Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by BigBadBabar (High Stakes)

Time Link to 00:03:11

And, it should be pointed out, 2 players sitting out at a 9 max table. Not that that's enough to change A3o from a fold to a 3b, but it would certainly be relevant with some closer hands.

Time Link to 00:04:32

With the 55 you mentioned that you'd
-call if it went call, raise behind you, but
-fold if it goes raise, call

I'm wondering if you can elaborate on why.

Not sure I should open this video -- it could be a tarp.

Time Link to 00:15:01

This entire hand surprised me. First of all I was a bit shocked to hear you contemplating folding on this dry flop so seriously. When it first came down my thought was, 'well I'm getting to the river / showing down quite a bit.' Maybe I'm off on what his 3b range could contain, but you beat Kx, Qx and the mix-up range of SC's.

That said I do agree with you that he will be 2 barreling basically all the time, so if we're going to call and fold a turn brick I agree that x/f flop is better.

As played the turn is the best card in the deck (reducing his Jx combos) and I can't really see folding here being good (as per above now that we've called the flop).

On the river I think it's an interesting spot. As I mentioned I think he has a wider/weaker range, so I would tend to x/c thinking I'm inducing. On the flop and turn you seemed fairly certain villain had a stronger Ax hand. If that's the case I think you definitely should be donk/folding this river to get value. I don't think your flop/turn and river play were very consistent in this hand.

Edit: okay I posted before you talked about the donk/fold. But actually I think your analysis to some extent bears out my point and I'm going to stand by it. When you talked about the river play you mentioned barreling hands in his range (KQ, T9, etc.) that you never really seemed to take into account on the flop. I know this isn't the way you were thinking about the hand, but it literally sounded as if his flop and turn range were xyz, and then on the river all of a sudden he can have bluffs that lose to ace high that weren't in his range earlier.

*I know I never mentioned pocket pairs in this post, but I don't think it changes the overall picture. For example, on the river donk he will likely just call 88 but bet when we check to him. But he will call with Ax that will x back the river, so we're better off betting.

Time Link to 00:20:15

Upper right he actually has a pair of nines, not king high. Not that it matters because you are correct - top two is a MONSTER!

Time Link to 00:27:31

A9o on the upper right -

How would you have responded to a river 3b?

With the 55 you mentioned that you'd
-call if it went call, raise behind you, but
-fold if it goes raise, call

I'm wondering if you can elaborate on why.

yeah, i mis-spoke here, i meant if it went raise, 3bet behind me

i think regardless of if it goes call, raise, or raise, call, that i should be peeling one off

And, it should be pointed out, 2 players sitting out at a 9 max table. Not that that's enough to change A3o from a fold to a 3b, but it would certainly be relevant with some closer hands.

good point. i love it when fr tables turn into 6m tables

Not sure I should open this video -- it could be a tarp.

life is full of risks

perhaps a witty poem could serve as a guardian Talisman for your entry

This entire hand surprised me. First of all I was a bit shocked to hear you contemplating folding on this dry flop so seriously. When it first came down my thought was, 'well I'm getting to the river / showing down quite a bit.' Maybe I'm off on what his 3b range could contain, but you beat Kx, Qx and the mix-up range of SC's.

That said I do agree with you that he will be 2 barreling basically all the time, so if we're going to call and fold a turn brick I agree that x/f flop is better.

As played the turn is the best card in the deck (reducing his Jx combos) and I can't really see folding here being good (as per above now that we've called the flop).

On the river I think it's an interesting spot. As I mentioned I think he has a wider/weaker range, so I would tend to x/c thinking I'm inducing. On the flop and turn you seemed fairly certain villain had a stronger Ax hand. If that's the case I think you definitely should be donk/folding this river to get value. I don't think your flop/turn and river play were very consistent in this hand.

Edit: okay I posted before you talked about the donk/fold. But actually I think your analysis to some extent bears out my point and I'm going to stand by it. When you talked about the river play you mentioned barreling hands in his range (KQ, T9, etc.) that you never really seemed to take into account on the flop. I know this isn't the way you were thinking about the hand, but it literally sounded as if his flop and turn range were xyz, and then on the river all of a sudden he can have bluffs that lose to ace high that weren't in his range earlier.

*I know I never mentioned pocket pairs in this post, but I don't think it changes the overall picture. For example, on the river donk he will likely just call 88 but bet when we check to him. But he will call with Ax that will x back the river, so we're better off betting.

yeah, i agree with you that my analysis on this one isn't very organized. i'm not sure if it's an artifact of playing a lot of live poker lately but i am used to narrow 3bet ranges and often a second barrel. even though it's online this guy seemed like a nit with no history so far with me so i was discounting a bit the hands like t9s, etc. you're right though (and i think i kind of got around to it at the end) that there are enough kqs kind of hands that anyone will 3bet so that i should probably c/c twice and see what's up.

i agree the jack is a good turn card. i do like c/c twice as opposed to c/c c/f. i think that talking about donking the river in retrospect might be a little results oriented. i think his river range is roughly parts that:

a) are monsters, will raise us or lolcall us - we lose bets with a donk.

b) are airball, will mostly fold or sometimes bluffraise us but might barrel themselves(not very congruent with our reads of him but i think we have to consider it might happen sometimes and if we fold it's a minor disaster) - we lose out on bets with a donk

c) are meh made hands better than ours, will call our bet or bet themselves - donk = neutral

d) are better ace high hands, will call our bet or check behind themselves - we gain bets with a donk

i think overall trying to combine and weight those miniranges i think a check is a little better and safer

Upper right he actually has a pair of nines, not king high. Not that it matters because you are correct - top two is a MONSTER!

it's settled - you're in charge of the board reading series

confirm monster.

