Poker Video: MTT/SNG by AMT (Micro/Small Stakes)

YES!!!!! Keep 'em coming!!

Do you think moving all in preflop is effective , when 4-5 players remain ?
I usually raise the pot and its pretty effective too . whats your opinion?
Nice video ,thank you !

Hey guys, thanks for the comments! Couple of things:

1) I had slight technical difficulty with the beginning of the video, so in case anyone was wondering where the first bit of my chips went on pokerstars in level 1, I think I mention this in the vid, but just in case, I raised QQ and got 3 callers, and on an ace high flop, had to check fold the 4 way pot

2) Wanted you all to note that, in a vacuum, my final shove with 97o on FTP is definitely +EV. Given that I had won a bunch of pots in a row, it could be a spot on the btn that I should pass on and let the SB get aggressive on the BB (thereby helping me out). I think it's fine but with the dynamic of the last couple of orbits, it may be more prudent to fold this hand and let the other two go at it. At the lower buy in's, people will not adjust too quickly which is what made me shove the hand, but they'll also not have a problem calling with hands that players at other sites/buy ins would fold, so I'll probably put this at close but a fold for the sake of analysis in these games.

what does in a vacuum mean?

Great vid AMT.... Keep em coming.

TY very much for still posting new vids during the WSOP. Thats dedication and just shows you all are a good group of business folks. Preciate it

OMG finally vid #2!
Can't wait to watch this.

"Push" needs an intro!

btw:

16:47 AA

You bet 665 into a QT9r flop.

Make it 666!

"Push" needs an intro!

The next few episodes will have one.

what does in a vacuum mean?

it means, when analyzing the hand in itself, with only the number/stats/info. available for that particular hand, as opposed to the opposite of "in a vacuum", which would be in the context of the game. Hope that helps!

sharpy,

you know it! no problem! glad to be here for the members.

Hypnotic,

LOL. I do love betting 666 and pulling the SATANNNN bit in the chat. Totally creeps out the opposition.

I like the 911 bet, too!

Nice vid.

I notice you dont do much besides,
1) try to make the nuts early...very cheap
2) wait for the blinds to go up (is stalling worth anything here?)
3) Push to win lots of blinds...or double up/go busto

My question is...
Are there any places/situations past say the 50/100 level, that you would do anything besides push?

Nice vid.

I notice you dont do much besides,
1) try to make the nuts early...very cheap
2) wait for the blinds to go up (is stalling worth anything here?)
3) Push to win lots of blinds...or double up/go busto

My question is...
Are there any places/situations past say the 50/100 level, that you would do anything besides push?

Welcome to SnG play.

I am sure AMT can answer your question much better than I can but, I am going to say that probably not want to do anything but shove in these spots

after the 50/100 level stack sizes are going to be such that any reasonable raise is going to commit you to the pot. If you were to make a standard raise, you could not fold to a re-raise (well you could, but it would be horrible)

Also, when you make a raise like this you allow the vil to have the chance to leverage you when an all in over the top. Since you are committed by a raise anyway due to stack size, shoving all in gives you the most fold equity and makes it so you have all the leverage.

The only time I can think of raising normally is if you are trying to bait someone into shoving over the top of you when you have a monster. Even then, if you are playing correctly and shoving wide, anything other than a shove is going to look rather fishy to a good player.

HUZZAR!

Nice vid.

I notice you dont do much besides,
1) try to make the nuts early...very cheap
2) wait for the blinds to go up (is stalling worth anything here?)
3) Push to win lots of blinds...or double up/go busto

My question is...
Are there any places/situations past say the 50/100 level, that you would do anything besides push?

multi tabling low buy in sng's in a nutshell


well, in response to your questions, yes, 'stalling' is worth something if you're using the term the way that I think you are. The value of chips in a sng increases as you approach the money. When you double up in the first level of a tournament, you're not actually doubling your equity. This is incredibly important to remember, and drives the "tight early" play or the "waiting to make the nuts" type mentality, as you put it.

as far as your question goes, absolutely there are situations you might find in the mid game where you won't necessarily just push, but often the stack sizes and situations in sngs are such that, as the mid game progresses and late game develops, very rarely are other raise sizes and things of that nature going to be a better play than to just push.

