Episode Eight

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Episode Eight

FWF and KRANTZ use all the knowledge put together from previous episodes to analyze a brain-busting river checkraise in the exciting conclusion to Remember the Railbirds.

tags: krantz foxwoodsfiend high stakes huhu heads up no limit tie53 nosebleed remember the railbirds

This Series: Remember the Railbirds

300/600NL Heads Up. Tie53 vs DaEvils. FoxwoodsFiend and KRANTZ. When Ariel played Tie53 last year over the course of several epic sessions, the railbird in us was present in full force, hole-card camera in hand. Explore the nuances of super high-stakes heads up play as two of the top NLHE players in the world pick each others brains and over the course of the season analyze 2007's heads up slugfest against this mysterious opponent.

Previous Video: Episode Seven

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Comments for Episode Eight

maliante
Deuce High
11 posts
Joined 03/08

ship ship, krantz & FWF baby!! Very entertaining serie!

Posted Aug 18, 2008 12:10pm

Dislexsik
Deuce High
55 posts
Joined 06/08

Monday fix!

Posted Aug 18, 2008 12:10pm

pumpui
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 07/08

hmm no download links and the stream is only about 2min long?

Posted Aug 18, 2008 12:28pm

damanrico
Deuce High
23 posts
Joined 05/08

hmm no download links and the stream is only about 2min long?



Log in.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 12:29pm

pumpui
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 07/08

Sorry, but your Premium Membership expired 2 days ago.

lol ok

Posted Aug 18, 2008 12:38pm

Hielko
Quad Deuces
1122 posts
Joined 07/08

I loved this series, certainly one of the best ever.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 1:18pm

bizIsAg33k
Deuce High
11 posts
Joined 05/08

Monday fix!

Posted Aug 18, 2008 1:51pm

RuffRhyder
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 02/08

Great series! Thx. On the last c/r ai hand: Why do you keep saying that if a guy who has never bluffed in this spot before is repping A5/56, he could be repping so many other hands? I don't get that statement. Another thing, should the fact that he's tanking before c/r ai on the river be a factor in your decision?

Posted Aug 18, 2008 2:02pm

KRANTZ
Founder
Quad Deuces
1193 posts
Joined 07/07

Great series! Thx. On the last c/r ai hand: Why do you keep saying that if a guy who has never bluffed in this spot before is repping A5/56, he could be repping so many other hands? I don't get that statement. Another thing, should the fact that he's tanking before c/r ai on the river be a factor in your decision?



Listen to the audio again? We rule out all the other hands he can have.

The timing is an interesting point. It's only a factor if we have reason to believe it should be - like we've noticed a difference in his timing in other big pots. But that was the only situation where a line like this came up, so I don't think you can really think too much about it. Sometimes when players tank they're faking, or they're thinking about the best c/r size and can't come to a quick decision.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 3:16pm

Dead-Inside
Deuce High
33 posts
Joined 05/08

Just wow, best series ever. Don't really mind watching Ariel play 200/400 on my other screen while watching this either. "From now on all 4bets are all in!"

Posted Aug 18, 2008 4:13pm

Mike4583
Deuce High
8 posts
Joined 01/08

The end of the greatest video series ive ever seen, that series was worth 6 months membership alone.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 4:29pm

planB
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 05/08

I had to get reanimated after that QQ hand

Posted Aug 18, 2008 5:40pm

snider
Deuce High
13 posts
Joined 01/08

I find myself using the words "spoiler alert" in my everyday vernacular.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 6:25pm

tamere10
Set of Deuces
279 posts
Joined 07/08

spoiler alert???? what does that suppose to mean



congrats on the win ~~foxwoodf

Posted Aug 18, 2008 7:05pm

actionjacson
Deuce High
23 posts
Joined 03/08

god that k 10 hand was soooooo sick

Posted Aug 18, 2008 7:58pm

Jmood1
Deuce High
5 posts
Joined 05/08

Queens hand was brutal

Posted Aug 18, 2008 8:43pm

EvilSky
Deuce High
51 posts
Joined 01/08

Oh man, I dont know how you can take so many beats and keep going, after that QQ hand my monitor would have been smashed or Id call it for the day at least.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 9:15pm

TianYuan
Deuce High
28 posts
Joined 12/07

Not done watching the video but I think he made a 4bet before the QQ hand, incidently, it was right after you lost a big pot and made a light 3bet.

