Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by RapidEvolution (Micro/Small Stakes)

Time Link to 00:39:36

on Q32 K 4 with QT-if we make the mistake and check back the K turn and villain leads for 1/2 pot on the 4 river, are you any more likely to call here than vs the ch/C, ch/C, lead line? My thoughts are this player is passive. He has a cbet of 0. I wish we knew his WTSD, but my guess it it's high. If we go with our id'ed range for him as med pocket pairs, flopped air, and occasional slowplays, he is checking the river hoping to get to SD with all the PP's, he will always bet his slowplayed monsters and bigger Kx hands, and we have no reason to think he suddenly decides to bluff this blank river with Ah (he's passive) so therefore it's a definite fold.

If we would have 3bet pre flop, we would have undoubtedly cbet this flop. With such small effective stacks, what's our play when he checks to us on the K turn?

Time Link to 01:01:38

re. looking at players ahead of you when you're isoing-something else important to note, I think, is that we don't just want GOOD hands when we are in a situation like this whre we are trying to iso a LP limper and there's another likely cold caller in the blinds, we should think about what TYPE of hands plays best in the most likely scenario.

For instance, if we look to the left here, the most likely player to come along is the BB (SB is very tight) and BB is a SSed 80/20 with AF of 1.3, e.g, a fish. So we are going to want to iso with very different type of hands in this situation than if we have a TAG in the blinds or if we have 2 weak/tight players left that will rarely ever come along.

The way I understand it, if we expect the limper to call AND the LP player in the blinds to call like in the video, we should be choosing hands that play well multiway to iso with. We also need to look at stack sizes, though. Even if we're full stacked, if both of the fish who are expected to call have 30BB, we really shouldn't be isoing with small suited connectors-I'd rather have a pair, or other hands that are likely to make top pair that I'm ok stacking off with when I hit my pair on the flop.

Considering table dynamics before opening/isoing is even more important OOP. We should never open or iso in the CO/HJ before checking the Button's stats and notes.

re. looking at players ahead of you when you're isoing-something else important to note, I think, is that we don't just want GOOD hands when we are in a situation like this whre we are trying to iso a LP limper and there's another likely cold caller in the blinds, we should think about what TYPE of hands plays best in the most likely scenario.

For instance, if we look to the left here, the most likely player to come along is the BB (SB is very tight) and BB is a SSed 80/20 with AF of 1.3, e.g, a fish. So we are going to want to iso with very different type of hands in this situation than if we have a TAG in the blinds or if we have 2 weak/tight players left that will rarely ever come along.

The way I understand it, if we expect the limper to call AND the LP player in the blinds to call like in the video, we should be choosing hands that play well multiway to iso with. We also need to look at stack sizes, though. Even if we're full stacked, if both of the fish who are expected to call have 30BB, we really shouldn't be isoing with small suited connectors-I'd rather have a pair, or other hands that are likely to make top pair that I'm ok stacking off with when I hit my pair on the flop.

Considering table dynamics before opening/isoing is even more important OOP. We should never open or iso in the CO/HJ before checking the Button's stats and notes.

Agreed. If we have players behind that are really tight or really aggro (in which case the most likely scenarios are that either people are folding or raising to take down the dead money), I'd much rather be isoing high-card or big pair hands that will play well HU. If the field is really passive (preflop AND postflop) I'm content to limp along and see a multiway flop in position with excellent implied odds.

As for the QT hand, I'm not really thrilled with the idea of 3b bluffing people unless I know that their fold to 3bet is very high and we'll have a ton of FE...especially if they're shorter stacked and we're going to hit the commitment threshold much sooner than we'd like to. I probably would NOT cbet this flop had we 3bet it pre. Our hand isn't particularly vulnerable and given stacks, it's only going to take 2 streets of betting to get the money in, so against an unknown, I'm more likely to check the flop, then bet the turn and river.

As for the QT hand, I'm not really thrilled with the idea of 3b bluffing people unless I know that their fold to 3bet is very high and we'll have a ton of FE...especially if they're shorter stacked and we're going to hit the commitment threshold much sooner than we'd like to. I probably would NOT cbet this flop had we 3bet it pre. Our hand isn't particularly vulnerable and given stacks, it's only going to take 2 streets of betting to get the money in, so against an unknown, I'm more likely to check the flop, then bet the turn and river.

