Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by RapidEvolution (Micro/Small Stakes)

Time Link to 00:42:26

One leak I've experienced when 3betting SC'ers from OOP is overvaluing 1 pair hands; even if it's top pair. On a board like 952 with 98s or 742tt with 78s (no fD) are we bet/folding? Is ther eany reason NOT to bet a flop like Q72 with 78 (due to our SD value) when OOP in a 3bet pot? My concern would be the only hands that will let us get to SD would be 88-JJ, so we mine as well bet and possibly barrel some turns (turn our pair into a bluff) rather than check and give up. Any advice on the situation where you spike a single medium strength pair OOP after 3betting? (obv villain dependent, but lets say vs a common TAG).

Also:
I assume to make 3betting SC'ers OOP profitable, we are typically playing aggressively on the flop with a strong draw (FD/OESD on rainbow boards) in this situation. but what about situations where we hit an OESD on a tt or mono board (no BDFD) or a FD on a multi-BW board (KJ4tt with 65s with FD)? Basically, can you think of a situation where we are better off ch/C a draw in a 3bet pot OOP with a SC?
Barreling the turn is situation dependent, and perhaps you'll get to this later.

Time Link to 01:03:44

Could you explain using board texture to set up a 3 BARREL bluff wherein it would be theoretically "incorrect" to fire only 2 barrels? Typically, we are firing the 2nd barrel when the turn card improves our range and "scares" villain's range, and not firing when the card hits his and/or misses ours. However, I know there exists an exception to this rule where we CAN 2 barrel these "bad" cards as long as we fire a 3rd barrel on certain rivers. I can't seem to wrap my head around when this is appropriate, however. The best I can come up with is targeting draws and medium pairs on a board like 976r or J95tt when the turn is a blank. It makes no sense to fire a second barrel on the blank if our villain tends to call 2x with draws/combo draws or single pairs, but if we fire 3 barrels on the right cards, he can't take the heat with his one pair (or Ah/Kh) hand.

Is this right, or am I missing something? It seems this would be a 4th reason to bet (to set up dead money on the river) just as we cbet the flop to pick up dead money on the turn vs players who peel flop cbets too wide.

8:23
What about the fact that if you raise 3xBB preflop and you get one caller your SPR is about 13 on the flop if you both are 100bb deep. Does this mean you should be opening for more or less then 3xBB preflop?

Happy B-Day! : )

Are you going to cover when to bet the river with a missed draw? How about getting thin value as well?

One leak I've experienced when 3betting SC'ers from OOP is overvaluing 1 pair hands; even if it's top pair. On a board like 952 with 98s or 742tt with 78s (no fD) are we bet/folding? Is ther eany reason NOT to bet a flop like Q72 with 78 (due to our SD value) when OOP in a 3bet pot? My concern would be the only hands that will let us get to SD would be 88-JJ, so we mine as well bet and possibly barrel some turns (turn our pair into a bluff) rather than check and give up. Any advice on the situation where you spike a single medium strength pair OOP after 3betting? (obv villain dependent, but lets say vs a common TAG).

Also:
I assume to make 3betting SC'ers OOP profitable, we are typically playing aggressively on the flop with a strong draw (FD/OESD on rainbow boards) in this situation. but what about situations where we hit an OESD on a tt or mono board (no BDFD) or a FD on a multi-BW board (KJ4tt with 65s with FD)? Basically, can you think of a situation where we are better off ch/C a draw in a 3bet pot OOP with a SC?
Barreling the turn is situation dependent, and perhaps you'll get to this later.