I will say that when you are open raising not all in during the mid game at the 50/100 level or thereabouts, often the stack sizes are such that you have to be careful about manipulating the pot size. things like smaller pf open raise sizes and checking back flops are just a couple of the things that might be implemented to compensate for the awkward stack sizes (of course depending on the situational dynamic). Also things like completing the sb and leading flops as indictated in the video, blind vs. blind vs certain opponents/in certain situations is another example of compensating for the mid game non push/fold play. I'm sure I'll get more into this as I make more videos, but I hope this touched on some of what you were asking. Thanks for the questions!

Do you think moving all in preflop is effective , when 4-5 players remain ?
I usually raise the pot and its pretty effective too . whats your opinion?
Nice video ,thank you !

hey thanks for the question. usually 4-5 handed, when you make a pot size open raise, stacks are such that you can never [correctly] fold to a shove, or really at any point in the hand after opening the pot. So really often what pushing does is put maximal pressure on the other players, given that they cannot make moves against you, and since you'll be doing it with your entire range, they can't get a very good read on what types of hands you're doing it with, specifically, the average unobservant low buy in player. A pot size raise can certainly be effective and look stronger, and in spots where you want to maintain maximum fold equity but are unsure if the players look like they're adjusting, you can make a raise like that to keep that pressure on them (and of course, never fold if they do happen to shove over the top anyways, unless you're in a more rare, deeper stacked bubble/late game situation), but in general, stacks are going to be such that the game is simply push/fold more often than not by that stage of the tournament given the stack dynamics and tournament context.

only emptiness exists in a vacuum.

Awesome video AMT! I've been stoked since the last one. I had a question regarding your use of push/fold. Do u think it is optimal to play this way when you are down to say 4 people at the 50/100 level or do u keep the strategy during heads up play? I'm kind of torn on this because I see a lot of situations down to heads up or 3 people left where I'm spewing a bit too much. THanks

Just a few questions. The first AA hand (on stars) where you have around 12bb you make a standard raise to three hundred. I was just wondering how you wouldve played AK. i Expect the answer to be a push, but let's say you made the same raise and the same flop came. Do you push the flop? A stupid question really, but whatever.
The second thing i'm wondering is what is you calling range 5-handed and down if you're put all-in in the blinds. You didn't face alot of those situations, but i think you folded A2. Anyway what would you call with?

AMT, thanks for another really good video. I've recently been playing a lot more SNGs, so this is nice to see.

Having been on 2+2 since '04, I've watched the development of SNG theory. It started really with the advent of ICM and then SNGPT. Mainly, its greatest use was on Party's SNGs where people were making five figures every month using the same techniques. I don't know if you were around when Party changed its structure, but there was much tearing of clothing and mourning the change. It appears 2+2ers have simply taken the same techniques of pushbotting onto Stars and FTP.

I've been playing lots of the 11's on FT and not seeing it. (As you didn't on the $6.50's). I don't use pushbotting very much, because I simply don't have to. I appreciate your explanation of why do it and understand it. However, I have a question for you...

You're a good player against lesser competition. If they find a better hand and you bust, don't you give up greater equity than if you'd made a 2.5-3x raise--assuming you aren't short stacked? As long as a good player has 10BBs, he's a greater threat to win than a mediocre player with more chips. Why are you giving up that advantage for slightly greater FE?



I know that when I start playing the 33's and higher, I'm going to run into more players of equal or better skill, so this will become a moot discussion. It will be pushbot for both of us and let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure you'll be making videos with higher buyins and more pushbot competition, so I'm looking forward to it. Suffice it to say that at this point in the 11's, I win more than my share of headsup and 3-way tables by exploiting their tightness and inexperience by aggression, not pushbotting. When the play back at me, it's usually with a better hand than I have.

Some say that SNGs are a "solved" math problem, but they are still played by people who make mistakes and over-tighten in the later game. (Again, on the 11's, blinds rarely have much impact. Your FT video was an exception, not a normal.)

I know what you're doing, and it was very cool to watch. Just wondering where that line is between giving up a greater edge to win for a smaller edge in increasing chip stack?

Again, my compliments. It's great to watch an expert in action.

CJ

I watched this a couple of days ago and I was going to ask how STT strategy translates to shootout tourneys, if it's 1:1 or if there is more strategy especially after the first round(s). But given your WSOP results I imagine that lends itself to the answer.