Ok, this makes sense considering stack size, however the post flop awkwardness definitely shows why folding > 3betting here. I suppose you'd need a read to 3bet, and if that read was they fold to 3bets, then it might be ok (or if they play fit/fold in 3bet pots, then 3bet/cbet, right?) .

Ok, this makes sense considering stack size, however the post flop awkwardness definitely shows why folding > 3betting here. I suppose you'd need a read to 3bet, and if that read was they fold to 3bets, then it might be ok (or if they play fit/fold in 3bet pots, then 3bet/cbet, right?) .

Yeah if they're going to be putting in a ton of dead money preflop (via calling a 3bet with a wide range OOP and folding when they miss), then I think we could 3bet. However, we'd want to have a really solid read on their stack-off range postflop because against some opponents (those who will stack off with JJ or 2nd pair) we really can't bet/fold, but against players who won't ship over our cbet with worse, it's going to be a fold (we'd only have 18% equity vs a hand like KK on Q63)

Time Link to 00:05:59

Can this loose calling of 3bets also be applied for players who play 6/6 without reads/stats? Isn't it more likely that a player that is that tight would also call 3bets more tightly and will therefore only call more likely with better hands?

So isn't it best to do this with people who have like 14/12 and above or something like that because they are already tempted to play looser and you can easier get value of weaker hands?

Also is 3betting callingstations oke with AKo? Or do you first want to see a flop because you don't have a made hand yet. I'm asking this because you lose the minimum when you didn't hit but when you hit it's more easy to extract value from them.

Last question: would you also 3bet AKo IP when it is a multiway pot?

And again thx for all the effort you put in answering questions

Time Link to 00:19:08

With reads here you mean if you know how high/low his cbet frequency on flop AND turn right or did I misunderstood? But when someone has a high went to showdown frequency would you still make this play?

Is this a play you often make on low board (atleast lower then J?). Or also sometimes on boards that are A to Q high? Or does this all depends on the preflop range an opponent has combined with the cbet frequency?

Also is this a play that is suitable for boards that are draw heavy?

Also when your turn bet is called would you fire the river again when a scarecards pops up like an overcard?

About what I maybe want to see in next vids:

How to play draws when your the aggressor and when your not the aggressor. I often have diffulculties overestimate my implied odds when calling on the flop/turn with my draw.

How to play made hands (TP or better) on very drawheavy boards (and possible made draw boards!). For example you hold AK and the board is Kxx of the same suit. How do you continue? Or you hold 66 and the board is K69 with 2 suited and the turn or river complete's the flushdraw. I usually shut down against any type of aggression with the fear of running in a flush.

The part of my above question and what you mentioned I thought when or when not to float.

everything you said about cbet would be ofcourse very helpfull!

And last: Keep up the good work!

Can this loose calling of 3bets also be applied for players who play 6/6 without reads/stats? Isn't it more likely that a player that is that tight would also call 3bets more tightly and will therefore only call more likely with better hands?

So isn't it best to do this with people who have like 14/12 and above or something like that because they are already tempted to play looser and you can easier get value of weaker hands?

Also is 3betting callingstations oke with AKo? Or do you first want to see a flop because you don't have a made hand yet. I'm asking this because you lose the minimum when you didn't hit but when you hit it's more easy to extract value from them.

Last question: would you also 3bet AKo IP when it is a multiway pot?

And again thx for all the effort you put in answering questions

When we're sitting with AK and are thinking about a 3bet, remember that we can either 3bet for value or as a thin bluff+scooping of dead money. If we're 3betting for value, it's because we expect that an opponent will call us with worse hands (KQ/KJ/AQ/AJ). In this instance, 3betting not only gets us value, but also allows us to create a pot size on the flop that is easy to commit to. If we're 3betting as a bluff, it's because we know he'll fold a lot of PPs that have a thin equity advantage against us.