Some really good questions here! In the first case, remember that we're 3betting hands like this as a bluff, mainly because we expect to get folds often enough to make 3betting profitable. If the villain calls us, presumably, he has a strong hand. We should be aware of what his 4betting range is in this spot and be able to narrow his range to something specific. (For example, 88-JJ/AQ/maybe AJ-KQ). We can then look at stats like fold to cbet (and obviously see how our equity shapes up against his range on specific board textures) to decide whether we want to continue at all, fire one, or empty the clip. (There will be very few spots in which I just fire two, because at that point, the pot is almost too large not to just shove into to try and take down). Situations where we flop equity can be particularly murky and to be honest, when we start getting this specific, reads become VERY important. One TAG will call a 3bet IP and be 100% incapable of not stacking off on a 52827 board...another will peel one and fold the turn and another will peel two and fold to a 1/2 pot river shove. For the most part, I won't try a 3barrel bluff in a 3bet pot on a low board unless I've seen the villain do something like call two and fold the river (obviously in a spot where I want him to call). Make notes when these things happen and you'll find good villains to barrel (and yes, I would advocate turning small one-pair hands into a bluff on the river because for the most part, their range for calling two beats has you beaten).

With 78s, I'd usually cbet on that board (especially with a bdfd) if I feel like my fold equity is high enough. My overall cbet% is on the low side, so I think I get a bit more credit when I cbet in 3bet pots. Results may vary, of course. I really hate to c/c in 3bet pots as the aggressor because we usually turn our hand face-up and put money into the pot in a spot where our opponent can easily push us off.

Could you explain using board texture to set up a 3 BARREL bluff wherein it would be theoretically "incorrect" to fire only 2 barrels? Typically, we are firing the 2nd barrel when the turn card improves our range and "scares" villain's range, and not firing when the card hits his and/or misses ours. However, I know there exists an exception to this rule where we CAN 2 barrel these "bad" cards as long as we fire a 3rd barrel on certain rivers. I can't seem to wrap my head around when this is appropriate, however. The best I can come up with is targeting draws and medium pairs on a board like 976r or J95tt when the turn is a blank. It makes no sense to fire a second barrel on the blank if our villain tends to call 2x with draws/combo draws or single pairs, but if we fire 3 barrels on the right cards, he can't take the heat with his one pair (or Ah/Kh) hand.

Is this right, or am I missing something? It seems this would be a 4th reason to bet (to set up dead money on the river) just as we cbet the flop to pick up dead money on the turn vs players who peel flop cbets too wide.

This is a fairly advanced concept in my opinion and I think it will be extremely easy to misapply (especially in micro stakes where fold equity is much lower). Also, it is EXTREMELY villain dependent and requires a solid read that our opponent is capable of calling two streets and then folding to a river bet. For the most part, people aren't calling two lightly unless there's a ton of history or an obvious draw. In the latter case, barreling a dry turn on a drawy board with the intent of firing a blank river can be profitable, but we need to be aware that our opponent plays draws passively, will fold (rather than bluff-raise) when he misses the river, and is unlikely to call three with some random TP/MP hand. Also, we should know that getting called down lightly in this spot won't induce tilt and mess up the rest of our session.

8:23
What about the fact that if you raise 3xBB preflop and you get one caller your SPR is about 13 on the flop if you both are 100bb deep. Does this mean you should be opening for more or less then 3xBB preflop?

Setting up a good SPR for your hand type is definitely a consideration when considering preflop raise sizing, but sometimes, the sacrifices we'd have to make in order to give ourselves a comfortable SPR to stack off just aren't worth it. Yes, opening for 3-4 bbs will usually put us in a spot where the SPR is awkward for our hand if we have AK/AQ/TT+, but that's assuming that we're thinking that we should always stack off with an overpair or TP hand. This simply isn't the case. Being cognizant of SPR allows us to make commitment decisions postflop. If we have AA and get called preflop and the flop is T 5 2 rainbow, we don't have to plan to get all-in vs every opponent (and we probably shouldn't). What we should be doing is putting our opponent on a range, figuring out what kinds of hands he'll be willing stack off with, and act accordingly. Against someone whose stack-off range will be T9/TJ/AT/JJ/QQ/KK/TT/55/22 (which we have 75% equity against) I'm happy to stack off. Against a nit who's stacking off with TT/55/22 only, I'm going to be VERY cautious if he calls the flop and raises the turn. Note that if the SPR was 4 or 3 as opposed to 13, the main question wouldn't be "Do I want to get all in?" it'd be "How the **** can I get all the money in hurr?"

