Poker Video: Razz by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Hey guys, I promised in the vid that we would run a hand @21:30, but we didn't. So here are those sims now:


Our opponents hole cards are unpaired 7 or less (he can still pair the 7-door here):
dead cards: 3689K
Hand Pot equity
(7-7-4)7 59.79%
3566 40.21%

Our opponents hand is unpaired and his hole cards are 7 or less.
dead cards: 3689K
Hand Pot equity
(7-7-47) 68.95%
3566 31.05%

Our opponent's hand is upaired and his hole cards are 8 or less.
dead cards: 3689K
Hand Pot equity
(8-7-47) 67.65%
3566 32.35%


Our opponent has two wheel cards in the hole, unpaired, to go with his 47 (monster hand):
dead cards: 3689K
Hand Pot equity
(5-5-47) 68.61%
3566 31.39%

Opponent has an 8 on 4th with a monster starter:
dead cards: 3689K
Hand Pot equity
(5-5-48) 65.26%
3566 34.74%


At 4.6/1 it is a call.

One last one, I took the dead 3 and 6 out and killed a 4 and a 7 instead:

dead cards: 7489K
Hand Pot equity
(5-5-47) 76.58%
3566 23.42%

This call would be very thin, even at 4.5/1 as your reverse implied odds are very high. The bet doubles on 5th street and you have to really catch perfect and him bad to continue.

This was painful.

This was painful.

I'm not sure if anyone is even going to watch this cause it's Razz, tbh. But maybe we could chat a bit, Chuck, I dunno.

I'm not sure if anyone is even going to watch this cause it's Razz, tbh. But maybe we could chat a bit, Chuck, I dunno.

If I was a paying member I'd watch it.

If I was a paying member I'd watch it.

7 Day free trial, imo.

Oh god, that Bird/Dominique battle was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen on a basketball court.

Watched 20 min. It's just tough to swallow catching so bad. However I think the discussion is very useful about what hands/situations to play.

Will finish it later.

Oh god, that Bird/Dominique battle was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen on a basketball court.

I was mistaken, it was the '88 Eastern Conference Finals, what you have to understand about this clip, if you haven't seen it, is that the only thing that is really edited out is the ball moving up and down the court. There were not missed shots or even times to breathe, really.

As Chuck would say, EPIC! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqOw70lIc6g

Watched 20 min. It's just tough to swallow catching so bad. However I think the discussion is very useful about what hands/situations to play.

You havent' seen running bad in only 20m, please watch the rest. In fact, I feel it's a definitive part of Razz, keeping cool as you build your house of bricks, imo.

@ 9min15sec into the video you have an optimal extended steal opp. I know you and Chuck were chattin' at the time and maybe didn't see it. Was this the case or was there another consideration. You only had to fade 1 eight and you had the 4 in the door. Ok I'm back to watching.

guys, i have to say.. there's sort of a lack of good, non-basic, non-headsup NLHE material lately. ESPECIALLY full ring.

guys, i have to say.. there's sort of a lack of good, non-basic, non-headsup NLHE material lately. ESPECIALLY full ring.

Hey hurt,

This thread probably isn't the right place to comment about this (since it's less likely to get noticed here), but Sean Nolan is going to be back to recording now that the WSOP is over, and we just added another Full Ring instructor as well, goldseraph. You'll definitely be seeing some more FRNL vids in the nearish future, and with Josh being back from Israel we'll be putting up his vids very soon too, so you'll see more 6mNL vids going up as well.

Rob

@ 9min15sec into the video you have an optimal extended steal opp. I know you and Chuck were chattin' at the time and maybe didn't see it. Was this the case or was there another consideration. You only had to fade 1 eight and you had the 4 in the door. Ok I'm back to watching.

yeah should be auto-steal there

I watched it, and I liked it. The conversation kept me from getting bored with the video. I really liked the card simulations at the end. You guys really are an awesome team. I look forward to the next razz video, especially if Danza runs better, and I'm really looking forward to the stud8 stuff too.

