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Poker Video: Omaha/Omaha 8 by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

lets start learning

gj

Oh man i was super tilted when u couldnt read the board !!! Aaaaggghhhhh!!!

Nice, finally some 08 vids. "Welcome to 08 folks" JT says when they repeatedly get counterfeited and double counterfeited lol. You guys ran like crap in this vid! I like how you make disciplined folds when you get counterfeited on the river (a situation where I had hard time letting go of good hands that just got crushed on the river).


That AA3x hand early on where the flop was 25x giving you an overpair and nut low draw(where you get donked into by A4 and get rivered). With a 3rd guy in the pot, do you ever think you will scoop with a high of AA? I made a thread a while back in the mixed game forum where I said that AA2 and AA3 hands usually scoop by hitting the nut low and a flush (or wheel), rather than scooping with just AA for top pair with nut low. I feel like someone always has atleast 2 pair or more and the value of having AA2x AA3x is so much better when they are suited. What do you guys think? How often do you actually scoop with the nut low but a high of just AA?


As the hand played out, the donker hit the wheel on the river, but the player to your right had 2 pair on the flop. Sweet vid, keep them coming guys!

this game is weird

lol 11 minutes in! learn to read the board you donks.

lol 11 minutes in! learn to read the board you donks.

Man, it's not easy trying to make a vid, talk to someone else, and play, etc!

Good times joe.

Nice, finally some 08 vids. "Welcome to 08 folks" JT says when they repeatedly get counterfeited and double counterfeited lol. You guys ran like crap in this vid! I like how you make disciplined folds when you get counterfeited on the river (a situation where I had hard time letting go of good hands that just got crushed on the river).


That AA3x hand early on where the flop was 25x giving you an overpair and nut low draw(where you get donked into by A4 and get rivered). With a 3rd guy in the pot, do you ever think you will scoop with a high of AA? I made a thread a while back in the mixed game forum where I said that AA2 and AA3 hands usually scoop by hitting the nut low and a flush (or wheel), rather than scooping with just AA for top pair with nut low. I feel like someone always has atleast 2 pair or more and the value of having AA2x AA3x is so much better when they are suited. What do you guys think? How often do you actually scoop with the nut low but a high of just AA?


As the hand played out, the donker hit the wheel on the river, but the player to your right had 2 pair on the flop. Sweet vid, keep them coming guys!

AA-hands are still good in Omaha-8 but:

1. Yes, they are much stronger when they have wheel cards w/them.
2. They are monsters w/suited wheel cards.
3. They are going to play much better for high when you can get it HU.
4. Position is really important to get HU.

So be careful with naked-AA(mid)off-suit hands, they should be folded in EP in most games preflop.

Joe and Chuck are comic gold. The poker content is great here for the O8 players among us, but the laughs made this video a must watch.

Great vid. Like the shorthanded play content a lot. There is hardly any videos like this anywhere.

"That AA3x hand early on where the flop was 25x giving you an overpair and nut low draw(where you get donked into by A4 and get rivered). With a 3rd guy in the pot, do you ever think you will scoop with a high of AA?"

Regardless of whether you think you are a favorite to scoop, you are an equity favorite vs any reasonable range for your opponents so flop jam is correct.

Joe and Chuck are comic gold.

+1

"That's PLO poop." - Joe Tall

Found myself talking to the video a bunch of times, obv during the board reading fiasco where I'm telling you what it is, but then when Joe didn't check raise when he hit the gutshot on the turn "I'm like check raise, right? for sure...huh?" then simultaneously with Chuck "You gotta check raise that!" Then it seemed like Chuck had to talk Joe into a river check raise when the low and flush got there, obv a better spot to just check call. I'm wondering if that's really not a standard play and why you'd want to just check call down on the turn. In the vid, Joe, you say you're just kind of a nit, I'm wondering if there is anything else worth talking about in that spot. pre-edit (I'm going to find the time stamp really quick)

Great video guys, for real. I'm really looking forward to the rest of series. I think it somehow adds value when you run bad and don't make the perfect plays in the moment, but realize your mistakes and break them down a little bit. Makes it more real for me maybe since that is what I end up doing a lot of the time.

Then it seemed like Chuck had to talk Joe into a river check raise when the low and flush got there, obv a better spot to just check call. I'm wondering if that's really not a standard play and why you'd want to just check call down on the turn. In the vid, Joe, you say you're just kind of a nit, I'm wondering if there is anything else worth talking about in that spot. pre-edit (I'm going to find the time stamp really quick)

Guess I didn't edit that in time.

The hand is at the 45:05 mark. I assume you didn't auto raise there since you didn't make the nut straight, but 4 handed and against a guy who, as Chuck put so eloquently it, probably peed his pants on the way to the laptop, it seems like a good spot.

Also, it never ceases to amaze me how straight up bad some of the play at those stakes can be.

-steve

Ipod version is busto. Paging Rob!

Me <3 DC! So much good content, I can't learn them all!

this is going to be the best series of the season for sure, good work!

