Poker Video: Stud/Stud 8 by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Nice to have a Stud Hi vid again. Keep them coming!
Sadly the audio is messed up in some spots

Q4Q (05:00): What is the difference between T4T, J4J and Q4Q here? Under the assumption that villain doesn't have KK, we have an overpair in either of these cases. So, why limp with T4T and J4J, but raise with Q4Q? They are essentially the same hands in this situation.
(12:30): Villains donk on 6th makes no sense - true. He can't reraise us - true. But what do we achieve with a raise? Most often he will fold his bluffs and marginal hands and continue with hands that have us beat. His range is polarized. I think calling twice unless we improve is the best line here. If he checks the river, it's a easy valuebet.

QJJ (24:30): Don't think it's a nobrainer fold on the river with 2pair. It's close imo. We checked 6th behind and showed weakness, there were an 8 and a K dead on 3rd... What are his options with a single pair of open KK? He can't xc the river, but if he bets 2pair won't raise here. And there is a possiblity that we fold 2pair. He needs to be bluffing 15% of the time for us to break even. Regarding all this, calling can't be that big of a mistake.

8AA (42:50): When he bets 6th I would not raise since he bets despite your scary board. I'd rather raise 5th as JT said.

@JT: I've seen it quite often in small stakes Stud Hi that (bad) loose aggressive players complete any pair, 3straight and 3flush on 3rd when being the bring-in.

At least SOMEONE else is excited about stud, mission completed

regarding Q4Q vs. T4T, I'd wait for Joe's response, but my guess: TT is significantly worse because of the current equity (villain can make, Js-Qs up on later streets), plus the possibility of folding to more scare cards or not getting enough value for my better hands because of my scare cards.

QJJ: absolutely agree with your reasoning. Its just an extremely opponent-dependent decision (thats what I'm really struggling with: reads, note taking, plus I cant recognize player types unless they do sth completely retarded). My questions should have been: 1. is he always value betting Ks up? 2. can he turn his kings UI into a bluff? I guess the answer is 1. prolly yes 2. prolly no given a random 2/4 guy, so folding is reasonable here. But I'm a limi-holdem-donk and I don't fold TPTK+

8AA: similar situation than the 1st hand imo, except that we beat kings up here, so I'd be slightly more inclined to raise here. But as said, I missed a pretty clear value raise on 5th.

regarding Q4Q vs. T4T, I'd wait for Joe's response, but my guess: TT is significantly worse because of the current equity (villain can make, Js-Qs up on later streets), plus the possibility of folding to more scare cards or not getting enough value for my better hands because of my scare cards.

I've run some sims at twodimes:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 121718 24.34 378273 75.65 9 0.00 0.243
8s 2d 8h 165559 33.11 334436 66.89 5 0.00 0.331
Ts 4d Th 212709 42.54 287277 57.46 14 0.00 0.425

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 119563 23.91 380412 76.08 25 0.01 0.239
8s 2d 8h 162260 32.45 337727 67.55 13 0.00 0.325
Js 4d Jh 218147 43.63 281831 56.37 22 0.00 0.436

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 117838 23.57 382147 76.43 15 0.00 0.236
8s 2d 8h 158072 31.61 341918 68.38 10 0.00 0.316
Qs 4d Qh 224070 44.81 275915 55.18 15 0.00 0.448

You can see that they run pretty close and are virtually the same hand.

Nice to have a Stud Hi vid again. Keep them coming!
Sadly the audio is messed up in some spots

Q4Q (05:00): What is the difference between T4T, J4J and Q4Q here? Under the assumption that villain doesn't have KK, we have an overpair in either of these cases. So, why limp with T4T and J4J, but raise with Q4Q? They are essentially the same hands in this situation.

You are on the right path, but what you have to consider is the random hands behind. Sklansky's horse race theory applies here. Now, I did say, I would "consider the not raising 3rd to keep the pot small - S&M line more for a hand like TT/JJ." There are going to be times where the opponents behind you are going to have hands that dominate you, hands like T4T, are obviously dominated by QQ/JJ in the hole, or hands that can make QQ/JJ on the later streets like AQ9s. In addition, our limped K could have a hand like AJ-K, AQ-K, etc which by raising on 3rd and building a pot where we do not have overwhelming equity and give such a hand correct odds to peel.

(12:30): Villains donk on 6th makes no sense - true. He can't reraise us - true. But what do we achieve with a raise? Most often he will fold his bluffs and marginal hands and continue with hands that have us beat. His range is polarized. I think calling twice unless we improve is the best line here. If he checks the river, it's a easy valuebet.

Because he'll c/f a lot of hands on the river when he misses his draw/whatever he donked with, get the raise for value in on 6th.