A9o on the upper right -

How would you have responded to a river 3b?

i think i would have really considered bigfolding. i can't remember the last time that wasn't a 2 card flush in this spot. and you know how much i hate raisefolding.

yeah, i mis-spoke here, i meant if it went raise, 3bet behind me

i think regardless of if it goes call, raise, or raise, call, that i should be peeling one off

Okay, that's fine. My point was going to be that I think we should respond to a single raise the same way (whether that be calling or folding) regardless of where it comes from and I was trying to ask in a way that didn't give that away.

i think that talking about donking the river in retrospect might be a little results oriented.

Well to be fair (you didn't know this) I made that post before I saw the results of the hand and before your post hand analysis.

My contention was simply that in your pre-results analysis you seemed very convinced that segment d was rather large and that b was virtually non existent. If we accept that as his range I definitely think we should donk. I brought that up mostly to identify what I felt was an inconsistency in your thought process.

In actuality as the viewer I felt segment b was larger than you did, which made me favor a x/c (as I mentioned in my first post). So I fully admit from a results standpoint I would have 'missed' the value bet here.

Time Link to 00:50:37

Great vid you have made me a good deal of man money ty very much. I play a lot at Commerce as well an I am just starting to get into limit being a former NL player(I play 4/8 or 8/16 now). Although not as potentially lucrative, I find the limit games more of a steady return with a much less chance of getting felted. What stakes do you play at Commerce, what do you sit down with? Do you feel people check raise bluff/semi bluff on the turn at all live? I tend to give these check raises on the turn a lot more credit live than online. I mean I haven't yet called someone down with ace high live when it is somewhat routine online. Obviously it depends on the player but what do you think of this observation in general?

Great vid you have made me a good deal of man money ty very much. I play a lot at Commerce as well an I am just starting to get into limit being a former NL player(I play 4/8 or 8/16 now). Although not as potentially lucrative, I find the limit games more of a steady return with a much less chance of getting felted. What stakes do you play at Commerce, what do you sit down with? Do you feel people check raise bluff/semi bluff on the turn at all live? I tend to give these check raises on the turn a lot more credit live than online. I mean I haven't yet called someone down with ace high live when it is somewhat routine online. Obviously it depends on the player but what do you think of this observation in general?

hi there ty for the kind words

you also get to play more hands in limit holdem and get to more showdowns (which i enjoy)

i'm not a commerce reg - just out here visiting. i'm playing 20/40 and 40/80. there are some checkraise bluffs and semibluffs at these stakes yeah, but at lower stakes i'd say they're pretty rare. when i was coming up playing 4/8 5/10 live i don't think i called down ace high very often at all. those players usually have something. of course it depends on the player but as a default it's kind of like online - the lower stakes guys are more passive and usually have it, and as you start to move up there is more aggression and friskiness.

hopeful bump to counteract dd spam

Time Link to 00:17:18

I thought this postflop play was extremely optimistic against this player type of a 9/4 nit. Yes, its only 60ish hands, but I would be surprised if he turned out looser than 12/8 over a reasonable sample.

I disagree with a few of your assumptions. First, that villain is opening a somewhat wide range in the CO. I find these player types more or less have a set of hands they will open from any position and that is about it. If they do have a steal button, its usually the on the button or SB only. So while you estimate him opening like 10-15% of hands here, I think its more like 8% which approximately equals AJo, KTs, 88+.

2nd, that you have any type of fold equity on this board. I find these players will relentlessly show down given there starting hand range. The board is fairly draw heavy with the flush draw and I would surprised if you could fold out AJ here by the river on blank turn & rivers. There just not used to finding a fold, ever.

Finally, I think there's a reasonable chance you might get a free card on the turn. Some opponents like to check behind turns to induce/pot control with A high, 88, 77, etc here a lot. Others always fire 2 barrels, then check river, but its pretty easy to figure who does what.

Basically, I just think your somewhat crushed here fairly often, have very little fold equity on a very expensive bluff and have a chance at a free card on the turn by just check/calling the flop. Which is my default play in this spot.

I thought this postflop play was extremely optimistic against this player type of a 9/4 nit. Yes, its only 60ish hands, but I would be surprised if he turned out looser than 12/8 over a reasonable sample.

I disagree with a few of your assumptions. First, that villain is opening a somewhat wide range in the CO. I find these player types more or less have a set of hands they will open from any position and that is about it. If they do have a steal button, its usually the on the button or SB only. So while you estimate him opening like 10-15% of hands here, I think its more like 8% which approximately equals AJo, KTs, 88+.