I think. Not really significant but I think you said it was the first time he 4bet.
EDIT: Ah actually maybe that was towards the end of ep 7.. So maybe it was longer ago in the session than I thought.
The QQ vs JJ hand, ouch.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 9:25pm

violtu
Pair of Deuces
108 posts
Joined 07/08

QQ hand...
I would insta quit poker for life after that hand asuming i had >70% of my own action.
Or go to nosebleed stakes to chase losses... oh wait... Yeah i would quit poker.
FWF is inhuman for being able to continue play.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 9:38pm

ktg37
Deuce High
8 posts
Joined 03/08

Maybe I missed it in the video, but didn't tie53 leave in the last video. How did you manage to get him on another 2 tables?

Posted Aug 18, 2008 9:46pm

pumpui
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 07/08

awesome series, just one question, how much did u end up winning? i missed that

Posted Aug 18, 2008 10:23pm

pkr_brat
Deuces Full
605 posts
Joined 01/08

Id like to know the final results to. I think you ended it up including that sick QQ hand and how you can push that amount aside rebuy and play again amazes me. sick sick player. Will be missed next season.

Posted Aug 18, 2008 10:27pm

ceavou
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 06/08

I think they said FWF finished up around 250k overall on Tie.

Great series overall guys. The analysis on the KT hand was amazing, really learned some stuff there even though I knew and understood different parts of the analysis individually brining it all together to rationalize the call was very insightful.

Posted Aug 19, 2008 2:34am

deuces_wild
Pair of Deuces
162 posts
Joined 07/08

Id like to know the final results to. I think you ended it up including that sick QQ hand and how you can push that amount aside rebuy and play again amazes me. sick sick player. Will be missed next season.



What you mean missed next season? FWF stop making vids?

Posted Aug 19, 2008 4:49am

disko
Deuce High
10 posts
Joined 01/08

Legendary.

Posted Aug 19, 2008 8:32am

gring000h
Deuces Full
633 posts
Joined 03/08

awesome, but how in the world were you able to continue playing after that Jack hit the river...!?

Posted Aug 19, 2008 12:26pm

RuffRhyder
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 02/08

Listen to the audio again? We rule out all the other hands he can have.

The timing is an interesting point. It's only a factor if we have reason to believe it should be - like we've noticed a difference in his timing in other big pots. But that was the only situation where a line like this came up, so I don't think you can really think too much about it. Sometimes when players tank they're faking, or they're thinking about the best c/r size and can't come to a quick decision.



Sorry, I wrote that poorly. I think what FWF kept repeating is that the fact that he's repping 56/A6 means could have so many other hands (i.e. bluffs). Is this just saying the likelyhood that he decides to bluff raise the flop with those hands and then randomly hit on the river is so smalll, that a call is good? Obv. combined with the fact that you don't think he'd be playing KQ/22 like that very often.

Posted Aug 19, 2008 5:04pm

RuffRhyder
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 02/08

Oh, and the timing thing. Yeah, it could definitely be faking, but I guess we haven't seen him do that either. It shouldn't really be that hard to figure out the correct c/r size in this spot and he would normally have decided to c/r with a strong hand before FWF bets the river and would do it in tempo most times I would think. In this spot it just feels like he was surprised by the large river bet and started to think about doing something fancy. Obv. I don't play this stakes, but that makes the most sense to me.

Posted Aug 19, 2008 5:13pm

sagehens
Deuce High
5 posts
Joined 07/08

I believe he means that if his range for CR the flop includes a5 and 56 then it contains A LOT of other air type hands. In fact, there are so many other hands that if only 1 out of 10 decides to CR bluff the river then it is a profitable call vs his range. Hope that helps.

Posted Aug 19, 2008 5:30pm

RuffRhyder
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 02/08

Yeah, makes sense. Thx

Posted Aug 19, 2008 5:44pm

LouPinella
Deuce High
59 posts
Joined 01/08

Krantz, I am officially putting you on a performance plan due to FWF not making a series next season. ;-)

That was a great series, job well done by both of you and the back end editing team.

xoxo,

LP

Posted Aug 19, 2008 6:42pm

jimike
Deuce High
8 posts
Joined 05/08

Genius series guys.