Still, just how do they compare/contrast, thoughts?

great vids, thanks and congrats on the final table, which you are playing as I'm writing this, crazy!

-

Awesome video AMT! I've been stoked since the last one. I had a question regarding your use of push/fold. Do u think it is optimal to play this way when you are down to say 4 people at the 50/100 level or do u keep the strategy during heads up play? I'm kind of torn on this because I see a lot of situations down to heads up or 3 people left where I'm spewing a bit too much. THanks

oshow,

depends on the stacks. There are plenty of situations at 50/100 in sngs where the stacks are not played push/fold necessarily, and we'll be playing pot control/making smaller pf raises, etc... but often sng's are best played this way given the stacks and spots you encounter, even if a bit deeper than 10bb. The edge you give up by making this raises is very small when looking at a 13 v 10bb stack, especially heads up. heads up is the same, sometimes it's simply push/fold, sometimes there's room to make some limps, some smaller raises, etc... if you want to ask me about some specific hands, though, either from your play or from mine, I'll be happy to take a look.

Just a few questions. The first AA hand (on stars) where you have around 12bb you make a standard raise to three hundred. I was just wondering how you wouldve played AK. i Expect the answer to be a push, but let's say you made the same raise and the same flop came. Do you push the flop? A stupid question really, but whatever.
The second thing i'm wondering is what is you calling range 5-handed and down if you're put all-in in the blinds. You didn't face alot of those situations, but i think you folded A2. Anyway what would you call with?

in general, if I haven't been active with shoving/haven't shoved but once or twice thus far, I'll continue to make the standard raise sizes, expecting a lot more action with my big hands. people won't really have much of an idea of what you're capable of shoving (especially against players at these buy in levels), and you're more likely to get action in these spots before people adjust for your inevitably soon-to-be 'pushbot' image. It seems exploitable to not make the same play with AK, which I'd generally just shove, but if they have no clue/you aren't ever 'being exploited', than it's not of concern, and is likely to be the best play that will get the most value.

I don't remember the A2 hand at all, but it would really depend on the player, the stacks, if it's the bubble or not, the structure...tons of factors that go into it, really.

CJ,

first off, thanks for the sweat. much appreciated with all the DC guys down there today!

to answer this,

"You're a good player against lesser competition. If they find a better hand and you bust, don't you give up greater equity than if you'd made a 2.5-3x raise--assuming you aren't short stacked? As long as a good player has 10BBs, he's a greater threat to win than a mediocre player with more chips. Why are you giving up that advantage for slightly greater FE? "

the 10 big blind rule is a made up rule. it's a good guide line to follow, but the edge that you gain by making smaller raises with like 12-14bb really is not a lot, and not nearly as much as most people think, and if you're at all wrong/unsure/unable to estimate a range accurately, it can quickly be a suicide mission to make smaller raises with really awkward stacks, when you are effectively neutralized post flop, unable to take advantage of a deeper stack and position against a subpar opponent. also, people take a long time to adjust to pushing, and all that happens is you adjust to. in the lower buy ins, you certainly may not shove as wide in certain 8-12bb spots due to calling ranges, but it's still the same game. It would kind of be like trying to outplay your opponent (like kravchenko today, even though he actually seemed to play a good style for this overall) with really short stacks just because you're at a lower buy in...if the spots don't really allow for it then there isn't a whole lot you can do. Now of course there are situations where you're 12/14+ whatever BB deep and aren't shoving and playing super pot control, not cbetting a lot of flops etc... but there are still spots where you're not gaining enough with the same stack sizes just over 10bb's, and want to maximize FE/put pressure on when you will neutralize your opposition at the points where your tournament equity is most crucial. again though, this is just 2 tables of a STT, and there are tons of mid-game spots that aren't just push/fold, but I hope this helped give some idea of having to find a balance and identify the spots where each may be appropriate.

to wrap it all up, the line of 'giving up your edge' is when the edge is very very small anyways with the stack sizes, when you're not actually giving up your edge, but maximizing it for each and every new arising situation, whether that be to shove 15bb bvb or make a 2.5x raise with 13bb utg.