QJJ (24:30): Don't think it's a nobrainer fold on the river with 2pair. It's close imo. We checked 6th behind and showed weakness, there were an 8 and a K dead on 3rd... What are his options with a single pair of open KK? He can't xc the river, but if he bets 2pair won't raise here. And there is a possiblity that we fold 2pair. He needs to be bluffing 15% of the time for us to break even. Regarding all this, calling can't be that big of a mistake.

Yeah, I can agree with that, I bumbled my thought process trying to figure out how we can win this pot.

I've run some sims at twodimes:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 121718 24.34 378273 75.65 9 0.00 0.243
8s 2d 8h 165559 33.11 334436 66.89 5 0.00 0.331
Ts 4d Th 212709 42.54 287277 57.46 14 0.00 0.425

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 119563 23.91 380412 76.08 25 0.01 0.239
8s 2d 8h 162260 32.45 337727 67.55 13 0.00 0.325
Js 4d Jh 218147 43.63 281831 56.37 22 0.00 0.436

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d Ah Kh 117838 23.57 382147 76.43 15 0.00 0.236
8s 2d 8h 158072 31.61 341918 68.38 10 0.00 0.316
Qs 4d Qh 224070 44.81 275915 55.18 15 0.00 0.448

You can see that they run pretty close and are virtually the same hand.

The problem is, as I said in the first post, is the hands we have behind us too. Sadly there is no tool for adding in random hands, but that 2% equity between them will start to widen.

I got some different numbers from the twodimes sims, but here are a couple of other comparisons:

Jd Ah Kh 143601 28.72 356370 71.27 29 0.01 0.287
8s 2d 8h 146002 29.20 353996 70.80 2 0.00 0.292
Ts 4d Th 210366 42.07 289603 57.92 31 0.01 0.421

Jd Ah Kh 131127 26.23 368857 73.77 16 0.00 0.262
8s 2d 8h 140978 28.20 359016 71.80 6 0.00 0.282
Qs 4d Qh 227876 45.58 272108 54.42 16 0.00 0.456


7d Ah Kh 117035 23.41 382953 76.59 12 0.00 0.234
8s Jd 8h 179112 35.82 320879 64.18 9 0.00 0.358
Ts 4d Th 203835 40.77 296150 59.23 15 0.00 0.408

7d Ah Kh 113366 22.67 386619 77.32 15 0.00 0.227
8s Jd 8h 154517 30.90 345473 69.09 10 0.00 0.309
Qs 4d Qh 232096 46.42 267887 53.58 17 0.00 0.464

One more sim:
7d Ah Kh 115446 23.09 384544 76.91 10 0.00 0.231
Js Jd 8h 232924 46.58 267064 53.41 12 0.00 0.466
Ts 4d Th 151613 30.32 348375 69.67 12 0.00 0.303

7d Ah Kh 112641 22.53 387351 77.47 8 0.00 0.225
Js Jd 8h 155623 31.12 344368 68.87 9 0.00 0.311
Qs 4d Qh 231724 46.34 268269 53.65 7 0.00 0.463

Obviously, these are some extreme cases, but Q4Q and T4T are definitely not the same hand. Of course, you may end up playing the same on third street, but T4T is definitely the more marginal hand.

I got some different numbers from the twodimes sims...

This is because you've omitted the dead cards.

Obviously, these are some extreme cases, but Q4Q and T4T are definitely not the same hand. Of course, you may end up playing the same on third street, but T4T is definitely the more marginal hand.

You're right, we are in bad shape in this case where T4T is way more marginal. But we should not forget that we are playing against handranges. The hands you used in your sim are probably the toppest 1-2% of their limping range, if at all. Most of their range are (very) weak hands. So, if we would run T4T, J4J, Q4Q vs. their whole range, I guess they all run close, although they perform very differently vs. top 1-2%.

You are on the right path, but what you have to consider is the random hands behind. Sklansky's horse race theory applies here. Now, I did say, I would "consider the not raising 3rd to keep the pot small - S&M line more for a hand like TT/JJ." There are going to be times where the opponents behind you are going to have hands that dominate you, hands like T4T, are obviously dominated by QQ/JJ in the hole, or hands that can make QQ/JJ on the later streets like AQ9s. In addition, our limped K could have a hand like AJ-K, AQ-K, etc which by raising on 3rd and building a pot where we do not have overwhelming equity and give such a hand correct odds to peel.

As you said: Stud is extremly situational. And this situation is equally favorable for Q4Q/J4J/T4T: 2 weak limpers in front of us, a bunch of middling straight cards behind us, dead spade fd, not too live heart fd. We have a pair that is higher than all, except one, facecards. If we are raising, the players behind us will have a hard time calling, because nearly all draws they can have are dead. If called by a fd like A97 our equity (assuming weak limper ranges) with Q4Q/J4J/T4T is nearly the same.
Of course somebody can have QQ/JJ in the hole, but since we are playing an educated guessing game based on their doors, we shouldn't fear monsters under our bed. Most of the time they don't and have to fold.
If facing action/scary boards, I'm happy to release my pair on the early streets.