One last one, I took the dead 3 and 6 out and killed a 4 and a 7 instead:

dead cards: 7489K
Hand Pot equity
(5-5-47) 76.58%
3566 23.42%

This call would be very thin, even at 4.5/1 as your reverse implied odds are very high. The bet doubles on 5th street and you have to really catch perfect and him bad to continue.

folding is correct here. the equity calcs are relevant but the bottom line is will not be able to continue enough of the time on 5th to make calling 4th profitable. you need to put in 2 bets on 3rd in order to peel here. this is straight out of sklansky on razz.

folding is correct here. the equity calcs are relevant but the bottom line is will not be able to continue enough of the time on 5th to make calling 4th profitable. you need to put in 2 bets on 3rd in order to peel here. this is straight out of sklansky on razz.

Yeah, I agree, 'very thin' in a situation like this is a fold to me most of the time.

Honestly, this is by far the worst razz training video i've watched in my life... not only does the video offer very little... razz content-wise (i mean.. yay! woohoo.. you read slanksy on razz and know.. 1:4 to outflop one.. and >1:10 to outflop two)... the hero makes some pretty bad mistakes in the video... it is not my responsibility to comment on the play and start lively discussions on this site when there's clearly no hope...

the Hero will LITERALLY get ante'd down to the felt if he continues to play this way...

Joe Tall is not qualified to make razz video's... obviously... and i don't see how a donk can train a donk to a stud... i realize that he concedes in the video that it is his worst stud game... this is a training site out.. and such video's should not be offered.. and should be responsibly taken down... for the good of the subscribers...

I did sign up for the 7 day free trial.. cuz i heard some good things about DC... but Razz is definitely not the game... i'll continue my membership for...

I don't mean to be mean or anything... but i think this type of honesty is necessary... for the good of this site...

also making fun of a coach from another site... is very unprofessional... i have a good sense of humor... but it just makes the coaches of DC look bad... especially... in such a poor video... makes it look like you guys are compensating for something....

-j

Hi jkwizzle,

Please bring up any hand you would like to discuss with the time stamp and we will gladly discuss it. As bluntly slamming this video is not constructive at all. By the way, I do not have "Sklansky on Razz" and have never read anything on Razz in my life nor did I know this book existed.

As for the comments, I may have been out of line, but I was more or less commenting on how painful the game of Razz can be. SG is a helluva Razz player, and I gave him all respect about his play. My comments are about the game of Razz itself.

I do appreciate your comments,
Joe

the Hero will LITERALLY get ante'd down to the felt if he continues to play this way...

I would also like to hear more about this. I open with a T-door later on in the vid that I feel should be a clear fold, and I start the video off w/my hole cards paired. I make a tight fold (and Chuck even comments on that) early on in the vid but the game was very aggressive and you will see in that hand the Ace competes and the 3 raises which is standard in these games. Plus, I make some loose peels on 4th (which I think SGSpecial is a fan of in these games) so I would really like you to post some hands so we could discuss.

But I guess I agree, I will be ante'd to death if I get QJ3 and KJK, etc, was that what you were referring to?

Thanks,
Joe

I'll take anteing away vs. spewing it away. We really got almost nothing close to a playable hand, we were very aggro with steals when we could be. I would also be interested in hearing the hands you felt Joe didn't play well as nobody likes busting up Joe more than I do.

Also - was that what the Dr. Razz comments were? We just agreed Razz is a goofy game and in no way criticized another coach from another site. 100% did not.

Any good or not, I'm not to decide.

Still appreciate that there are vids about the 'other games', and I decided to try play some Razz. (I only play Razz in HORSE and am clueless about how to play it)

After a while I encountered the next possible 'King doorcard defense' situation, sorry I had troubles with the handconverter.

PokerStars Game #18836758270: Razz Limit ($3/$6) - 2008/07/15 - 10:52:44 (ET)
Table 'Saskia' 8-max
Seat 1: donrudo ($113.50 in chips)
Seat 2: AAAAA ($75.50 in chips)
Seat 4: BBBBB ($232 in chips)
Seat 5: CCCCC ($84 in chips)
Seat 6: DDDDD ($84.75 in chips)
Seat 7: EEEEE ($128 in chips)
Seat 8: villain ($125.25 in chips)

all 7 players post the ante $0.25

*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd]
Dealt to AAAAA [As]
Dealt to BBBBB [Qh]
Dealt to CCCCC [6c]
Dealt to DDDDD [2s]
Dealt to EEEEE [Jh]
Dealt to villain [6h]

donrudo: brings in for $1
all fold
villain: raises $2 to $3
donrudo: calls $2

*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd] [6s]
Dealt to villain [6h] [Ts]
villain: bets $3
donrudo: calls $3

