line that by standing pat that by patting again, we won't have to put another bet in, as they "can't" bet into us with a worse hand. By breaking, we open the window to "having to" call with a bluff catching hand.

1)

min 1:20 he knows that we are drawing one or better so he has to be pat or not? with what type of 1 card draws would it make sense for him to be raising here? we only have legit pat hand at this point which we wouldn't break and there is not enough value to raise a hand like 7542 vs another 1 cd draw or pat hands.
my question is basically why we cannot just fold our hand to this raise vs an unknown. as soon as people know we fold in these spots folding is obv. incorrect.

2) min 8 vs someone who opens 3 card draws from the sb you would 3bet all your 2 card draws on the bb? what is the worst hand you would play then? 743/753? do you muck 763? is 783 better than 743 and 753?
what 3 card draws do you defend versus an small blind open? 73+ or 83+?

3) min 10: you attack with 74 the bb. you only do that vs tight players? how do you define tight? what type of hands would be the bottom of his calling range to justify this openraise?
you hit 4789Q and suggest to call two again. aren't we better off keeping the 9 and drawing one because and 87 is not that much better than an 987? or is that just wrong? a) what if it was the last draw? is the correct strategy now to draw to the 9874? b) what if we had 9875 and there are 2 draws left, would you stil discard the 9 or is it closer now? why?

would you steal vs a tight player w/ 75? or is it much worse than 74?
what about 875? is 875 greater than 74? by how much? I have a hard time defining the hand strength of these mediocre hands. (what about 84-87?)

4)min 18: in the first episode you said that you open 2W. in this video you say you'd have opened 26 OTB. why and would you open 82 or even worse hands? is 82 worse than 62 or about the same?

5) min 20: bet folding an 86 vs a pat hand applies only to lower stakes and some rare players on higher stakes? If I do this too often I feel paranoid every time I do it and at some point at start bet calling in these spots just because I think I have been folding too often. How do you handle this? not folding too often etc...

6) min 24: vs what position do you defend a hand like 754? would you fold 854? what if you knew the pot was going to be HU? would you now be more likely to discard the 7 in 8754?

7)min 31: isn't he always pat here? drawing to a 9 seems way too lose... even hu. ( or is betting a 1 card draw correct when one draws 2 and the other 1?)

8) min33: even OTB it is an easy fold right? would you limp 2W in that position? what if someone limps utg and you have 2w in mp1? fold or call?

9) min 35: the bu limps and you isolate with a 1 card draw. would you isolate with 2 card draws here too or do you not mind letting the bb see a flop? what is the worst 2 card draw you would be raising here?
what if you are in the bb and the bu and sb limp. do you valueraise your 2 card draws? what if the bu limps and the sb folds?

10) min40: as played breaking the T9 seems to be a mistake.
2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 1 draw:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: 2 7 6 5 --: EV 32.8% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 32.8/67.2/0.0
Hand 1: 8 5 4 2 --: EV 31.2% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 31.2/68.8/0.0
Hand 2: 2 5 8 T 9: EV 36.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 36.0/64.0/0.0


2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 1 draw:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: 2 7 6 5 --: EV 42.2% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 42.2/57.8/0.0
Hand 1: 8 5 4 2 --: EV 39.2% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 39.0/60.5/0.5
Hand 2: 2 5 8 -- --: EV 18.6% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 18.3/81.1/0.5

when we discard just the T we have 25 % EQ.

edit: just read the other posts, you already figured it out.


11) min 41: is 8643 the weakest 1 cd you openraise from UTG?

12) min 46: vbetting a 9 here 4way seems the best play... you make fun about people not vbtting tens 3way so why not vbetting a 9 4way? also 4way a lot of cards are blocked, so I think it is an easy vbet if villains are capable of herocalling.

13) min 50: breaking the 8 once even vs a 2 card draw seems the way to go.

14) min 52: even with such a smooth draw you would snow? do you think it is the best play in general? (% wise it shows more of a profit than drawing?)

15) min 55) we have about 33-34 % EQ vs their ranges... very close bet on the end. + we do make some incorrect folds when villain raises... is betting stil the best play because the third guy could potentially folding and not getting a free card? and if we get the pot hu we are close to 46/54.
on the other hand, isn't in this scenario the other 1 card draw very likely to bet himself once we check? so we don't need to worry too much about letting the other guy taking a free card.

Hi DD,
could you reply to some of my questions please? Just the ones you don't mind giving info about.

1) I think this represents a change in the "standard" play since this video was recorded. Most people now that play well are pat here. No way we can fold an 8752 here vs a 2 to pat range, he would have to be extremely nitty to not think he has plenty of unbreakable 9s and rough 8s here still.

2) I'd play all of those and more, no 873 is worse than 743 or 753, starting with 87 is always unpleasant. I defend any 2 cards 8 or lower from BB vs a typical SB open.

3) Tight players don't snow, don't chase with weak hands when you are claiming to be drawing less than them or pat, and basically just try to make 'good' hands. In small pots OOP I'll abuse that. You are right, keeping 9874 strikes me as better now. I'd steal 75 as well, its similar to 74. 875 is maybe slightly better, not much, but its worth more vs a tight player because you look stronger drawing 2 instead of 3.

4) 82 is worse than 62 I think by a little, they are similar and both a little worse than 2W. I open all of them a lot from button. my button.