Nice vid. You guys are natural teaching talents and have a good portion of humor to go with it.

I got a stats question

For small to midstakes 6max O8 what would be the likely stats of a strong winning player?

I am thinking of

vpip
pfr
atsb
fold bb to steal
fold sb to steal
wtsd/w$@sd


I am asking because for a veteran hold em player like myself I dont find postflop in O8 particular difficult to learn. Its still basic game theory in a "flop game". Preflop tho is very difficult for me to understand the dynamics. Do we coldcall, do we open limp, do we 3bet isolate less than say holdem. What hands can steal, what hands can defend a steal. Do we 3-bet in the SB vs steal, etc etc

One question:

I read in a book (fulltilt strategy guide) that in full ring, if you are in late position and its folded to you, you cant steal with high cards, because if everybody folded, its very possible they all had high cards and the flop is going to be low for sure. By the same token, if you have a hand like 23xx or 24xx in late position and it's folded to you, its a monster hand because probably most aces are live and you are going to see one in the flop.

What do you think? Do you think that can be applied to shorthanded O8? I ask that because i see you are stealing veeeery liberally, while that mike matusow section advocates very very rarely trying to steal blinds in O8.

Great video. Looking forward to the next one.

Ipod version is busto. Paging Rob!

Something strange has been going on with our iPod vids as of late -- I reproduced this one, let me know if you guys have issues with it still. I'll try on my iPod but it'll be a few days before I'm around full time again.

Rob

Rob. I'm getting a strange message that this vid won't play on my ipod. Its happening with the two most recently (7/5) posted videos as well. Strange indeed.

One question regarding the hand where you flop the full house: When you start your analysis with the simulator you say shutting down when the king hit on the turn was correct, but wasn't that terribly weak? Shouldn't you at least raise, particularly against a player as bad as DigitalTech?

One question:

I read in a book (fulltilt strategy guide) that in full ring, if you are in late position and its folded to you, you cant steal with high cards, because if everybody folded, its very possible they all had high cards and the flop is going to be low for sure. By the same token, if you have a hand like 23xx or 24xx in late position and it's folded to you, its a monster hand because probably most aces are live and you are going to see one in the flop.

What do you think? Do you think that can be applied to shorthanded O8? I ask that because i see you are stealing veeeery liberally, while that mike matusow section advocates very very rarely trying to steal blinds in O8.

I am curious about this as well, even though I have ordered but not read the FT Strategy Guide yet. It reminds me of similar observations by Barry Greenstein in holdem about card bunching effects based on simulations (Ace on the River, p.150). I would imagine that with players receiving 4 cards in O8, these effects would be more likely to manifest in a 9-10 handed game, particularly with weaker opponents who are less selective about what kinds of Axxx hands they play.

One question regarding the hand where you flop the full house: When you start your analysis with the simulator you say shutting down when the king hit on the turn was correct, but wasn't that terribly weak? Shouldn't you at least raise, particularly against a player as bad as DigitalTech?

Against that type of player, it is closer to a raise. However, never think of your play in O8 as "terribly weak", you be getting 3-bet and shown the nuts very often thinking like this when you get HU.

I am curious about this as well, even though I have ordered but not read the FT Strategy Guide yet. It reminds me of similar observations by Barry Greenstein in holdem about card bunching effects based on simulations (Ace on the River, p.150). I would imagine that with players receiving 4 cards in O8, these effects would be more likely to manifest in a 9-10 handed game, particularly with weaker opponents who are less selective about what kinds of Axxx hands they play.

It's fairly plausible to think like this but you still have the button and if are seat selecting well, should be raising tight players on your right. I can see this thought process for a full 10 handed game but it not coming into play in a shorthanded game.

Joe T,
Great vid, hopefully you can get another LO8 6max video for this season. 6max LO8 has very little published info and it plays way different than the 9/10 handed games that books are based on.

Specific situations:

1. How wide do we open button given stats we have on villains from PTO. Common lines you'd take F/T/R
2. Blind vs blind battles .... say you get in a raising war preflop and we flop maybe 2nd/2nd or 3rd/3rd, how do we go about calculating if the pot is big enough to just go into calldown mode to the river if SB is leading or vice versa, how hard do we pound from the BB if they keep checking.

I'm sure you could crop out just the above 2 situations from a session and turn it into a great 1 hour video of hand review

I know you guys are both good poker players, and your other videos are good, but I think you are overestimating your skill at 08. The AQJ5 hand where you gave so many bets is abysmal, the hand should not be bet/raised against nadremark in any spot! Betting the flop is marginally wrong but debateable and betting turn is not good at all. You are either against a low or likely a huge draw against you or better two pair. He's never folding anything on the turn, so you are just spewing money. When he bets the river, a raise is reasonable, but doing an equity analysis of what he could hold, you would quickly see raising is wrong - not gonna go into it here. Capping is lol bad. You have absolutely no reason to take him off AT. Raising KJ55 on the button is never ok - justifying it cause you passed your last button, c'mon. It's way way way bad. The AK28 hand where you flop top 2, the flop should be an auto raise and considering folding the river is unreal. Any hand that beats you should want to c/r that flop, so his donk (coupled w/ the speed of the bet) should be a sign of weakness. You can't fold.

