Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by surfdoc (Micro/Small Stakes)

Great idea for a series. Looking forward to some hudless action.

E: Maybe you could do a video on Cake where nobody is allowed to use HUD.

Liked this vid, nice to see some non-perfect play and good rapport and discussion.

Be interested to see a series. I don't think the HUD-less thing made much difference, other than it sounded like they would have been happier to see stats.

Solid standalone sweat video

To clarify that:

Very solid video had the description been:

Surfdoc and Mike L. return to the NLHE game. Mike picks Surfdoc's brain as he 4-tables $.1/.25 NLHE.
[c/p'ed that from one of your earlier vids and changed the stakes]

This video fails at delivering what the description poromises though.

Mike l. and surfdoc team up to teach you how to play without your HUB. The series focuses on note taking,

[I'm around 50 minutes in and have seen you take/talk about one note]

paying attention to all moves of your opponents,

[this happens to some extent, but that's what I expect from a good vid anyways. HUD or no HUD.]

and your own table image.

[mostly redundant at uNL imo. MOSTLY]

Liked this vid, nice to see some non-perfect play and good rapport and discussion.

Be interested to see a series. I don't think the HUD-less thing made much difference, other than it sounded like they would have been happier to see stats.

I am a traditionally stats oriented player so I prefer to use HUD as well. The idea grew out of some requests from the community but this is an adjustment for me too and hopefully it can be made as the series or mini-series unfolds.

To clarify that:

Very solid video had the description been:

Surfdoc and Mike L. return to the NLHE game. Mike picks Surfdoc's brain as he 4-tables $.1/.25 NLHE.
[c/p'ed that from one of your earlier vids and changed the stakes]

This video fails at delivering what the description poromises though.

Mike l. and surfdoc team up to teach you how to play without your HUB. The series focuses on note taking,

[I'm around 50 minutes in and have seen you take/talk about one note]

paying attention to all moves of your opponents,

[this happens to some extent, but that's what I expect from a good vid anyways. HUD or no HUD.]

and your own table image.

[mostly redundant at uNL imo. MOSTLY]

The points you make are for the most part valid. Mike played these hands on his own so I had no real control over the content or frequency of his notes. I admit that when the action gets going and there are so many poker spots to comment on it was a challenge to re-focus on how the lack of HUD was affecting decisions, especially since so many decisions are standard and the information on certain villains was largely negligible due to the duration of the session.

Thanks for the comments though. They are extremely valuable and exactly what we need to shape further episodes.

I think people without HUDs at uNL are costing themselves money, but I still think this is a good idea for a series. hopefully it generates some different analysis than the typical uNL video.

Great idea for a series. Looking forward to some hudless action.

E: Maybe you could do a video on Cake where nobody is allowed to use HUD.

I think a cake session would be sweet.

I think people without HUDs at uNL are costing themselves money, but I still think this is a good idea for a series. hopefully it generates some different analysis than the typical uNL video.

While I see what you're saying I still think that playing some without a HUD can be good for your overall game. I played 25nl for 2 months HUDless and it did wonders for my overall game. Forcing me to pay closer attention to player tendencies. Also taught me what tendencies to look for.

I now use a basic HUD. However I'm uncomfortable making decisions with "stat only reads" so I find myself paying a lot more attention to player actions. Having "stat reads" and "actual reads" together make for very solid reads overall. All this is due to my HUDless play for a while.

I'm looking forward to checking out this series.

I'm currently playing 10NL and 20NL on Cake Poker. I have played on FTP with a HUD for about 20k hands and decided as a developing player that I would rather learn the game without a HUD. I have switched over to Cake to beging the transformation. I have about 30k hands on Cake and have found not using a HUD VERY useful for developing my game. I have a few posts about it in my blog.

To respond to el_grande, not using a HUD when you are beginning mirrors the concept of opportunity cost. How much more money are you losing by not developing your game before you begin using a HUD. Using a HUD as a new player is like jumping into a supervising roll at 'XYZ' business, while not using a HUD is like going to college and starting from the ground up. Which path do you think will 'make the most money' in the long-run?

Stats don't lie, I don't see the advantages of playing micro's without a HUD to be honest. It's not as if you can't be watching the action closely when you're using a HUD. It's just that you can't focus on 4 tables constantly, so if you miss something, that's where the HUD comes in.

This sounds to me like we're going back in time, it's a bit weird.

Stats don't lie, I don't see the advantages of playing micro's without a HUD to be honest. It's not as if you can't be watching the action closely when you're using a HUD. It's just that you can't focus on 4 tables constantly, so if you miss something, that's where the HUD comes in.

More than that, IMO, the player pool is so huge and your lines vs. TAGs and passive fish are so different that it's critical to be able to identify.

Just knowing VPIP/PFR is gold. Even over small samples.

But just because that's true doesn't mean you can't get value out of a HUDless series or playing without it sometimes.

More than that, IMO, the player pool is so huge and your lines vs. TAGs and passive fish are so different that it's critical to be able to identify.

Just knowing VPIP/PFR is gold. Even over small samples.

But just because that's true doesn't mean you can't get value out of a HUDless series or playing without it sometimes.

That's true. If this series concludes you miss a lot playing HUDless I rest my case

Congrats to DC for listening to members. Interested in the series.

Using a HUD as a new player is like jumping into a supervising roll at 'XYZ' business, while not using a HUD is like going to college and starting from the ground up. Which path do you think will 'make the most money' in the long-run?

I'm not sure i agree. Using a HUD when you're a beginner just helps you understand and focus on how different stats affects the game. The awareness of peoples tendencies is hard to be analyzed with only basic knowledge of the game and HUD's complements and help you recognize them. The HUD does however not tell you how to adjust or play versus stats which is the sort of core of all poker advancement, and that is a step you need to learn on your own with the help of a HUD. It just makes the learning period much easier.
Id compare it more like going to college without any books.