There are reasons for calling as well. If we know the villain has a tendency to overvalue tpmk AND he'll have hands that we dominate in his opening range that will fold to a 3bet, calling allows us to get some good value postflop. We need to be careful, however, about stacking off in these spots because the pot size on the flop won't be conducive to staking off profitably (unless we know the villain will stack off with any tp hand).

When it's multiway, 3betting is still very good. There's a lot of money in the pot to take down (from the multiple callers) AND if players are passive, we should be able to stack off with TPTK quite profitably. We do need to be aware, though, of putting in too much money vs ppl who can't fold when we miss the flop.

Thanks for the respons!

Last question about the 3bet topic:

In a multiway pot how much would you bet? Is there a standard for full stacks? Or do you look at the villains tendencies to call (higher tendency higher ammount?). This because when 1 villain calls the other villains get far better odds then you want, but you don't want to bet an ammount that only would be called by better hands.

And final question : Never 3bet AK OOP right?

4-6 bb+1/limper is a decent place to start. As you correctly stated, you want to make adjustments both for calling ranges and your own hand strength. For hands that will flop tptk or against villains who love to call pre and then fold post, I tend to raise larger. If I'm iso-ing with something prospective (I'd do this sometimes if I'm planning to overlimp but have a very aggressive player behind me) or against someone who's very passive postflop, I tend to raise smaller to reduce my preflop investment and increase my implied odds postflop.


As for 3betting AK OOP, (as usual) it depends. Things do get a bit tougher OOP against some villains, so we do want to have some kind of idea how they play postflop. Also, blindly cbetting into bad board textures is a great way to lose money, so we need to be aware that sometimes check/folding will be the best play on the flop.

Time Link to 00:10:03

Shouldn't you be takeing the money out of his stack and not hers because he has less money then she does. Also what about the 15:1 rule? Its faster and eaiser.

On the last hand if he bet 1/2 the pot or more would you still base your raise off of the pot size or did you just do that because it was a min bet?

And final question : Never 3bet AK OOP right?

What if your in the blinds and your opponent is opening wide from LP when it's folded to him. A fold is to tight and you can get value out of a 3 bet. Thats just one spot and I'm sure there are a lot more where a 3 bet is the right play.

Great video, I'm really enjoying this series thanks Rapid, the 5/10 rule and thinking about the value of weak two pairs hands in limped pots is really useful. I love your relaxed style in the videos also and Mellisa is a blast - great combination. I love those minbets! ;P

Keep up the good work!

Thanks

How much should we 3B when we are deep?

I posted a hand on FR Forum (that no-one has replied to) where UTGish minRaises ($1) and Hero has AA. We are both $100ish stacks at 50NL. And Villain's stats look like he will be tempted to set-mine.

3B small or deny set-mining odds but that is a big 3B when we are deep?

as you get deeper stacked there is less of a need for reraiseing preflop.

This is definitely incorrect, at least in today's games. The deeper you get, you want to 3bet more than usual in position, as the power of position is magnified the deeper you are.

I'm glad you didn't say it depends on your cards, though. That's a big no-no. Also, whether deep or 100BB, the BIGGEST factor to consider when sizing your 3bets is position. all else being equal, we should be making our OOP 3bets LARGER to charge our opponents for being in position post flop vs us. It also depends on the PFR size. 11-12BB total is about right for IP 3bets vs a 3x PFR while I like 13-14BB OOP. I add at least an extra BB for each cold caller as well, sometimes more depending on the player type.

I would say you are incorrect. There is less need to 3 bet because you can not set up stack off's post flop and you are going to get called wide. All your doing is pumping the pot and a top pair hand has less power. SC and small pairs go up in value. Preflop all in will not be common. Small ball comes into play a lot more. Any wet flop will put you in a tough spot. If your getting played back at are going to want to get it in when your deep with just top pair? In fact your line of play is what a small ball player wants because when they hit they will win more from you and they can put you in a lot of tough spots post flop. 11bb is an over bet big time and they can still set mine. 5.5x15=82.50 and he would have 91.50 left. Your 3 bet would have to be over 6x his bet or 12+ BB. Your over playing your hand preflop.