I watched this a couple of days ago and I was going to ask how STT strategy translates to shootout tourneys, if it's 1:1 or if there is more strategy especially after the first round(s). But given your WSOP results I imagine that lends itself to the answer.

Still, just how do they compare/contrast, thoughts?

great vids, thanks and congrats on the final table, which you are playing as I'm writing this, crazy!

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much different. no ICM in the shootout! well, at least not until the final table. Since it's a winner take all structure, you're really looking for ANY edge you can find. Where you might do things like pass up that blind v blind +Ev shove to preserve your fold equity in a STT, you'd not really consider passing up any type of edge in a winner take all shootout structure. you need all the chips! raising wider/taking advantage of tighter players early, running even marginally +EV bluffs....all of this is necessary in trying to take down a shootout. I was really relentless at my first two tables, moreso at my first because I could be, running probably a 35/20 10-7 handed simply because I could and felt I had an edge in doing so. the games really do not play the same at all, until the final table where the payouts become similar to an STT.

after the first round it's even more ruthless because everyone cashes for the same amount, and the payouts are incredibly top heavy so even the first few out at the final table (daggar for me) don't make much more than 100th-11th places. everyone goes home with the same $ until the final table so it's in every players best interest to take no prisoners and not dance around an imaginary bubble, so to speak. i did have to make several adjustments from table to table based on the situation dynamic, but I'll probably get into this in a blog trip report of the event (coming soon probably). hope this helps! thanks for the well wishes!

I hope you have a full series in season 4

Maybe like a "memoirs of a lemidonk/Minbet Madness" type of theme where you take a cash player (Tubasteve?) and turn him into a SnG pimp.

Or maybe even a real life grinder installment.

Thanks, AMT. You explained it better than anyone else I've ever heard. Perhaps I've been trying to have it both ways, which means I'm not really having it any way at all. I've come back from the dead many times, from as low as T15, to win. I've always figured that in these, as long as I'm in, I can win.

However, I can also see that there is very little difference between having 15BBs and raising it 3x vs having 12BBs and pushing all in. The FE in the first instance more than makes up for any advantage I'd have at getting away from it. Chances are I'm getting the same result by raising 2.5 the BB as I would with pushing, but in my mind it has seemed different.

I'm going to have to study this video very closely, as well as do some more catchup work with ICM.

Thanks, and again, congrats on a great result. Meeting you was my pleasure, and I hope we can again before the end of the Series.

AMT pwns!

hypnotic: alex and i have already discussed that we'd like to do some collaboration so its good to see another person in favor!

Ya!
I think that would be a great series as it is in keeping with previous "transitional" themes. Plus, having the two of you being roomies it only makes sense that you could work together and make it great.

Baby Steps and Push videos are da bomb, so I am sure that a joint effort would be killer.

I'm not surprised at the level of interest in SNGs on DC. They are fun, and pretty profitable. I'm looking forward to whatever you guys have in store.

Yes MORE SNG vids!! How bout some 6 max SNG's?

pooter (pet name for steve, ldo):

holla!

hypnotic and jack,

thanks for the continued feedback and input. good or bad, this is what we thrive on as poker players! Hypnotic, your idea is very in line with what steve and I have collaborated on in brainstorming on cool ideas for videos, both cash--->sngs and vice versa.

jack,

glad I could help in explaining it. It takes a long time to learn how to think through and apply some seemingly simple concepts in sng's, just because of the subtle factors that could mean everything in a new arising situation/tournament context. this should help you to continue to think along sound, logical thought processes, but it's a work in progress- if you feel lost or have a random question about it, feel free to shoot me a msg. that goes for everyone, and when we get a tournament forum on DC, that'll be the place to be when running bad in cash games!

Thanks AMT for the vid it was excellent, I can't wait for the rest of the series.

Hey AMT

I just wanna ask aswell,do you get alot of stick playing that all in style. I have played a few s'n'g the last few days again and tried to implement some/all of your advice and I found that I got called an idiot alot. I don't know if I was pushing too much (I don't think so though, maybe too little to be honest) but I seem to get a fair bit of abuse.

I would like to add I don't mind the abuse too much though, I can give as good as I can get when i'm in the mood + I have had pretty damn good results the last few days. 10 games / 5 2nd's and 2 1st's the rest I was:-
tired/got sucked out on/timed out/was out the room/insert an excuse here

BoOm
hoping it is'nt just a purple patch.

