Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:32:28

Results not withstanding, that is a terrible flop check/raise with 75 given how the opponent is playing.

Time Link to 00:45:25

Turn bet is bad with T9, this is a defensive check intending to show down, so take your free card. (Posted before looking at results, in case I look stupid. )

Edit: Don't forget he 3bet preflop this hand. So he's showing down basically his whole range on this board when he checks turn. No way you are getting a fold enough to invest 2 BB trying. Turn bet is really bad; it's actually a spot where a turn raise could be a viable bluff (against a different opponent with a wider 3bet range), but a turn bet after he checks is just lighting money on fire.

*****

Also, agree with Chuck that you shouldn't put two bets in on that river with A2. His turn raise is most likely a picked up draw and less likely a checked back 2x hand. So I like bet/folding the river.

Time Link to 00:46:51

Agree with Chuck, flop and turn play are both awful with Q6. I mean it's bad versus almost any opponent imo, but especially so against someone who is frequently checking back their air.

Overall, great video guys, you two work so well together. Generally agree with Chuck's comments that Joe's attitude of "Hey it's one more bet and it's limit holdem" on some of the big streets is costing him a bit. Overall, Joe, you play pretty well, but you seem to reach a point of the pot is big so I am going to stop hand reading and just play my cards. And from watching your mixed game videos, I know you know that's not right. I'm sure you could find some great laydowns in Stud or Stud/8 getting a great price just because you know exactly what your opponents have. That's why it is a bit surprising you don't seem to be focused more on doing the same when you play LHE.

Anyway, I mean that comment constructively. I've learned a ton from watching JoeTall videos -- even if I've only went from being a donk to slightly less of a donk when it comes to mixed games -- so I'm hoping that reiterating Chuck's point is a way of returning the favor a little bit.

Sweetjazz,

Not that I ever expect something else from you but awesome posts!

Time Link to 00:05:45

donkalicious spot.

Time Link to 00:24:03

I really dislike betting this turn after villain donks the flop and then checks a turn card that crushes his donking range (ie, he has a pair an epic ton). I take my free card.

Time Link to 00:27:46

Totally agree that TP+ is a value bet against this guy on a 4flush river.

Time Link to 00:29:44

Villain either has air or the nuts when he bets on this river, right? We've been saying that about him and I think it applies here too. I like just calling the rivered A.

Time Link to 00:31:09

He's been raising a variety of junk, not his premium hands, so I feel like we have 10 outs here more often than usual.

Time Link to 00:35:46

I would never do anything but call on this flop. I really don't see any reason to raise.

Why are we worried about FE here? He's never folding better on this board after 3betting pf. It would be a crime to let him fold his air on the flop here.

"We have good equity and position so who cares?" ... Saying something like this really does ourselves a disservice, imo.

I really think raising the flop is vbad.

Time Link to 00:37:45

villain ol the btn here, we raise BB with K Q and get raised on a 6 8 4.

Are we just peeling to improve here and fold the turn? The pot is only raised, not 3bet, so this is a pretty thin peel, imo.

Time Link to 00:42:36

I agree that I would not raise the turn here. On a 6 turn, we can prob just fold. He has a ton of 7x, 56, 53, 56.

I would never ever try and bluff this guy when he checks a river scare card after showing aggression in the hand. He is not folding better, we have seen this.

Chuck, you made a great point about being prepared for these spots and ready to bet as a bluff against a thinking opponent, but not against this guy.

Time Link to 00:47:55

any thoughts of checking the turn against this particular villain?

Time Link to 00:07:19

in the discussion of rivers you check back, i don't think you mentioned a K river, which I certainly wouldn't be betting.

Time Link to 00:11:51

i like the final conclusion of checking back this turn. Generally there's a fair amount of discussion in the vid of 'free showdown bet' but i feel in a lot of spots it's not the best way to look at the hand; here we can just as easily get to a 'free showdown' by putting in that BB on the river by checking back and calling a river lead with K high (as JT does in the hand), instead of betting the turn, and it ensures we don't get checkraised off our equity or even fold the better hand.

Time Link to 00:13:12

I don't follow DMs argument for 3betting the 22 preflop. What advantage of 3betting preflop to just calling and checkraising good boards? With 22, if memory serves, we have <50% equity vs a random hand unless we flop a 2 or it's a paired board; so on most boards, we don't really want to have the initiative as we cant be value-betting. We will have some fold equity but only vs. 6-outer hands, so there's likely to be more value in calling and inducing.

I realise this guy checks back some flops (more on that in a bit) so we can't always just checkcall and induce here, is that that the main reason why you like 3betting this preflop, or would you 3bet small PPs even vs a guy who cbets 100%?