2nd, that you have any type of fold equity on this board. I find these players will relentlessly show down given there starting hand range. The board is fairly draw heavy with the flush draw and I would surprised if you could fold out AJ here by the river on blank turn & rivers. There just not used to finding a fold, ever.

Finally, I think there's a reasonable chance you might get a free card on the turn. Some opponents like to check behind turns to induce/pot control with A high, 88, 77, etc here a lot. Others always fire 2 barrels, then check river, but its pretty easy to figure who does what.

Basically, I just think your somewhat crushed here fairly often, have very little fold equity on a very expensive bluff and have a chance at a free card on the turn by just check/calling the flop. Which is my default play in this spot.

we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, i guess. i agree he's nittyseeming so far but i would be pretty confident that he'll end up being a little looser than 9/4 in the long run, and also that he will have a bit more of an lp opening range than he will ep. we can both agree it's a fairly narrow range compared to what i would have, for example.

i'm not sure what you mean by that we're "crushed" - i mean i have king high and am not super stoked by it. but i do think he has some range that will fold immediately to the c/r or on the turn or riv, and i do have a lot of outs that i can hit. so i felt like the combination of equity plus creating fold equity made a c/r here okay. i think check/calling probably makes me more uncomfortable here than does check/folding, to be honest. i don't know that the pot is the right size for me to want to take a passive drawing line. i think what you say about how he may check back the turn some, giving me a free card, is good. however on the flip side of that i'd be worried that he may barrel again on the turn with his whole range, in which case my flop checkcall just kind of postpones the decision point in the hand and lets him keep the initiative and put me to a tough spot again.

it's been my experience that the overly tight guys are not in fact overly showdown bound. i agree that if they bet flop and check back turn they often are planning to call a river bet. but in general i've found that pressuring them and trying to steal a lot of pots from them is a useful strategy.

i'm just not ready to checkcall here, and what, consider fold brick turns if he barrels again? also i don't think it's an "expensive bluff" since i have to have lots of outs to the nuts or a good pair.

BBB, I'm curious as to what hands in his range you think he'll

a) Fold right away to the C/R

b) Fold to the turn barrel (assuming its relatively blank)

c) Fold on the River(same assumption as b)

d) If a small club comes off on the turn or river and you fire both streets

i guess what a lot of this comes down to is how we perceive his range pf - i want to give him 15%+ maybe which has some ax combos like a7s or so that i don't see him getting to showdown. i definitely agree with you that the more tight of a range we give him, say 10% or so, that he gets very top heavy and is much more likely to have made a pair or a pair+draw kind of thing that is getting to the river at least.

as far as fold right away to the cr, maybe some ace highs and maybe some pocket pairs below the 2 broadways on the board

on the turn, not much on a brick, except some gutshots that peeled once probably.

i think you have to consider scary turns though as well. i have a lot of fake outs for him to fold unpaired ace highs as well as pocket pairs and so on.

on the river, on a brick, i don't see this type of player (in my experience wtsd 28-32 or so) autoshowing down most unpaired ace highs.

it's very possible a lot of our disagreement is coming from different experiences with this type of player, as well as different estimations of his pf range

keep in mind i am not treating this as a pure bluff - i get the sense that you think i think the only way to win this pot is to make him fold. i have a fair number of outs to a showdownable hand. as far as whether purebluffing here with no pair no draw is profitable, we better save that for another time

it's very possible a lot of our disagreement is coming from different experiences with this type of player, as well as different estimations of his pf range

I agree, your pf range is a bit wider than I'm comfortable with just judging from my experiences. If I agree on your pf range, I don't really have a problem with the play. I definitely agree that these types of players can be bulldozed over when we get into spots with them when both our ranges are relatively wide, such as BvB.

i think you have to consider scary turns though as well. i have a lot of fake outs for him to fold unpaired ace highs as well as pocket pairs and so on.

This I wasn't sure on. Ks, Js, & Ts are obviously not fake outs because they make our hand. Are you referring to only small s here? Or do you feel Aces may induce some folds as an optically scary card, even though they don't really hit our C/R range, except for maybe the nut flush draw. Would you include offsuits 8s as possibly fake outs?

yeah i think clubs are useful for me, definitely. i think it's also possible a very nitty player will fold ace high if the board pairs, thinking that he can be drawing dead now, especially if the top card pairs. if an ace comes and he calls i can give up probably, and i think he folds some pairs if the ace comes also. i think eights are a little something as well.

so it's not like there are giant swaths of cards left in the deck to help me - i see your point if we're going on him having a tightish range. but there are a fair bit of things that can scare him for one reason or another. given that he's an overtight player who likes to look for reasons to fold, i am going to take the approach of being aggressive and optimistic in encouraging him to do so!

Time Link to 00:18:54

If he's really as tight as his stats say he is, he could honestly have AA or KK here and be scared of the Queen pairing. You see that all the time in live games

If he's really as tight as his stats say he is, he could honestly have AA or KK here and be scared of the Queen pairing. You see that all the time in live games

yeah good point - some sort of weird wa/wb line where they Wake Up and Donk the River when oop, and do this "pot control" stuff ip