BoOm,

first off, thanks

to speak to your question a bit:

If I don't get berated by someone at my tables during a session of SNGs, I consider it a failure of a session

I'm actually being serious though, for what it's worth. people do not know how to play SNGs and in many respects, sng's are highly counter intuitive to many other forms of poker, so it only makes sense that people view the plays you make as weird and/or bad. that's how I see it, at least, and it also falls in line with what I've observed and discussed with of other great SNGers.

When is the next one coming out?! Any 6 max SNG vids on the way?

BoOm,

first off, thanks

to speak to your question a bit:

If I don't get berated by someone at my tables during a session of SNGs, I consider it a failure of a session

I'm actually being serious though, for what it's worth. people do not know how to play SNGs and in many respects, sng's are highly counter intuitive to many other forms of poker, so it only makes sense that people view the plays you make as weird and/or bad. that's how I see it, at least, and it also falls in line with what I've observed and discussed with of other great SNGers.

Thanks for the reply AMT and I look forward to the rest of the series and your others to come.

Now back to the table with the chat off

BoOm

When is the next one coming out?! Any 6 max SNG vids on the way?

pancho,

patience perhaps.

Awesome Video.

I'm loving the early game vs. mid-game/late-game push/fold concepts.

Often times though, especially at low-stakes, we get down to 3-4 player while still in typical "early game" stages.

At that point, where there is usually a large disparity in stack sizes....how does one adjust if you're not necisarily short relative to the blinds, but short relative to the other players?

FWIW - I've treating these spots as push/fold spots and it feels right, but was curious if you adjust in any way in this situation.

Thanks in advance.

i liked it

Another great video. Great job explaining your concepts, I've learned a lot about Turbo games from watching these 2 videos.

At ~6:15 on the Stars table, is it -EV to call 15 into a 135 pot? I've read books that say when the pot odds are that good, you can make that call with any two cards and hope to flop a monster. While that flop did create an excellent opportunity to stack someone with top pair, is calling with 9:1 odds pre-flop (and terrible position) worth it in these spots while blinds are still low?

At ~6:15 on the Stars table, is it -EV to call 15 into a 135 pot? I've read books that say when the pot odds are that good, you can make that call with any two cards and hope to flop a monster. While that flop did create an excellent opportunity to stack someone with top pair, is calling with 9:1 odds pre-flop (and terrible position) worth it in these spots while blinds are still low?

eh...you're probably not giving up *too* much, but it's just such a garbage hand, and with the value of chips at this level of the tournament being relatively low I'm still maintaining generally pretty tight completing standards. Against poor opposition that you know are loose/tend to play big pots with marginal hands early, there can definitely be added value in completing in these spots getting big odds, but it's not a mistake to continue to fold out the very bottom of your range here. I'd certainly never fold any type of connecting hand or many otherwise fairly poor hands from this position getting big odds after 3+ limpers but again it's fine to just fold this spot.

When it's 5 handed on the left table and you have AK you make it 550 UTG. I figure that's so you give the other players a chance to push over the top. Isn't this a huge tell voor the villains paying attention as you' re pushing all your mediocare hands at that point?

When it's 5 handed on the left table and you have AK you make it 550 UTG. I figure that's so you give the other players a chance to push over the top. Isn't this a huge tell voor the villains paying attention as you' re pushing all your mediocare hands at that point?

I believe this has been discussed in this thread or another one of my video threads. Two basic things behind it:

1) I don't do this type of thing with 100% frequency.

2) No. I think you mean to say that it's exploitable, and the only way it's exploitable is if people are paying attention enough, and diligent enough with their game in the context, to exploit it. I haven't found enough players who are exploiting it in the 5 minute blind levels that make it such that I'd ever consider doing it any other way. People just don't pay close enough attention and don't see enough showdowns (until the higher blinds at like 200/400+ when you're open pushing most everything) to exploit this type of thing. If you're playing regulars at your game, you'll know it and be able to adjust accordingly. Always remember though, exploitable is only exploitable if it's getting exploited.

Very good vid. once again.. thank you..