*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s] [9h]
Dealt to villain [6h Ts] [7d]
villain: bets $6
donrudo: calls $6

*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h] [6d]
Dealt to villain [6h Ts 7d] [2h]
villain: bets $6
donrudo: calls $6

*** RIVER ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h 6d] [Ah]
villain said, "call"
villain said, "i've got a boat"
villain said, "no you dont"
Donrudo said, "beat 9?"
villain said, "we'll see"
villain has timed out
villain: folds
villain is sitting out
villain has returned
donrudo collected $36.75 from pot
villain said, "what"
villain said, "the"
donrudo: shows [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h 6d Ah] (Lo: K,9,6,5,A)
villain said, "FU.CK"

Riverchat posted for comedy value.
Villain said to have had an 8-low, I claimed he must have started with a pair or rolled trips and filled up on the river. Hilarity ensued.

Street-by-street thoughts:
3rd street villain is in perfect steal position and has been aggressive.
He could have 'any 3', pot odds are almost 3 to 2 where my hot-and-cold equity against a random hand with 6 doorcard is 42%. Standard defense?

4th I catch a very good card, but opponent doesnt totally brick. Against random I am now actually the favourite, but dont dare raising because he -could- have a real hand. Right?

5th I catch a draw to a nine, where opponent gets a seven. He could be on a Ten-low draw, but I am not sure. I decided to just call because I couldnt decide what to do best. What to do, think I should have mucked here, right?

6th I brick, opponent gets a deuce. Here i lack the discipline to fold, and basically hope to catch a 9low which then may or may not be good. A clear fold here?

7th muhahahah. Still wonder what my opponent held. Bluffing the river in a $3/6 game has no chance at all, does it? Have you ever seen this kind of 'expert laydowns' for 1 more bet at these stakes, or at higher stakes?

btw, later on in the game all players folded to my King doorcard. I like!

By the way, I do not have "Sklansky on Razz" and have never read anything on Razz in my life nor did I know this book existed.

You are kidding, are you? Otherwise you should strongly consider grabbing a copy. Worth reading.

You are kidding, are you? Otherwise you should strongly consider grabbing a copy. Worth reading.

I am not kidding, I just ordered it, can't wait. I doubt it will change how I feel about the game overall (the pain that it gives me) but it should be great for me to read.

As for that hand history, first http://www.alliance-x.com/stud_converter.html, and in the Stars structure where the ante should be .50 there, fold 3rd.

7 Day free trial, imo.

well played sir.

well played.

*goes off to sign up for the 7day free trial*

Very interesting comments here. It just goes to show you what Razz does to people. It's the cards version of chinese water torture. But I think that is what can potentially make this type of game juicy. You simply capitalize on the mistakes others make when they tilt. You actually do pretty much play your cards probably moreso than any other game. Even with all the mistakes I do see others make especially at the level I primarily play ($1/$2) this game still can tilt the hell out of me.

Joe, I did hate to see you get beat up by a couple of people in previous comments but I will sympathize w/the sentiment that I would really enjoy watching some Razz vids from someone that is a Razz specialist. You are no doubt a very gifted mixed game specialist but even to your own admission are not a Razz specialist. You of course are much better than I but I would love to hear what your thoughts are after reading Sklansky's Razz book and the new 'Play Razz Poker to Win' which I found a very interesting book and also very helpful. Had some interesting info on defending as well. The rule of 2 I found to be a good rule when defending. Also lot of good calcs on best made hand vs. best drawing hand in the book. Still trying to wrap my head around it to make some sense out of it.

With your Stud game knowledge, ability to read dead cards and apply that knowledge, you are only a breadth away from being the new Dr. Razz. lol. Seriously, I don't want to jump on the beat Joe up bandwagon, I'm just trying to help reconcile the frustrations some people may feel in watching this vid. I could be way off base in my assesment. I personally will always value your input and will always watch with enthusiasm the vids you post.

PS - My biggest weakness is remembering the dead cards. I'm way too ADHD. Will continue to work on that. I loved the calcs you did on the 643 vs/A53 w/2 6's dead. You 4-bet me w/what?

Street-by-street thoughts:
3rd street villain is in perfect steal position and has been aggressive.
He could have 'any 3', pot odds are almost 3 to 2 where my hot-and-cold equity against a random hand with 6 doorcard is 42%. Standard defense?