Preflop raise-sizing (in my opinion) should be dictated by the strength of your range, and the table dynamic. The stronger your range, the larger your sizing should be (for value). If you have a wide range (either because you're at a nitty table and expect to take it down a TON) or because you like having lots of maneuvering room postflop, you'll want to raise less. At a table that's very passive preflop and very fit/fold postflop, you may want to size larger preflop and smaller postflop. Lots of adjustments can be made, and if we're making them for the right reasons, our winrate will increase.

As per your second set of questions, I'll try and look at some spots (I'll probably be requesting some HHs for review in our last episode) but as always, there are some general questions you should be asking yourself.

If you're going for thin value, ask yourself if your opponent has anything worse that can call, figure out what those hands could be, and size accordingly. If you blast the pot hoping to get called by something weak, chances are, you're burning money.

If you're thinking about bluffing the river with a missed draw, it helps to know what kinds of hands your opponent can call a preflop raise and two postflop bets with that will suddenly want to fold the river. Barring that, someone whose call flop cbet is 60, whose turn call cbet is 70, and whose went to sd is 18%, is a good person to bluff with your missed draw.

Thanks

So if I hit my hand after a 3 bet preflop then I should be looking to stack off unless the board is really bad? This is something I'm having trouble with understanding. I know it has to do with equity and odds.

I have some hands I can send that I made thin value bets on.

Excellent-thanks for the replies. Look forward to the rest of the season!

Really useful series, thank you.

I have a quick question related to cbetting at micro/small stakes.

The prevailing wisdom seems to be that you should be cbetting 70% of flops or you'll be missng loads of value. You seem to suggest people are cbetting too much and people are adjusting by calling lighter.

Is a more circumspect approach to cbetting the flop a more profitable approach in your view?

Really useful series, thank you.

I have a quick question related to cbetting at micro/small stakes.

The prevailing wisdom seems to be that you should be cbetting 70% of flops or you'll be missng loads of value. You seem to suggest people are cbetting too much and people are adjusting by calling lighter.

Is a more circumspect approach to cbetting the flop a more profitable approach in your view?

70% seems pretty high to me. At micro your most likely spots to get a call are preflop and on the flop. I would base your c-bets off of: stats (fold to c-bet), the board, and hand ranges. You can also look at your c-bet success.

70% seems pretty high to me. At micro your most likely spots to get a call are preflop and on the flop. I would base your c-bets off of: stats (fold to c-bet), the board, and hand ranges. You can also look at your c-bet success.

This thread suggests 70% flop cbet is common.

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/26-Full-Ring-No-Limit/topics/7199-Cbet-Success-Analysis

Poker Student: Remember that our opponent's range for calling is going to be fairly strong (otherwise we wouldn't be 3bet-bluffing him, right?). You need to know your villain and what his range (and plan for that range) will be should be call your 3bet. If your opponent can't fold any overpair postflop in a 3b pot (and doesn't float at all), then we want to slow down with our TP hands after making a continuation bet. While cbetting 78 on Q73 probably won't get us any value from worse, we may have some thin bluff equity vs a hand like 99/TT and we don't put ourselves in a spot where our opponent can push us off of a better hand. If we're never worried about our opponent bluffing when we check to him, then we can look at our raw equity vs his calling range (in which case, our 78 still shapes up pretty poorly).

Zend: When I started playing, I used to not only pay attention to stats, but I would try my best to achieve stats that seemed to be shared amongst a lot of players. Whether it be from poker forum mantra or just some player that I really liked. The problem I ran into was that I wasn't thinking how the stats got there in the first place so I wasn't thinking about spots that were good or bad to open, fold, cbet, barrel...anything. I think Poker Student did a great job of pointing out the kinds of factors you should be considering when cbetting. If we sat at tables where people folded a whole much to cbets, and we got great board textures, our overall cbet SHOULD be a lot higher than if we were playing against calling stations and continuously got board textures where people don't fold (like Th 8s 7s).