While watching this video and seeing the mistakes that he's making, I was thinking in my head wow he should of done this, I would of played that hand differently. This is a great video to allow me to do that. Every other video on DC is by a professional and they play their A game. Nice to see that there are some people out there that trying to moveup.

this looks like a great idea for a series. I read this article from fees on 2p2 which really got me thinking about approaching things differently in my game - less tables, more thinking

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32/beginners-questions/fees-guide-going-robusto-243141/

If you have any thoughts on this I'd love to hear them

Time Link to 00:17:27

The 99 hand in the top right. I think a c bet is mandatory here on KJ4. As discussed your 3 bet size was too small, giving him the odds to continue with almost any 2 cards. Check folding is too week. We just gave him a chance to bluff with so many worse hands. I think C-bet 60% pot and give up if called is way + ev. He is going to fold all pokets 10's and lower as well as SC's that missed. I see a compunding of error's here. Your 3 bet is bad. Your 3 bet size is worse. Your flop check fold is terrible. I realize that this is a learning experiance for you but surfdoc should have realized that your not c-betting that flop was bad.
just my $.02

Stats don't lie, I don't see the advantages of playing micro's without a HUD to be honest. It's not as if you can't be watching the action closely when you're using a HUD. It's just that you can't focus on 4 tables constantly, so if you miss something, that's where the HUD comes in.

This sounds to me like we're going back in time, it's a bit weird.

they don't "lie", but they can be incredibly deceptive if you don't know how to use them correctly. the point of the video is to show how to get real reads. knowing how often someone has 2-barreled over 100 hand sample is useless unless you know what spots they barreled in. was it for value? how thin was the value? were they bluffing? if so, what was the board texture? you see what i mean?

Just an awsome video

Time Link to 00:28:23

Why are we betting our bottom pair, 2nd NFD on the flop if we are going to c/c down or b/f river once we hit the flush?

If we are betting the flop shouldn't we be b/f every street?

Time Link to 00:44:03

I think he's using a 2.5x raising strategy here, which would be 62.5¢ rounded up it's 63¢.

Good video by Surfduc, but Mike I should never do another video again !!! He is not experienced enough and very annoying with his ABC limit game! Guy just never shut up about his stupid ideas !!!!!

Time Link to 00:28:52

How do you bluff the flop with bottom pair and the 2nd nut flush draw as a semi bluff and then when you hit ur hand you turn it into a bluff catcher? your scared of one card in the deck. There are plenty of spades he will call you down with to go bet bet on the turn and river imo. half pot on the turn and river size depending on if you get more than one caller. I just think if your semi bluffing that flop your missing out on value when you hit. By deciding to bluff catch with it the hand makes no difference than betting with a hand that has much less value. Imo if your gonna play the hand the way you did you should have checked the flop.

Why are we betting our bottom pair, 2nd NFD on the flop if we are going to c/c down or b/f river once we hit the flush?

If we are betting the flop shouldn't we be b/f every street?

Did not see this post was watching video when posted. I had a similar arguement

also this is NL25. one thing my coach had always gotten on me about was assuming micro players are smarter than they are. In general they're all a bunch of morons who call you down too light and in those situations they will show up with plenty of mediocre flushes

How do you bluff the flop with bottom pair and the 2nd nut flush draw as a semi bluff and then when you hit ur hand you turn it into a bluff catcher? your scared of one card in the deck. There are plenty of spades he will call you down with to go bet bet on the turn and river imo. half pot on the turn and river size depending on if you get more than one caller. I just think if your semi bluffing that flop your missing out on value when you hit. By deciding to bluff catch with it the hand makes no difference than betting with a hand that has much less value. Imo if your gonna play the hand the way you did you should have checked the flop.

I just reviewed this hand. It was a pretty long time ago. I certainly understand your desire to bet bet bet and fold when raised. I think that is a decent option and very well could be the best against very bad players. I also think my advice may be tainted a bit based on generally playing in bigger games against tougher players. It is not that we are turning our 2nd nut flush into a bluff catcher but recognizing that we are trying to maximize the value we get across their ranges. I think that we get called by a lot of non-flush hands on the river after the turn checks through 3 ways when otherwise we bet and get 2 folds. We also get river bluffs and value bets from the SB when the turn checks through. I think it is pretty easy for one or both to get away from small spades when we bet the turn but not on the river. However, I accept that you guys know your opponents better than I do so adjust appropriately.

I just reviewed this hand. It was a pretty long time ago. I certainly understand your desire to bet bet bet and fold when raised. I think that is a decent option and very well could be the best against very bad players. I also think my advice may be tainted a bit based on generally playing in bigger games against tougher players. It is not that we are turning our 2nd nut flush into a bluff catcher but recognizing that we are trying to maximize the value we get across their ranges. I think that we get called by a lot of non-flush hands on the river after the turn checks through 3 ways when otherwise we bet and get 2 folds. We also get river bluffs and value bets from the SB when the turn checks through. I think it is pretty easy for one or both to get away from small spades when we bet the turn but not on the river. However, I accept that you guys know your opponents better than I do so adjust appropriately.

Hey appreciate you commenting on it esp since its so old. I just got back to online poker in the past two weeks(US). So im back at micros since my roll vanished into thin air. Thats just been my read against players at these levels. I understand your idea of it I just think that at these stakes bet bet bet is usually the best way to go about it. Lets remember limped pot preflop and if someone had an ace its less likely a player at this level they are going to play it passivley. Its prob a little closer than I orginally had thought but i think in general hands that are mid flushes are calling you down litterally everytime. Nl25 famous for calling light