I actually heard someone say two times that you want to have 23xx when lots of aces are out, when obviously the reverse is true. You want the aces to be live so you flop the nut low (draw). Thats like omaha 101. The monstrous errors go on and on and on. All that said, you guys are entertaining.

Leave the time stamps! I would say O8 is my weakest game out of the mix but I fair well and would love to discuss these hands. If I can get a chance to watch this video too, I will. I did reply to your other comments.

Thanks for the feedback!

I question the play on the flop of AKQ with your AK82. There was a bet and a player to act behind you. You elected to just call. I think you have to raise for a couple of reasons.
1. If you get capped you have a better idea of where you stand. You can pretty much assume you're up against a set or a straight.
2. You need to raise so that the opponent behind you doesn't call with an AKxx himself or with stronger backdoors than you. It also helps your chances of winning the low in case you backdoor into your 82.

I question the play on the flop of AKQ with your AK82. There was a bet and a player to act behind you. You elected to just call. I think you have to raise for a couple of reasons.
1. If you get capped you have a better idea of where you stand. You can pretty much assume you're up against a set or a straight.
2. You need to raise so that the opponent behind you doesn't call with an AKxx himself or with stronger backdoors than you. It also helps your chances of winning the low in case you backdoor into your 82.

Please leave a time-stamp or better yet, Watch this short video, and leave a time link!

That will be much easier to find the hand and answer your questions, thanks.

Time Link to 00:13:28

Sure...here it is.

Time Link to 00:24:06

For what it's worth, Choirdrunk led the flop with a double-gutter for high in addition to his crap top pair. Not sure how much value is in that bet with a low and two-flush on the board. (Nice when you spike a backdoor wheel, though, isn't it?)

I question the play on the flop of AKQ with your AK82. There was a bet and a player to act behind you. You elected to just call. I think you have to raise for a couple of reasons.
1. If you get capped you have a better idea of where you stand. You can pretty much assume you're up against a set or a straight.
2. You need to raise so that the opponent behind you doesn't call with an AKxx himself or with stronger backdoors than you. It also helps your chances of winning the low in case you backdoor into your 82.

Very interesting comment. I try to throw in these tactical raises, but I'm pretty sure I'm doing them in the wrong spots.

I'd like to think about this comment in more detail, but in the interest of brevity I'll stick to one point at a time. (1)"If you get capped you have a better idea of where you stand." - no doubt. If it gets HU, would it ever be in your opponent's interest not to 3-bet to conceal that information?

(Given that he still has to play the turn OOP, so he has to either donk the turn or risk getting it checked back, my inclination is no, he pretty much has to three-bet Broadway there. A set, I'm not sure about; he probably wants a cheap draw too, not expecting to get raised by two pair.)

Time Link to 00:53:14

The reason changing nines to eights doesn't change our equity is because any board where we make a backdoor low is one where he didn't fill up anyway.

Very interesting comment. I try to throw in these tactical raises, but I'm pretty sure I'm doing them in the wrong spots.

I'd like to think about this comment in more detail, but in the interest of brevity I'll stick to one point at a time. (1)"If you get capped you have a better idea of where you stand." - no doubt. If it gets HU, would it ever be in your opponent's interest not to 3-bet to conceal that information?

(Given that he still has to play the turn OOP, so he has to either donk the turn or risk getting it checked back, my inclination is no, he pretty much has to three-bet Broadway there. A set, I'm not sure about; he probably wants a cheap draw too, not expecting to get raised by two pair.)

Generally I'm raising my sets in this spot (but not always) and not going to raise AK here.

Re: cleaning up backdoors - when the player folds not all of the equity in say a superior backdoor hand is ours. HUHU we're still like a 70/30 dog to the donker vs. a tight (which Joe and I assumed the range was @ the time) range.

I also don't really see the point to putting in bets to "see where we stand". Sure, we occasionally are sacrificing SOME value to AQ/KQ but it's the presence of those hands in the villain's range that make a call down ok, not make it ok enough to raise.

Now, if the donking range contained any Ax and a bunch more hands a raise is clearly superior.

Time Link to 00:11:23

Coming from a PLO background I'm still not 100% sure why you attacked such a wet board. If he either has high or low wouldn't a 66Kr or J94r board be better to attack as it's much drier so less hands will hit it? Or is it that your lead looks very strong on JT8ss so will be folding T965/8432/AKT2 etc?

I would probably c/f that flop given all those hands you mentioned have to peel. JTT or something like that I love to stab on with 0 equity.

That being said I have no reads ATM - a lot of nits will pitch a ton of peelable hands on that flop and those guys are really good to look out for in your games. I wouldn't put it past Joe to have a read there.

A lot of it also depends on the button raising range. Many people will be folding or lipmping the T965 otb (I might too depending on the blinds) so they are less likely to hit that board.