Zend: When I started playing, I used to not only pay attention to stats, but I would try my best to achieve stats that seemed to be shared amongst a lot of players. Whether it be from poker forum mantra or just some player that I really liked. The problem I ran into was that I wasn't thinking how the stats got there in the first place so I wasn't thinking about spots that were good or bad to open, fold, cbet, barrel...anything.

Thanks for this, which makes so much sense and has probably identified one of my (many!) current leaks i.e. relying too heavily on statistical goals. One of those things you don't notice you're doing, until someone points it out to you. Interesting to hear you had a similar experience. PokerStudent was also making the same point, I guess, so a hat tip there too.

I'm no math wiz but you would have to take the pot down a lot in order to make c-betting 70% of the time against micro players a +EV play. As I said at mirco you are more likly to get called light on the flop and preflop then you are to get a fold. Your statement is to general and wrong.

I think most ppl at micros are more likely to play fit or fold than they are to call you with complete air to make a move later or something. Of course if they flop 3rd pair or something they are gonna call you down but you flop a piece ~30% of the time. Assuming you don't cbet to POT and that you will actually have a hand some percentage of the time, i think cbeting 70% is in fact +EV.

I'm no math wiz but you would have to take the pot down a lot in order to make c-betting 70% of the time against micro players a +EV play. As I said at mirco you are more likly to get called light on the flop and preflop then you are to get a fold. Your statement is to general and wrong.

Agreed and thanks. One of the things I'm learning is that generalisations can often lead you into bad habits or to stop thinking about each individual spot.

Just for interests sake, my cbet flop % is 64% with a cbet success rate of 41%.

I think most ppl at micros are more likely to play fit or fold than they are to call you with complete air to make a move later or something. Of course if they flop 3rd pair or something they are gonna call you down but you flop a piece ~30% of the time. Assuming you don't cbet to POT and that you will actually have a hand some percentage of the time, i think cbeting 70% is in fact +EV.

Thats funny because I get called by A high, over cards, inside straight draws, any pair, and so on on the flop a lot. Ok is betting bottom pair a +EV play when you get called by top pair and no kicker or middle pair? Is betting Air which you will have most of the time and then getting called by any pair a +EV play? How about when you have air with less then A high and you get called by an A high. Show me the math! You need all the things I said not to just randomly be betting 70% of the time.

cbetting 70-80% at 25-50nl is totally fine and close to optimal imo.
so many passives at those stakes are one and done or fit or fold that you're still getting 40-50% cbet success, and a very good double/triple barrel success. Cbetting a high % is also key to creating dead money to capitalize on in further streets, as well as creating a bigger value pot the times you make your hand on the turn/river.

cbetting 70-80% at 25-50nl is totally fine and close to optimal imo.
so many passives at those stakes are one and done or fit or fold that you're still getting 40-50% cbet success, and a very good double/triple barrel success. Cbetting a high % is also key to creating dead money to capitalize on in further streets, as well as creating a bigger value pot the times you make your hand on the turn/river.

We're not talking about 25-50NL. We're talking about 10NL and below. Also what I want to see is the math behind the play. If your C-bet is only working 1/2 the time or less and your C-betting that much I don't see how you could be making money on the play. When you get called and you lose you lose more then when you don't get called so you have to make up for the extra money. Also bet size would have to have something to do with it as well. How is C-betting a player that much that is going to call you light a good play? As I said before show me the math!!! I want to know if this is the right line of play.

oh, sorry I have never played 10nl and lower and I don't think anyone else should for long if it can be helped

as for the math I am not going to get into all that, but you make money every time people fold pre, then you make money when they call and fold to cbet. then you make quite a bit of money when they call pre and flop, fold turn. also there are times you're cbetting and have a made hand or make one on the turn, you make money all these times as well.

oh, sorry I have never played 10nl and lower and I don't think anyone else should for long if it can be helped

as for the math I am not going to get into all that, but you make money every time people fold pre, then you make money when they call and fold to cbet. then you make quite a bit of money when they call pre and flop, fold turn. also there are times you're cbetting and have a made hand or make one on the turn, you make money all these times as well.