Time Link to 00:24:08

again here not sure what a 'free showdown' type bet here on the turn achieves with our KT on J73-8 board. How is it superior to checking the turn and calling on the river, and raising if we hit a K or T? Same number of bets, plus we allow him to bluff, and we dont risk the checkraise, either resulting in us folding some equity (in this spot, as much as 14%) or putting in 2 BBs. A lot of the time I feel we have the opportunity to take a free card, as I think we are behind vs his range given the action.

[edit: you go on to say you dont like the free SDR so my point here may be mute but i will leave it up in case someone finds it useful ]

Time Link to 00:27:57

Really interesting hand here, good discussion. Its one of those OOP river spots that, even though you can't valuebet here in the classic sense that you expect to get called with >50% hands you beat, it is still better to bet here than to check call. The bet is going to go in better if you put it in than if you check call, even if the bet never goes in "good" for you. When you check you have to call with the pot odds you are getting, so you may as well put it in yourself.

The only time I would consider checkcall over bet folding is if I feel the opponent is bad enough to have enough air in his range here on the river to turn in to a bluff raise, or he is good/crazy enough to turn a pair in to a river bluff, either way putting us in a tricky spot when facing a riv raise. In this case i would err on checkcalling.

Time Link to 00:29:48

yeah i'm with JTs play here, I dont raise that river when we hit the ace. As you mention I would expect him to check any pair of 4s and maybe even a Q on that river, and if he checkraise bluffed the flop, he's very likely to still have air on the river, so there's little value in raising. You lose to backdoored flushes and 52, all better aces if he can have it, and of course 2pairs and sets, which we know he fastplays.

Time Link to 00:30:13

I'm really glad this flop donk discussion came up because it's something i've been discussing with other players and students recently. It's a common question, and I think a lot of players when playing an opponent who checks back takes one of 2 adjustments: 3bets more preflop, or starts donking flops.

For context, JT says he's going for the checkraise on this Q93r flop with J8, DM says you would donk this out 100% of the time, because he's "checking back so you have to start betting, completely change that gameplan".

I disagree with this type of adjustment; in fact i don't think you need to adjust at all. As you said earlier, "his checkbacks are just terrible". If they are terrible, then naturally we gain every time he does it. So therefore feeling we need to 'adjust' by donking out some flops is going to take away one of the big mistakes he's going to make. Surely if he's making an error, we want to encourage it, not take away the possibility?

Sometimes an opponent is pretty well balanced on flop checkbacks and can also play turns well too, and will take you out of your confort zone and you may feel the need to 'switch it up' and start donking more; i think this type of adjustment is okay (although i would argue a lot of the time, playing the turn after donking vs a thinking opponent is just as much out of the comfort zone as dealling with balanced flop checkbacks).

However the large majority of the time, as with this opponent here, they are very unbalanced and play the turn very weakly, and it's pretty easy to play against. More often than not we gain from getting the free card than the opponent; he has narrowed his range sufficiently that we can bluff on good turn/river cards, valuebet thin, or further induce with the top of our range. Yes, now and then he checks back when we have a weak made hand and improves on the turn as we didnt get the chance to 'protect' our hand, but more frequently we will be the ones gaining.

It's one of those opponent leaks that we naturally gain from without having to actively exploit, although there are certainly some adjustments I would make: 3bet preflop for wide value, and generally play more hands OOP; tone down on flop semibluff checkraises, steal aggressively on the turn on a flop checkbk, and respect flop cbets more and make fewer loose peels.

Time Link to 00:34:02

in the discussion of the hypothetical turn 4 diamonds coming, could you expand on why you would continue to barrel? I always give up in these 4flush spots vs passive opponents. There is approximately a bajillion 1-diamond combo hands he's checkcalling the flop with.

Time Link to 00:36:12

i much prefer calling and raising on some turn cards. The bluff will have greater success (i dont think you get any instant folds on the flop on a 422 board, so when your turn barrel comes villain has better odds to call it; whereas turn raising offers worse pot odds and should get more folds), but more importantly we benefit from seeing the turn card before deciding whether to proceed with the semibluff; there are many cards we would rather just call and try and hit (like a 2 or 4), and (as Jt mentions) we have better implied odds when we do hit.

There are also some opponents who I wouldnt semibluff at all, and just call-call-fold - anyone with a single-digit 3bet, for example. Even with say a 15% 3bet, there are some opps who just never release KT regardless of board texture.

Time Link to 00:47:26

really dont like the turn 3bet.

Time Link to 00:49:24

for me having 2 of the 6s makes me less inclined to 3bet, not more inclined. Now there's a lot less straight draw combinations in his range. Vs. his value range we aren't looking good.

Hey All,

Sorry for not replying at all any sooner - I've spent every minute of my life for the past week+ either too sick to get out of bed or in a donkament. I'll take a look @ a bunch of these posts today.