Posted Aug 20, 2008 4:45am

audikid
Deuce High
11 posts
Joined 04/08

epic

unreal level of thinking on the crai hand. nice job fwf

Posted Aug 20, 2008 11:45pm

FoxwoodsFiend
Exec Producer
Pair of Deuces
137 posts
Joined 10/07

I believe he means that if his range for CR the flop includes a5 and 56 then it contains A LOT of other air type hands. In fact, there are so many other hands that if only 1 out of 10 decides to CR bluff the river then it is a profitable call vs his range. Hope that helps.



this is it. heavily discount flopped made hands because of the turn action then add the wide range he has to have to c/r flop if he rivered a straight (if he c/r 56 or A5 then why not A7 or 78?)

Posted Aug 21, 2008 3:55am

NoWayFolding
Deuce High
96 posts
Joined 03/08

You say tie makes a bad 4bet with jacks, and state the reason he is essentially turning his hand into a bluff.
I agree with that - but does that make ties play bad?

If his range is super polarised and he knows you realise that, surely he can merge his range to get more value from you when you have a bluff catcher and he suspects you do not believe him. Obviously QQ is the top of your "bluff catchers" but you are still in the same situation if you have a pocket pair here. Lets say if you have 66-TT, this situation is the same.
Therefore if he realises that and believes you are likely to get it in with that range JJ helds up quite well vs your bluff catchers (just happens to be the fact QQ was the top of your bluff catching range).

So if we have 77 here are we playing it the same way as the QQ hand. If so why? If not why?
Same with AK, or big Ax type hands.

Also is merging your range preflop bad in this spot for tie, and in which spots should you be merging your ranges, if your opponent believes you have a polarised range.

Posted Aug 21, 2008 9:44am

KRANTZ
Founder
Quad Deuces
1193 posts
Joined 07/07

You say tie makes a bad 4bet with jacks, and state the reason he is essentially turning his hand into a bluff.
I agree with that - but does that make ties play bad?

If his range is super polarised and he knows you realise that, surely he can merge his range to get more value from you when you have a bluff catcher and he suspects you do not believe him. Obviously QQ is the top of your "bluff catchers" but you are still in the same situation if you have a pocket pair here. Lets say if you have 66-TT, this situation is the same.
Therefore if he realises that and believes you are likely to get it in with that range JJ helds up quite well vs your bluff catchers (just happens to be the fact QQ was the top of your bluff catching range).

So if we have 77 here are we playing it the same way as the QQ hand. If so why? If not why?
Same with AK, or big Ax type hands.

Also is merging your range preflop bad in this spot for tie, and in which spots should you be merging your ranges, if your opponent believes you have a polarised range.



This is why I dislike the saying "merge your range" - it is misapplied constantly. This concept is more or less broken down to - value bet a hand in between the nuts and nothing where your hand is almost certainly better than his best bluff catcher. The problem here is the situation - we are almost never catching bluffs in a pot that he 4-bet, considering his 4-bet frequency and the board texture (this guy would have to be the biggest maniac with a super high 4-bet% for us to checkraise 77 on the flop in order to induce some kind of crazy spew shove, and even that line would be less profitable than just turning our hand into a bluff preflop and 5-betting it).

He should not expect us to get all our money in with a hand <QQ on this flop, or even preflop, where if we did play 77 for a rr we would almost entirely be playing for set value and c/f-ing the flop (or c/c and c/f). In addition, he should expect us to fold most of the hands JJ has dominated to the 4-bet itself, preflop, therefore making the 4-bet much more profitable with a hand with no showdown value rather than one that plays so well in position vs an unbalanced reraising range (what FWF was employing at the time to success).

Basically, to answer your question directly, if we have 77, if we have AK, or Ax here, are we playing it the same? No, we wouldn't even have these hands here, because we would fold preflop, so the range with which we do get it in postflop is going to be super strong, where QQ is at the bottom end of that range, so if he "merged his range" (still doesn't make sense when talking about the hand because he isn't value betting postflop, he is 4-betting preflop in a spot where he should have a super polarized range weighted heavily to QQ+ and a few bluffs, and he should expect us to react to it in that way), he would just end up value-cutting himself every single time we don't just c/f the flop, like happened in the video.

Posted Aug 21, 2008 7:24pm

unclejim
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 07/08

Foxwood Fiend great coaching but saying "YOU KNOW" 350 a minute is extremely poor communication.

Posted Aug 27, 2008 8:36pm

richbrown
Deuce High
8 posts
Joined 09/08

OMG that KT hand is amazing, I never really thought about it like that. If hes repping A5 56 then his range is super wide with all kinds of hands like them so its an easier call. I know that was just a tiny part of the read but very insightful.

Posted Sep 30, 2008 8:16pm