Do you make money when you start to get called down light if you don't have a hand (which if your c-betting that much most of the time you won't)? What happens when you start to get check / raised and raised? What about when you get called on the flop and they bet the turn? I would hardly call c-betting 80% of the time optimal. If your bet only works 1/2 the time and you c-bet that much what about the other 1/2 of the time when your c-bet doesn't work and you end up losing? Not everone can buy-in at 50NL or higher. Also for person just starting out why would they??? This is going no where. Like I said show me the math that shows this is a +EV play to make all the time! No one seems to be able to do that.

That's because it would take a bunch of work to try and prove this mathematically why would someone take the hours to bother. I have played several million hands of full ring NL I am just telling you what I have done that works. The fact is that in these spots I will usually have position as my preflop raising range is very late position heavy. I also will have the betting initiative. The 3 main factors to winning any pot are the combination of hand equity, position, and betting initiative. So I have 2 of these 3 and an at least decent hand equity in a majority of the pots I am raising. So not only do I have my basic cbet to win me money, I have position, initiative, and hand reading ability. This will help me determine when to fire 2 and 3 barrels and when to give up.

If a particular player starts playing back at my cbets often, I will just cbet less often or start bet/3betting them or bet/calling them in position on the flop with a wider equity range, and they are going to lose the battle of adjustments because I am choosing mainly situations where I have a stronger combination of the 3 above mentioned key factors and am better than most of my opponents at poker.

Gonna stop hijacking this thread I hope you got something out of my input

Time Link to 00:28:55

So from this I can conclude you don't 3bet KQ,AJ,AQ,AK? Really everything that has really some value but isn't ahead of QQ+ you can say right?

So from this I can conclude you don't 3bet KQ,AJ,AQ,AK? Really everything that has really some value but isn't ahead of QQ+ you can say right?

I will definitely be 3betting those hands, but the key point is that I'm not 3betting them for value . Remember that when we talk about betting for value, it's specially betting because we think we will be ahead of the hands that villain will call with. Against players with a very high fold to 3bet, I would consider the hands you've listed as semi-bluffs. In other words, we're 3betting those hands to get some slightly better hands to fold (for example, getting a hand like AQo to fold OOP to our 3b with AJo or getting 88 to fold when we 3b AK) and if we do get called, we have a fair amount of equity to fall back on.

I will add that 3betting also takes initiative away from the raiser, (usually) represents a really strong range, and increases your fold equity and these factors definitely add to the overall EV of the play...however, the math gets a bit messy and is highly dependent on villain's postflop play to calculate to both determine our pot equity vs his range and gained fold equity.

Seraph brings up some excellent points here and it's worth repeating that skill advantage, initiative, and position have huge effects on which plays will be and won't be profitable. I will add, though, that fold equity plays a rather important part as well and that for players who aren't going to have either the experience or the reads that goldseraph has developed over millions of hands, developing multi-street plans vs most of the uNL field (especially stations) will be tough.

I will definitely be 3betting those hands, but the key point is that I'm not 3betting them for value . Remember that when we talk about betting for value, it's specially betting because we think we will be ahead of the hands that villain will call with. Against players with a very high fold to 3bet, I would consider the hands you've listed as semi-bluffs. In other words, we're 3betting those hands to get some slightly better hands to fold (for example, getting a hand like AQo to fold OOP to our 3b with AJo or getting 88 to fold when we 3b AK) and if we do get called, we have a fair amount of equity to fall back on.

I will add that 3betting also takes initiative away from the raiser, (usually) represents a really strong range, and increases your fold equity and these factors definitely add to the overall EV of the play...however, the math gets a bit messy and is highly dependent on villain's postflop play to calculate to both determine our pot equity vs his range and gained fold equity.

Seraph brings up some excellent points here and it's worth repeating that skill advantage, initiative, and position have huge effects on which plays will be and won't be profitable. I will add, though, that fold equity plays a rather important part as well and that for players who aren't going to have either the experience or the reads that goldseraph has developed over millions of hands, developing multi-street plans vs most of the uNL field (especially stations) will be tough.

