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Poker Video: Misc/Other by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

YES! I'd like to see Razz and Omaha8

I could have played better in thsi video and also made a better video. I need some comments as I am experimenting with this series model. I "free scripted" this one and it's obvious that I have made much better videos. So bring it to me boys, this your series and your website after all, I just happen to work here.

Here is that Hold'em hand were I timed out:

Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is UTG with 3 3
Hero raises, dragonbet420 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (7.5 SB) 3 9 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, dragonbet420 bets, Hero raises, dragonbet420 calls

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, dragonbet420 calls

River: (7.75 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets, dragonbet420 raises, Hero Times Out.


I thought about leaving it out of the video. But then I thought, that would be really lame. Time outs happen, mistakes happen, and I feel the river decision 3-bet bet or call was worthy of discussion.

A little more coverage of O8 would be nice. Horse videos are good as well because people do play some games kinda weird and bad (differently than they would in like a straight hold em game) and it's good to see some analysis.

I think a 2 tabling live play video might be a little bit more interesting because it seems like there's so much folding in the stud games that you don't get into that many spots 1 tabling.

I think a 2 tabling live play video might be a little bit more interesting because it seems like there's so much folding in the stud games that you don't get into that many spots 1 tabling.

+1

1) Stud H/L (O8)...please discuss in a 3 or 4 way pot, when to keep the player being chopped up in,
vs when to knock players out.

2) What is wrong with my thinking here? I think the stud games are more mechanical in their play vs flop games, because the "air" factor is greatly reduced because hand values are easier to ascertain by board reading. Because of this, the possible fancy plays or plays not obvious which give a good player his edge over the bad player are small. Reads have less value.
The expert flop game player has a bigger edge over "the average" player, than in a stud game?
as, the no limit player has a much bigger edge than the limit(in any game), as he can bet more when ahead etc.
or...there is less "it depends" in stud games..
or...a stud bot is way easier to build than a flop bot.

3)How to learn a poker game, how to teach a poker game.(or any game)
kinda going back to #2 also..."I play stud 8 better(any game here) than you because I....."
filling in the blank here is the key.
I beat my opponent in any game because I understand something about the game he does not.
or it becomes a game of luck as we both understand everything...
if two players understand the game fully, and both impliment metagame correctly, there is no point in them playing PERIOD.

while I enjoy watching good/great players play in vids. This does little to help me learn.
The less I know about the game, the less I understand what the expert player is doing and it could become counterproductive, I might misunderstand/misapply. EX: first time I watched DD playing LHE, it was like he was speaking a different language. And in reality HE WAS...cause I did not understand the tools he was using enough to be able to listen in a meaningful way. It took one year to catch up. I understand DD now. maybe this time can be shortened for the next guy.
playing...IS THE END RESULT or more precisely a snapshot of where that players game is now..it shows how well the player can use the tools to play any game at this point on the learning curve.(and even DD is still on that learning curve)
the teaching/learning should focus on the tools, not on the end result/playing.

Mr Tall, I am not directing this only at you, but all of DC.(although I dont really know what goes on on the NL side)

I will be told, this is not a beginners site,
or..perhaps you should get a private teacher.

I love all you guys, but with all due respect, thats BS.

Mr Tall, why am I bringing all this up?
I think you can teach the stud games and all horse games using an approach that will not only be beneficial to the students at present, but for all time...lol.
Teach the "it depends".
one tool at a time.

Ask DD, how many tools total to teach all there is to know about limit hold em.
200? 300? 9?...there should be that many limit tool vids!(perhaps too time consuming, but how many vids we up to now? it only needs to be done once)

I am asking you Mr Tall, how many tools do I have to learn to play Stud 8?
please teach me those.

TY.

bet on the guy/team/player with the best fundamentals...this works.

if its about..not giving the store away...I understand....never mind.

your gasp when you timed out was priceless. Good thing that didn't happen at 30/60. I hate timing out in big hands.

~38min in the video when you have A5472 vs AQ9 and QKK in stud8.

you have monster hand, an (almost) lock for low and high potential. is trying to keep the AQ9 in the pot by calling a viable option here? we gain some equity (depending on his starting hand between 3% and 5% i'd say after some quick calcs) when he folds, but we are giving up on possible jamming opportunities that could come up when both of them make hands on 6th and 7th.

as for the series format: i do not like play-videos of horse. because of the constant change of the game played it is sometimes hard to adjust fast enough and it always feels like many plays/mechanics are not discussed with the depth they should be. i learn more from videos that picks one topic (like when to valuebet light on 7th in S8 or whatever) and shows some hands with various twists as examples to explain the concept in detail. or from a format like "late night coaching" when trouble hands are discussed and viewed from different angels.