11bb total, not the PFR size +11bb. 11bb is on the lower side of a standard 3bet.

When we are 200BB deep, we can still 3bet about the same amount if opponents are not calling OOP (playing 4bet/fold), or we can add more to give them worse odds if they will continue to call OOP with a wide range, but we're rarely going to be able to prevent people from getting implied odds to setmine-that's still not a reason to avoid 3betting, however, especially IP. we simply adjust- we need to cbet more often (to take down dead money) and play more cautiously vs aggression, especially vs a typically passive player.
Who said anything about getting it in with top pair deep in a 3bet pot? Certainly this is player dependent, but in general, we are not 3betting to try and set up for a shove when we hit top pair, we are raising to take advantage of players calling too wide or folding too wide and not adjusting to being deep OOP. We should certainly be making different hand choices depending on our opponents' calling and playing back range, but saying that we shouldn't 3bet for value simply because people can raise us post flop when we hit top pair or an overpair is just playing scared poker imo.

That's like saying you aren't going to bet top pair for value on a drawy board because you might get raised by someone with a draw and fold equity since the money won't be all in. The fear of the raise doesn't overcome the fact that NOT betting will miss value and provide them a free look at another street. Same goes for 3betting deep in position-not doing so is leaving money on the table since they will call SO often with hands that DON'T hit a set and ch/F to you post flop (or even worse, ch/C the flop and then ch/F the turn).

0.50(11)=5.5 total so I don't know what you are talking about. When your deep there is more post flop play to be had thus you don't need to 3 bet as much. I was talking about setting up a stack off not stacking off. I was also thinking in terms of SPR. All I said was you could be jamed up post flop not to be scared. When deeped stacked small ball is the nuts. I also never said you should not bet top pair on a draw heavy board. All I said was you should not be as likely to want to get it in when your deep of course this depends on the player.

Moving on because this is a wast of time

pre-flop raises in those difficult deep-stack situations


in this type of game, there’s actually a lot less re-raising before the flop. Even if you are re-raised, the loss to your stack will be minimal if you are forced to fold. When a typical re-raise might only cost you 1 percent of your stack, that’s something you can live with.

Another concern is the implied odds after the flop.

In a short buy-in game, when you make a big raise before the flop, the pot will be so large in relation to the stacks that other players will often move all-in if they have any sort of hand at all. That’s just not the case when playing deep-stack poker.


Daniel Negreanu

This was my point!!!

pre-flop raises in those difficult deep-stack situations


in this type of game, there’s actually a lot less re-raising before the flop. Even if you are re-raised, the loss to your stack will be minimal if you are forced to fold. When a typical re-raise might only cost you 1 percent of your stack, that’s something you can live with.

Another concern is the implied odds after the flop.

In a short buy-in game, when you make a big raise before the flop, the pot will be so large in relation to the stacks that other players will often move all-in if they have any sort of hand at all. That’s just not the case when playing deep-stack poker.


Daniel Negreanu

This was my point!!!

It's a question of what level and type of opponents you are facing and how they react to your re-raising. I don't have to worry about playing the likes of D.N. so I can exploit others' failures to properly adjust to being deep by 3betting more in position. Just because D.N. states there is less 3betting in deep stack games doesn't mean I shouldn't be doing it, or that my online 50NL game will respond to IP 3bets in a theoretically profitable way. He's simply comparing playing deep stacks to extremely short stack situations (such as in a SNG) where short stacks can stack off light with many more hands over 3bets profitably. Sure, it might be exploitable, but IN TODAY'S MICRO STAKES GAMES 3betting preflop in position in a deep game=+EV.

Moving on because this is a wast of time

BTW, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but your responses to my posts in this thread seem to carry a defensive tone that is really unnecessary-I'm just stating my opinion and backing it up with what I believe to be solid logic and you appear to be reacting like I'm attacking you some way. We're all expressing our opinions about a subject where there's clearly some disagreement, so we should all feel free to disagree and offer a counter-argument as long as we can back it up. We all have the same goal here-to better ourselves at poker.