Again I analyzed your push fold decisions and again I've come up with wrong ranges I suppose.. The ATo hand at FT in 17:00 where you push 10xBB from UTG, I couldn't find a push at the wizard and would definitely fold it in the game.. The same goes for the A9s hand at the stars at the same time..

At 22:00 the K8o hand from the BTN,10xbb effective stacks.. I'm getting folds again with the ranges I'm putting..

Everyone that reviewed my game so far told me that I'm too tight later on.. This is the exact reason why I'm tight.. Using SNGwiz wrong.. I would be better if I hadn't use it at all but that's not an excuse.. I want to learn the wiz..

Kinda off topic but is there any chance you guys can convert this to Ipod format like the first one...i'd love to have the series on my ipod if possible

Kinda off topic but is there any chance you guys can convert this to Ipod format like the first one...i'd love to have the series on my ipod if possible

Wish I could help you out myself with this, but I'll see if Entity has anything to say about it.

Hey Alex,

Old video but I had not taken time to read it before

17:20 on PS table -> I'm a bit surprised of the standard push with A9s and 16BB here. We play a quite big stack with BB.
And would you do it as well in an unopened pot ?

Hey Alex,

Old video but I had not taken time to read it before

17:20 on PS table -> I'm a bit surprised of the standard push with A9s and 16BB here. We play a quite big stack with BB.
And would you do it as well in an unopened pot ?

No, it's definitely because of a fishy limper and the fact that we are at 10bb or less with the limper and the SB with a pretty reasonable holding. I don't expect BB to come along much at all and definitely think we make money just with the amount of times we take it down PF (or perhaps getting called by the limper and winning). I also thinking isolating not all in and getting shoved on by the BB sucks a lot with the price we'd be getting , and this might even force him to fold a hand like 33 or ATo in which case we would gain a ton.

Firstly thanks AMT all your videos are amasing esp LMS much appreciated.

Ques:

When you are comparing hourly win rates etc between the two sites im currently playing on FTP because the 27% RB equates something like 2%ROI which is huge obviously. I would of thought that even though the structure is a little worse it makes up for it greatly. Ive played a fair few MTT on stars aswell and i find the VPP system doesnt really release much $$ in bonus compared withg RB. Would you agree with this or am i missing some benefits from Stars that makes it more proftable to play there assuming av villian comp.

hey simon,

things have changed quite a bit since I was grinding on both sites in high volume for SNGs. I think stars has made updates to their VIP system so I need to see how that works out. I'll look into this a bit and let you know if I can contribute any useful thoughts to the matter. What I can tell you is that the stars VIP system is generous towards higher volume players. I would think higher stakes as well but they do offer rewards/benefits at all levels so just can't say for sure at the moment. If I dont bump this with an additional reply, feel free to send me a PM as I may have forgotten about it in the midst of a busy summer.

Time Link to 00:02:11

after someone bumped this I decided to watch the first few minutes again. I was a nit. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a solid winning strategy a few years ago...but for people trying to improve their poker game and who are only playing a few tables at low buy in SNGs nowadays, people who want to become good hand readers and feel they are playing better than their competition in these games etc.... should loosen up a bit from the recommendations in this vid. I saw that I open folded A5o on the button and open limped 55 in the hijack early on. I think these are both going to be explainable and defendable plays forever in STTs, but I don't know that they are optimal..especially the 55 open limp. Obviously 'it depends' will always come into play RE: whose behind you, stacks and blinds etc... but probably good to keep in mind

I highlight those playing fewer tables simply because I think solid multi tablers grinding 20 tables and still turning a reasonable profit in SNGs are in a place where any small edge gained early from raising these hands is negated by adding tables and playing tighter early (generally yielding a much higher hourly rate).

Thought id post the differences here in case any1 else wanted to see: (damn i hate maths brain is fried).


100 Games PS $6.50 = 8.4$ (VIP cash reward + using your FPP to buy the goldstar cash 50$)

100 games FTP $6.50 = 13.5$ <--- 27% RB.

Over 1K games this equates to about 8BI extra at FTP which is pretty considerable. (Roughly FTP add 0.8% to your ROI). In Addition you have all your FT points to buy merc / tourn tickets.

The only reason i can see for playing PS is if;

- Comp a lot softer (Doubt it)?
- The structure is that much better that it gives you a better edge as the levels are longer?
-