Oke I understand. So when having people that have high fold to 3b% you 3b them with the same hands you would 3b a tight person + suited gappers to 46s, Ax hands, maybe K9s+ and maybe suited connectors.

Also would you take your table image inconsideration? I mean at the 10NL field where I play the regs tent to fold almost against every 3b (some try setmine what's like $$$$ ). So you encounter many people with fold to 3b 80-85+%. Would you then ball untill they play back at you? Or would you try to maybe maintain a 3b% ~10 to keep some respect?

Time Link to 00:37:23

I lol'd

Time Link to 00:23:04

Are you saying we should never 3bet preflop and on the flop if we have pocket Qs or lower?

Are you saying we should never 3bet preflop and on the flop if we have pocket Qs or lower?

I'm saying that we need to be aware of what our opponent is going to continue with before we decide whether or not to 3b any hand. If he's going to call with a whole mess of hands, then we can obviously 3bet QQ for value. However, if he's just going to fold all his worse hands and continue with better ones, then it's usually better to call and keep those weaker hands in.

So how should I play QQ for example,lets say I'm in BTN or CO,and the MP raises PF 3bb,another dude calls and I have position on them,bough player are fairly tight in the range of 20/15,What I'm thinking is that I should 3bet,because I'm going to collect 7,5bb at this point if they fold,however if one of those players shoves on me,I can easily fold,because I invested 13bb to get 7.5.I raise this is amount to narrow their range down,because most of the time KK and AA will shove and most likely I will save money on post flop play.Now lets say they call,that doesn't mean yet that they have AA or KK,and thats a mistake on their part now calling with small pocket pairs,most likely they will fold to cbet.Their are folding to cbet 60-70% and the board is 852 rainbow. Now here where it gets complicated to at least,show I cbet the flop,or check and let them bluff,because they fold all losing hands and I won't get any value of my QQ. Another thing is that turn most likely will be T-A,this might give them a set or TP,so what is the best play here? If I cbet the flop and take it down,I make 14.5bb at this point,should I try to extract more value of my hand?I understand that most of this depends on the range that he is calling. Please explain with various situation pre flop and post flop. This brings me a totally different point of view on my QQ/JJ/TT. Thank you,your videos are very helpful.

another thing where you talk about play at 1:06.I did some math on this and the way I look into this is.BB 3bets my raise to 10bb, I call with 99+,now pot gets 20,5bb,he bets 15bb, I call and pot is 50,5,if he checks,I should be betting 35bb,so at this point I put post flop 50bb into pot,thats half of stack,I don't want to put this much money with 99+,If I raise him on the flop to 35-40bb I save 10bb+ every single time I play the same way! So why should I try to call and then bet? Thank you

That's because it would take a bunch of work to try and prove this mathematically why would someone take the hours to bother. I have played several million hands of full ring NL I am just telling you what I have done that works. The fact is that in these spots I will usually have position as my preflop raising range is very late position heavy. I also will have the betting initiative. The 3 main factors to winning any pot are the combination of hand equity, position, and betting initiative. So I have 2 of these 3 and an at least decent hand equity in a majority of the pots I am raising. So not only do I have my basic cbet to win me money, I have position, initiative, and hand reading ability. This will help me determine when to fire 2 and 3 barrels and when to give up.

If a particular player starts playing back at my cbets often, I will just cbet less often or start bet/3betting them or bet/calling them in position on the flop with a wider equity range, and they are going to lose the battle of adjustments because I am choosing mainly situations where I have a stronger combination of the 3 above mentioned key factors and am better than most of my opponents at poker.

Gonna stop hijacking this thread I hope you got something out of my input

A+ you should also add the board texture,most people just cbet no matter what. Pick your spots,check your opponents stats,check agg fr and you will be able to make money. When you play a player like goldseraph you are going to trap in the corner and it will seem like he's running hot all the time. Nope,its the way you make your moves. If you have ever played chess,you know that you adjust to your opponent moves,so why not to adjust in here? If you want some math,find Threads13,he talks a bit how to calculate EV,do the math,add all the factors,play the scenario 100 times(witch is not possible,because every play in poker is different) and you will have the answer.