What ever!
As I said your just wasting my time trying to argue about dumb shit. The bottom line is when your deep you don't need to 3 bet preflop as much preflop.

How much should we 3B when we are deep?

I posted a hand on FR Forum (that no-one has replied to) where UTGish minRaises ($1) and Hero has AA. We are both $100ish stacks at 50NL. And Villain's stats look like he will be tempted to set-mine.

3B small or deny set-mining odds but that is a big 3B when we are deep?

I think alot of this depends on how willing you are to lay down aces post flop. It doesn't matter that he's getting 10:1 if he's not going to get your stack because you have realised he's set mining and your AA don't look so great on a 489 flop

Time Link to 00:38:01

I agree with RapidEvolution that valuebetting this hand if checked to on the river is a bit to thin. But if we aren't gonna valuebet two streets, why valubet the turn? A better line would be to check behind the turn and make a valuebet if checked to on the river and call if the villan bets. This way we extract the same amount of value as if our turn valubet got called and the river goes check check.

Checking behind on the turn may also induce a bluff from A X or a valuebet from 77-JJ wich they are placing the opponent on while these hands probalby would fold to a turn valuebet.

I agree with RapidEvolution that valuebetting this hand if checked to on the river is a bit to thin. But if we aren't gonna valuebet two streets, why valubet the turn? A better line would be to check behind the turn and make a valuebet if checked to on the river and call if the villan bets. This way we extract the same amount of value as if our turn valubet got called and the river goes check check.

Checking behind on the turn may also induce a bluff from A X or a valuebet from 77-JJ wich they are placing the opponent on while these hands probalby would fold to a turn valuebet.

My point was that going for three streets of value with QT on this board was too thin. Checking the turn with the intent of betting the river or calling a river bet isn't a bad play at all, but chances are that we have the best hand right now and should put money in, rather than give our opponent a free shot to improve OR allow another overcard to our opponent's pair to fall and make him fold.

Time Link to 00:06:29

If they have a range of 88+ AQ+ then we are a flip at best so why would we 3 bet pre? Also are they really go to stack off on an A or K high board with an under pair? What are we getting value from other then AQ post flop and there aren't many bluffs we can pull of post flop. This seems to be a call at best.

Thoughts

If they have a range of 88+ AQ+ then we are a flip at best so why would we 3 bet pre? Also are they really go to stack off on an A or K high board with an under pair? What are we getting value from other then AQ post flop and there aren't many bluffs we can pull of post flop. This seems to be a call at best.

Thoughts

If you think of this as a raw equity calc vs his range, you're completely right about how we're doing. However we need to consider other things as well, such as:

a) the fact that villains at these stakes are likely to call OOP and c/f missed flops. Now here, most of that range (if it's there) will be pocket pairs trying to setmine and he'll be folding quite often. In this case the 3bet serves to allow the opponent to put dead money in the pot and then fold.

b) the fact that if he doesn't like to setmine, then our 3bet acts as a balance for when we 3bet the value part of our range and as a thin bluff vs hands that have a slight edge against us.

c) The fact that there aren't a ton of boards where we can get value postflop (since he, at best, has one ace that we dominate) is actually more of a reason not to call. If we thought our opponent would have lots of worse aces in his range that we could get value from postflop, then calling pre would be better (unless of course, we thought that he'd call worse aces against a 3bet)

If you think of this as a raw equity calc vs his range, you're completely right about how we're doing. However we need to consider other things as well, such as:

a) the fact that villains at these stakes are likely to call OOP and c/f missed flops. Now here, most of that range (if it's there) will be pocket pairs trying to setmine and he'll be folding quite often. In this case the 3bet serves to allow the opponent to put dead money in the pot and then fold.

b) the fact that if he doesn't like to setmine, then our 3bet acts as a balance for when we 3bet the value part of our range and as a thin bluff vs hands that have a slight edge against us.

c) The fact that there aren't a ton of boards where we can get value postflop (since he, at best, has one ace that we dominate) is actually more of a reason not to call. If we thought our opponent would have lots of worse aces in his range that we could get value from postflop, then calling pre would be better (unless of course, we thought that he'd call worse aces against a 3bet)

Thanks