Awesome sir.

4th I catch a very good card, but opponent doesnt totally brick. Against random I am now actually the favourite, but dont dare raising because he -could- have a real hand. Right?

I'm with you thus far. You are still playing your hand face up.

5th I catch a draw to a nine, where opponent gets a seven. He could be on a Ten-low draw, but I am not sure. I decided to just call because I couldnt decide what to do best. What to do, think I should have mucked here, right?

He could have a made ten but probably not.

6th I brick, opponent gets a deuce. Here i lack the discipline to fold, and basically hope to catch a 9low which then may or may not be good. A clear fold here?

I think you can find a fold here. This is where a read on your opponent may be helpful. Also, if you had followed the dead cards you would know that his six is not paired and the 2 on 6th is not likely paired. Would love to get Joe's feedback on how the deadcards would determine his action on this and the subsequent streets.

7th muhahahah. Still wonder what my opponent held. Bluffing the river in a $3/6 game has no chance at all, does it? Have you ever seen this kind of 'expert laydowns' for 1 more bet at these stakes, or at higher stakes?

Coming from NL I'm still trying to get used to the idea of 'never folding' on 7th. Of course I'm sure there are times you should and this is probably one of those times. You would be getting 7:1 Is your K high good that often? If you run the hand through the simulator you get the following
dead cards - AQ62J
your hand - 5AK696A - 2.32% jumps to a wopping 2.69% w/o dead card info.
villains hand - **6T72* - 97.68%
Basically you would need odds of 49:1 to make the call. Honestly, before I did the computation I thought the K high might not have been that bad of a call but it actually shows to be down right ugly. hmmmmmm. Thanks for posting this hand Elrudo!

btw, later on in the game all players folded to my King doorcard. I like!

And of course for meta game purposes the implied odds are priceless.

I'm not sure if anyone is even going to watch this cause it's Razz, tbh. But maybe we could chat a bit, Chuck, I dunno.

I'm quite the razz fan, Joe. Definitely enjoyed your whole other "From Donk 2 Stud" series.

Is there going to be a 2-7 tripple draw vid in this series, or are you just sticking to HORSE games?

6th I brick, opponent gets a deuce. Here i lack the discipline to fold, and basically hope to catch a 9low which then may or may not be good. A clear fold here?

I think you can find a fold here. This is where a read on your opponent may be helpful. Also, if you had followed the dead cards you would know that his six is not paired and the 2 on 6th is not likely paired. Would love to get Joe's feedback on how the deadcards would determine his action on this and the subsequent streets.

He definitely has to fold 5th and yes, 6th is a must. On 4th he caught perfect but it got ugly fast after that.

Is there going to be a 2-7 tripple draw vid in this series, or are you just sticking to HORSE games?

This Series: All Mixed Up

Joe Tall and danzasmack team up for a live-play continuation of Season One's 'From a Donk to a Stud'. They will play Omaha Hi/Low, Razz, Stud Hi and Stud Hi/Low over the series as they take turns sweating each other in mid-stakes online games. Joe will concentrate on short-handed play while Chuck will play mostly full ring games.

Really beat on DeathDonkey for 2-7TD, he's got a WSOP cash in the game, he's the man there!

I am not kidding, I just ordered it, can't wait. I doubt it will change how I feel about the game overall (the pain that it gives me) but it should be great for me to read.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/joetall/IMG_7066.jpg

Ohhhh, it's ON NOW! WATCH OUT!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/joetall/IMG_7066.jpg

Ohhhh, it's ON NOW! WATCH OUT!

LMAO! The shit is on!

@ 9min15sec into the video you have an optimal extended steal opp. I know you and Chuck were chattin' at the time and maybe didn't see it. Was this the case or was there another consideration. You only had to fade 1 eight and you had the 4 in the door. Ok I'm back to watching.

Yeah, I agree, it's pretty clear to me that I auto-clicked w/o looking, as we were deep in discussion.

i agree, i understand there were some sticky spots where u had to make some folds and u definitely ran poorly throughout the video, but there were some insanely tight folds i thought that you guys made. i agree with jkwizzle on reading that book, and i also feel like there are more hands you couldve played throughout the video. i do enjoy the other stud and hi/lo games.