49J6(1:08:00): You suggest jamming the 4flush on 4th vs. a probable big pair, because of the equity edge.
I've seen this many times and have done this myself, but my question is: how to balance this line HU? If our opponent knows we're jamming the 4flush on 4th, he can play optimal vs. us on the later streets.

Ill give this thread a good old bump, this might be somewhat of and ignorant question (very new to stud).

15mins in, the hand where hero makes a flush on 6th and on 7th cplayer donks the river into 3 of us with Aces full.

My question is how standard is cplayers donk bet on 7th? we showed alot of strength by raising 5th, so he should expect us to vb 7th near 100% of the time (is this correct?) and cplayer is in the best position to squeeze the third player and check raise the field.

Also most importantly imo he doesn't have a pair showing so his hand is very disguised. To me it really looks like his river play is costing him somewhere between one and three bets.

Or am i reading the river play incorrectly? I realize I have made a number of assumptions, but I am coming to stud with almost no experience can you please comment on my logic and is there anything I am missing here?

Thanks guys for any imput

49J6(1:08:00): You suggest jamming the 4flush on 4th vs. a probable big pair, because of the equity edge.
I've seen this many times and have done this myself, but my question is: how to balance this line HU? If our opponent knows we're jamming the 4flush on 4th, he can play optimal vs. us on the later streets.

There should be enough hands in your range that you can find balance, esp when you have a big pair in the hole, or a pair w/a 3-flush w/live Ace kicker where you can take a free card vs a bigger pair, etc.

15mins in, the hand where hero makes a flush on 6th and on 7th cplayer donks the river into 3 of us with Aces full.

At 15mins we have a four flush board.

Could you add an exact time-stamp? Or better yet, time-links to the hands you have questions about. Please watch this video on how to use the new Flash Player: http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/866-Using-the-Flash-Video-Player

This should enhance your video watching experience, especially when you have questions and have to make notes.

-Joe

There should be enough hands in your range that you can find balance, esp when you have a big pair in the hole, or a pair w/a 3-flush w/live Ace kicker where you can take a free card vs a bigger pair, etc.

Thanks for coming back to this. But your answer doesn't really convince me...
The cases you've mentioned:

1. We have a pair in the hole bigger than his door. In this case we should 3bet most of the times on 3rd. If we 3bet him on 3rd, he donks 4th and we raise, only a bad opponent will 3bet with a worse hand.

2. We have a pair with a 3flush and live A kicker. You never get your money in good, if not at least one of his big pair outs is dead. If you're jamming 4th and checking behind 5th, it costs you 2BB instead of 1,5BB when you're calling twice. And if villain is decent it will cost you 3BB when he donks 5th when you brick.

Thanks for coming back to this. But your answer doesn't really convince me...
The cases you've mentioned:

1. We have a pair in the hole bigger than his door. In this case we should 3bet most of the times on 3rd. If we 3bet him on 3rd, he donks 4th and we raise, only a bad opponent will 3bet with a worse hand.

2. We have a pair with a 3flush and live A kicker. You never get your money in good, if not at least one of his big pair outs is dead. If you're jamming 4th and checking behind 5th, it costs you 2BB instead of 1,5BB when you're calling twice. And if villain is decent it will cost you 3BB when he donks 5th when you brick.

Some of these things are opponent dependent obv, but there are spots to call 3rd w/the big pair and raise w/the over-kickers if you are going to free cards.

Check out this thread: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/2-Other-Poker-Games/topics/5722-10-20-K88?

This should help explain some of the good reasons to raise there.

The QQ4 hand to start the video. We raise 6th with 4 hearts showing after opponent donks into us. Opponent then calls. Are we betting 7th as a bluff to try to get 2 pair or a set to fold if opponent checks to us, or is this suicide?

The QQ4 hand to start the video. We raise 6th with 4 hearts showing after opponent donks into us. Opponent then calls. Are we betting 7th as a bluff to try to get 2 pair or a set to fold if opponent checks to us, or is this suicide?

Have to know your opponent, as only TAGs-tags will fold such hands, maybe baby 2-pairs will get folded. But getting KK or AA UI to fold would be good.

Could you add an exact time-stamp? Or better yet, time-links to the hands you have questions about. Please watch this video on how to use the new Flash Player: http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/866-Using-the-Flash-Video-Player

Check out this thread: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/2-Other-Poker-Games/topics/5722-10-20-K88?

This should help explain some of the good reasons to raise there.

Sick thread Joe, tx for the post.