5) I think most people just don't value raise very many hands, so you are usually screwed with worse 86's. At higher stakes I am just concerned about being exploitable and won't fold hands of a certain absolute strength very easily. Yes, it always causes some paranoia but I guess I just have confidence after so much playing that people don't turn hands into bluff raises or value raise super thinly. Rare bad maniacs are exceptions of course.

6) I would never play 854 over 754 if my hand was 8754, I think that's just bad. Both are straight draws but one can still lucksack the nuts. I defend those vs late position raises and I guess vs some guys who raise in EP that I think play poorly postdraw.

7) A good player is nearly always pat there, that said there are a lot of not good players. I was just giving the two options, I think folding is best.

8) yes I would limp 2W, and I think otb 34 is close to playable there. You want to get in hands with fish and button button button. I overlimp 2W a lot.

9) Yes I'd isolate 2 card draws a lot just to get the value. Probably like 358 I guess? Yes I value raise all my solid draws there.

10) yep you are right

11) I think in retrospect that's even too weak. I'd open 2568.

12) Eh I've come around somewhat on this, I think his play with a ten is fine. I'd bet most 9s though in his spot. Yes, I think in the subsequent hand bet/folding the 9 is right, as we did in the video. I agree with you betting is fine there.

13) Just watched it again, no I think what I said in the video is right. That guy drew rough and bad a lot, he will draw dead to 87632 sometimes, and we are not a favorite to improve, its like a flip normally but with the read I think keeping it is best.

14) Agree with you, I snow less than I used to I think.

15) He might, 2 years ago at these small stakes you couldn't count on that bet from many people unless they improved, so the right play was to bet and charge the 3rd player. Now I somewhat agree with you but you have to know what the middle guy is likely to do.

Hi DD,
could you reply to some of my questions please? Just the ones you don't mind giving info about.

I don't mind giving any info, it was just a lot of questions / a lot of time for me to go through them all. In future using the timestamp links to the points in the video would be helpful so I can click them to see what you mean rather than have to flip around in the video for the spot.

Thank you very much for your answers! I'll use the timestamp next time.

Could you clarify your answer for question number 14?

1)

14) Agree with you, I snow less than I used to I think.

I meant I should not snow because the draw is so clean, as you suggested in your comment.

1) I think this represents a change in the "standard" play since this video was recorded.

In general, what other things have changed in Triple Draw since this series was made? I realize it's a vague question.

In general, what other things have changed in Triple Draw since this series was made? I realize it's a vague question.

You get to draw THREE times now. Back in Joe Tall's days, you only drew twice.

You get to draw THREE times now. Back in Joe Tall's days, you only drew twice.

I didn't know cards were so old!

Hi Folks..New too the site..great vid's..but was jst wounderin wht POKER HUD u usin too show the muckd cards on the table..any HELP Most APPRICATED Team..Keep up the great work !!!

Time Link to 00:55:09

If we are continuing to bet with our 1cds here, shouldn't Charlie Ivey be raising a little wider with pat hands and maybe even some 1cds than you are giving him credit for?

If we are continuing to bet with our 1cds here, shouldn't Charlie Ivey be raising a little wider with pat hands and maybe even some 1cds than you are giving him credit for?

im going to disagree with DD here completely. we shouldnt really bet out UI here. even if the 2nd 1cd wont bet UI i feel like its a bit of a mistake as we lose more value the times 1 of them is pat than we gain by charging the 2cd.
after we bet, i feel like charlie can raise pretty wide. he wants position, and a raise can get us to break or fold. he will probably raise any 97+, and some people will raise T's here. also, if he thinks we are betting UI, he can raise UI also to knock the 2cd out. obviously charlie didnt play long enough here for us to have a read on how he'll play in this kind of spot, so b/f'ing may be wrong. we are getting 7.5:1 at this point after all.

im sure DD will pop in and correct me if im wrong tho

Nah that sounds good HJD, I have changed my thoughts on spots like this since the videos were made. I think I have just got better / the regulars play a bit different than they did 2 years ago.

Fair enough, thanks guys.

Time Link to 00:57:22

DD, so being new to TD for the most part i love this series so far but im very lost to how to determine if we could ever bluff raise when catching the second 2 here. I think its pretty clear he has a med strength hand like a good 8, but bc our line would look so strong and in a vacuum he should be beat there, so wouldnt we think in not super strong games we should be making a play there some of the time

DD, so being new to TD for the most part i love this series so far but im very lost to how to determine if we could ever bluff raise when catching the second 2 here. I think its pretty clear he has a med strength hand like a good 8, but bc our line would look so strong and in a vacuum he should be beat there, so wouldnt we think in not super strong games we should be making a play there some of the time

I mean, no? People play bad, and one of the reasons they play bad is they don't fold as much as they "should". By bluffing in a spot where we have no need to balance against 'not super strong' players we make their mistakes less bad. Not to mention the fact that river bluff raises are incredibly rare anyway even against experts (because you are laying them such a good price and because his range is basically strong there). Compared to all the normal spots you / anyone can work on and improve on, finding more spots to bluff raise the river is just not worth much thought at all.

ok thanks, really enjoying this series starting to hopefully get the hang of TD and its a blast. Any vids that focus on tourny TD?

Nope, like I tell everyone that asks about tourney specific things for limit games, its super rare that you should deviate from your normal play

ok cool, was thinking so but it just becomes a little harder for me very short. Its a blast to fit them in when the TD cash games arent really running too often for me