Time Link to 00:24:11

I think you fail to realize that he would and prob. should raise your 9T hand w/ a 8 draw to put you in awful spots later, plus he will prob. improve to a made 8 at least half the time and you have to hit perfect twice to make a hand better than a 9. Seems like a very straight forward spot to me, and for you to miss it makes me question why you are playing in games this big. I think his mistake was not betting that 8 even if he paired it(which i am like 99% sure he did,) but he obv. checked it behind because he has a draw to a better hand than your more than likely (from his perspective) made 9. If there was anything to gauge from this hand its that he views you as a station and that is why he didn't bet. The reason i say this is because you r/r pre and he could/should be putting a 3 in your pairing range since there hasn't been any 3s out yet.

not to be rude, but you guys just seemed lost in that hand explanation. seems very obv. you have a made T9 w/ a very smooth 9 draw, he has a 8 draw. I am not a math whiz but i think he is around a 57% fav. w/ a 8 draw over your made T9 w/ a 9 draw. The morale of the story is, a dirty 87662 vs your 2459T (or whatever) is a fav.

Time Link to 00:45:49

this is extremely funny here....this whole casino seq. of events made me literally LOL......"did ya pair your toe"

not to be rude, but you guys just seemed lost in that hand explanation. seems very obv. you have a made T9 w/ a very smooth 9 draw, he has a 8 draw. I am not a math whiz but i think he is around a 57% fav. w/ a 8 draw over your made T9 w/ a 9 draw. The morale of the story is, a dirty 87662 vs your 2459T (or whatever) is a fav.

I think we are talking about 6th street when I make the wheel draw.

I think we are talking about 6th street when I make the wheel draw.

not possible because nothing interesting happened on 6th other than him checking back which as i stated prior meant he paired his 8 (which is what you had thought later, good read by you). You checked 6th and he checked behind for a free draw.

this is extremely funny here....this whole casino seq. of events made me literally LOL......"did ya pair your toe"

Hi Joe,

If you enjoyed the banter that Chuck delivers, you might like our mix-game podcast, Hey Ball!

http://www.deucescracked.com/podcasts

These videos are over a year old, I told Chuck he should check out your replies, they are great.

Welcome to DeucesCracked,
Joe

Thanks joe,
I will check it out. I have been a member of Cardrunners for like 3.5 year or so and have recently heard that DC is prob. hands down the best site for HU content. So thus far i am really enjoying it. I just got done watch 2 of your HU horse vids and enjoyed the action in those. I really like what i see here, though i feel it is a little tough looking through the video database as compared to CR. I also really like the massive amount of content that DC has vs all other sites i have been too in relation to mixed games and odd ball games.

I have some comments on some other spots in the razz vids you did and would be curious as to what you think.I am very critical on some spots here in there in the games i feel very aware in which is razz and 2-7TD lowball.

thanks for taking the time to respond, and gl at the tables.


joe

not possible because nothing interesting happened on 6th other than him checking back which as i stated prior meant he paired his 8 (which is what you had thought later, good read by you). You checked 6th and he checked behind for a free draw.

Yeah, this whole sequence confused the hell out of me too, because I'm pretty sure Chuck says explicitly that he's talking about 5th street when it went bet/raise/call.

My best guess is: Joe just made a mistake to bet his 9-draw on 5th, and the opponent correctly raised his presumptive 8-draw. After the hand, Chuck was correct to say 5th, but then as they looked at the cards they both started thinking the 5th street action had happened on 6th.

No worries, we all make mistakes, but this is probably what jkwizzle1 was thinking of (but wouldn't clarify). I know videos are time-consuming to make, but IMO a 30-minute video with careful editing can be more valuable than a 60-minute vid with a lot of confusion.

Still glad to have mixed-game content in the archive, two years after the fact.

Wow, more paint than a hardware store.

New to Razz. Found this (and your other Razz vids) useful.

The spots where you gambled it up and made a play you wouldn't recommend were clearly indicated and I didn't feel they took anything away from the training content.

Lots of solid advice, as always, with you two guys.

I've always thought vids where the coach runs bad are just as useful as the ones where he's crushing. Good to know it's not just me that sits at a Razz table and gets junk hand after hand.

They say learning other games helps all your games. PLO has taught me a fair bit about position. Limit Hold'em has got me value betting thinner. Razz is teaching me plenty about patience and not trying to force it when the cards aren't in the mood.

Thanks.