Chuck

I don't follow DMs argument for 3betting the 22 preflop. What advantage of 3betting preflop to just calling and checkraising good boards? With 22, if memory serves, we have <50% equity vs a random hand unless we flop a 2 or it's a paired board; so on most boards, we don't really want to have the initiative as we cant be value-betting. We will have some fold equity but only vs. 6-outer hands, so there's likely to be more value in calling and inducing.

I realise this guy checks back some flops (more on that in a bit) so we can't always just checkcall and induce here, is that that the main reason why you like 3betting this preflop, or would you 3bet small PPs even vs a guy who cbets 100%?

Your 2nd paragraph sums it up but basically vs. a guy that I want to just be putting money in early and can check/fold big streets vs. I just don't see how I can ever player 22 for > 1BB profitably. I've thought about this for some time and eventually I just concluded that I might as well turn my hand into a strong ace hi and 3-bet pf and bet down favorable boards with the intention of folding. If he's not semi-bluffing the vast majority of his draws I have no problem playing this hand OOP.

You dig? I'm very open to discussion here.

i like the final conclusion of checking back this turn. Generally there's a fair amount of discussion in the vid of 'free showdown bet' but i feel in a lot of spots it's not the best way to look at the hand; here we can just as easily get to a 'free showdown' by putting in that BB on the river by checking back and calling a river lead with K high (as JT does in the hand), instead of betting the turn, and it ensures we don't get checkraised off our equity or even fold the better hand.

I check this turn a lot when I think our villain has a decent bluff frequency - do you really think that's the case here? VS. a mid-limit reg I would def be looking to induce there but vs. this guy I was actually considering folding the K-hi according to my tone of voice so I'm not so sure that free showdown bet isn't going to be good here. I just like it in spots when I know I have the best hand and can comfortably fold to a raise and do not expect to be able to induce very much, if at all.

in the discussion of the hypothetical turn 4 diamonds coming, could you expand on why you would continue to barrel? I always give up in these 4flush spots vs passive opponents. There is approximately a bajillion 1-diamond combo hands he's checkcalling the flop with.

We get a good price on the bet and there a are a lot of 1 pair combos he c/c's with as well as some non-diamond hands (ace hi's).

I don't barrel vs. good players a lot.

for me having 2 of the 6s makes me less inclined to 3bet, not more inclined. Now there's a lot less straight draw combinations in his range. Vs. his value range we aren't looking good.

Meh I think we're up against A4/A5/A7 almost always. I don't think he's raising too many straight draws.

Regardless, combo wise, if you want to say he can have 88-AA and the A4/5/7 we are stil 51% (woot!)

Hood,

Re: flop check back adjustments. I think you need to make those adjustments and bet. I'm not worried about stabbing at a few flops when I want to maximize my price when I need fold equity. I don't think us donking is going to ruin him checking back all too much.

Maybe I'm wrong and will rewatch. If he's checking back non-showdown hands then for sure I like not adjusting because lol 2-1 turn bet is celebration. But I do know he played some A-hi's that way and if there is any hint of "balance" to his play I prefer just betting out.

Your 2nd paragraph sums it up but basically vs. a guy that I want to just be putting money in early and can check/fold big streets vs. I just don't see how I can ever player 22 for > 1BB profitably. I've thought about this for some time and eventually I just concluded that I might as well turn my hand into a strong ace hi and 3-bet pf and bet down favorable boards with the intention of folding. If he's not semi-bluffing the vast majority of his draws I have no problem playing this hand OOP.

You dig? I'm very open to discussion here.

Yes, against someone who checks back flops AND doesnt semibluff enough in 3bps on the turn, i think this is a great way to play low PPs.

We get a good price on the bet and there a are a lot of 1 pair combos he c/c's with as well as some non-diamond hands (ace hi's).

I don't barrel vs. good players a lot.

From my experience i dont think people fold 1 pair hands enough when the 4th diamond comes in. But then i dont bet it enough really to know I will have to try barrelling here and see what kind of response i get.

I check this turn a lot when I think our villain has a decent bluff frequency - do you really think that's the case here? VS. a mid-limit reg I would def be looking to induce there but vs. this guy I was actually considering folding the K-hi according to my tone of voice so I'm not so sure that free showdown bet isn't going to be good here. I just like it in spots when I know I have the best hand and can comfortably fold to a raise and do not expect to be able to induce very much, if at all.

So you think you can profitably value-bet on the turn? I think if you are called the bet didn't go in good (altho i haven't done the combo counts).

Hood,

Re: flop check back adjustments. I think you need to make those adjustments and bet. I'm not worried about stabbing at a few flops when I want to maximize my price when I need fold equity. I don't think us donking is going to ruin him checking back all too much.

Maybe I'm wrong and will rewatch. If he's checking back non-showdown hands then for sure I like not adjusting because lol 2-1 turn bet is celebration. But I do know he played some A-hi's that way and if there is any hint of "balance" to his play I prefer just betting out.

It would be good to get other input on this because i think it's a very interesting discussion.