~38min in the video when you have A5472 vs AQ9 and QKK in stud8.

you have monster hand, an (almost) lock for low and high potential. is trying to keep the AQ9 in the pot by calling a viable option here? we gain some equity (depending on his starting hand between 3% and 5% i'd say after some quick calcs) when he folds, but we are giving up on possible jamming opportunities that could come up when both of them make hands on 6th and 7th.

Lets look back at the hand:

The As opens, the Qd calls and I jam out of the bring w/A54-s, now the ACE JUST CALLS. No pair of Aces just calls here/very rarely, which leaves his range to likely Ace-Razz hands, spade flush, or some Pocket Pair.

I hit the monster low draw, they check check, I bet, call call, now the Ace picks up the Qs so he has 2 spades, and the other hand is QdKd, with a wayyyy dead diamond draw. On 5th the QdKdKh bets, and the AsQs hits brick-city 9. So now the Razz hands fold, the Spade draws call, and set of 9s jams, so jam 2-bets in his face and look to push more chips in. Follow my caffeinated ramble?

You are right about the format on this, as the above was my exact thoughts and everything is happening too fast for me to articulate it.

Thanks for the replies so far guys,
JT

2) What is wrong with my thinking here? I think the stud games are more mechanical in their play vs flop games, because the "air" factor is greatly reduced because hand values are easier to ascertain by board reading. Because of this, the possible fancy plays or plays not obvious which give a good player his edge over the bad player are small. Reads have less value.
The expert flop game player has a bigger edge over "the average" player, than in a stud game?
as, the no limit player has a much bigger edge than the limit(in any game), as he can bet more when ahead etc.
or...there is less "it depends" in stud games..
or...a stud bot is way easier to build than a flop bot.

You have it totally backwards. Look at the major structural difference between Stud games and Flop games:
1. Flop games share the board/Stud Games you get your own cards.
2. Flop games have two cards down/Stud Games you end up with three.
3. Flop games have 4 betting streets/Stud Games you have 5 betting rounds (Stud-Hi you can have 4-big bet streets when the board is paired on 4th).

Now I want you to tell me why Stud games are more complicated and an expert stud player has a big advantage over a average/novice player. Now I also want you to tell me what simple skill a stud player can posses to increase his advantage.

the teaching/learning should focus on the tools, not on the end result/playing.

This is exactly how I wrote Donk to Stud.

if its about..not giving the store away...I understand....never mind.

Never. I have no problems with it. The more I 'give away' the more feed back I get, the better I get. Dont take this the wrong way but, I challenge you to work on your mix-games as much as I have, I want you to learn what I know, I take pride in that, I get frustrated that my students get frustrated, it keeps me working harder.

hi loved the video as always. (timeout super funny!)

As for the format, im interested in all games except limit holdem (there are lots of other videos for learning limit holdem). And i like both live play and interesting hands using the replayer, both are fine for me. But well, i would prefer higher stakes, at least 10/20 but 30/60 would be even better.

thanks!

Mr Tall,
Ty for your reply.

I am guessing board reading/hand reading as our best chance to gain advantage in stud.
But you will have to convince/teach me stud is more complicated than flop, play wise.
I still think the less bluffing factor makes the stud games more mechanical.

Donk to stud is excellent, I have watched it, will revisit it.
I am just trying to be helpful, I am either unclear, have a bad idea or just dont understand,
I have mentioned this before in a different forum, I will drop it.

I will never play as well as you Mr Tall or any of the other admins here.
But I do work hard on my game.
I am looking forward to learning the stud games and horse,
I think these games are just starting to get more attention,
meaning, if you know how to play them, +EV.

Time Link to 00:41:20

You mention earlier in the video about some of the players playing very straightforward. Noticed this hand with just a pair of Ks and the previous hand where the player called on 3rd street with just KQ3 even when the betting was capped. Seems like you were surprised at their holdings. I haven't played a lot of split pot games, and certainly more PLO8 than Stud8, but I frequently find myself thinking "How could you call with that?" (especially after they go runner-runner-runner to beat me). Do you find a lot more 'surprising' hands in the split-pot games, meaning hands with danglers and hands that have almost no potential to Scoop?