Great that Oink gets his own series! Will watch when I get home. Hopefully this will be more impressing than the Danish hockey assasins I saw yesterday.

Good stuff!

Could u perhaps discuss the techniques u use to decide pf stategy more precisely? For instance when u are tightning up ur range in a 2/5 structure is that based on calculations or are u just thinking 'In theory I need to tighten up => I remove the bottom part of my range'? The reason I ask is that it sounds very, very difficult to know stuff like this in practice.

There are a few different ways to find good pf strategies:

1) Analytic approach (basically stove)

2) Statitic approach (looking at big databases to see what hands are winners (stox uses both these approaches in his book)

3) Adjustments in directions dictated by Poker theory. By this I mean that u have a basic strategy (from 1) and 2), for instance) and then u make qualified guesses how to adjust it based on specific situations. These guesses have no numerical support (not based on simulations).

4) Table experience. Very tricky since these things takes forever to converge.

Hope this makes sese!

I don't think I could play this way (since I'm not emotionally equipped for this kind of savage variance), but it must be fun as hell to do it and do it well.

I think oink has a lot less variance than standard tags...

This is absolutely terrifying for my little TAG-ish brain to watch. I can't even fathom peeling in some of these spots or opening these kinds of hands, but Oink clearly has a very logical thought process for his decisions. Very illuminating to see what goes through the mind of a high caliber player who plays a VERY different style than most and makes it profitable.

As I said above, you'll have to watch this several times to understand exactly what he's thinking. It all makes sense, but at first viewing, it may look scary. The one thing he's doing is attacking TAGs and exploiting their weaknesses. He looks like a fish, but he eats like a real shark. What is more scary is there isn't any exploitable weakness in his play. What are you going to do, put in more bets, tighten up and get robbed blind, open up and play right into his hands because he does this all the time and you don't? Yikes.

Oink, one thing that might be cool is for you to post your stats after these sessions. I'm guessing your around 40/28 this time, or maybe even in the 40s/30s.

I did really like the points Oink made about attacking TAGs. I feel like it happens to me a lot and it would help to know how to combat it and do it myself.

@ all

Thanks for the comments. I hope you enjoyed the vid and can use it for something good.

Regarding variance: My SD as measured in PT is 20-21BB/100 which is higher than what most TAGs have. So yeaf my style has more variance in absolute measures. But since I am also fortunate enough to beat my games for a nice WR around 3BB my swings dont feel as bad. (My swings are bigger but my trend is steeper so I dont get into that many big downers)


@ Sushi

My preflop chart is developed on personal results but you obviously have to start somewhere. I started with Stoxtrader's chart in his (very good) book and took it from there. I use to have a huge 600k db in which I could get a fair idea of how hands just outside Stox chart where playing EV wise. In this context its extremely omportant to know that playing hands even if they are sligghtly -EV can be profitable overall. The one thing I have noticed since quitting the 25/18 style and moving past 30/20 to looser is that a lot of TAGs at 15/30 and below will view you as bad automatically based on PF stats and will as a result give way too much action which is huge for your big hands.

So to answer your question

1) For 3-betting and coldcalling and defendinding my BB.
2) For pretty much everything. Thank you PT!
3) This I use for adjusting to rake and blind structures. I.e My range is basically developed for a 10/20 game and then I tighten up a few clicks for 5/10 and a a few more for 3/6 and I loosen up for 15/30.
4) I try not to because the human mind have a tendency to be rather selective in its memory. PT ftw!


@ Cactus Jack

yes I am sorry I didnt show my PT stats at the end. In all honesty this is a mistake on my part as I usually do this when making vids. I can tell you right now that in the first 4 episodes I dont do this but in the 5th I show my stats for all 5 episodes.

I can also tell you that the style I am playing in the vids results in around 38-40/29-30 5-6 handed. With an ATSB in the late 50'es, a FSB around 70 and a FBB around 30. In the 5/10 game here in episode 1 I play somewhat tighter. In upcoming episodes at 15/30 specifically I play a lot more hands in particular around the blinds.


@ Willem

Thanks for the constructive questions.

To answer your questions:

1) Rake has a big impact. Increasing the rake from around 1.5BB/100 to 3.5BB/100 is making a lot of hands -EV in a static setting (i.e. in a setting where the players are the same but rake is increased by some outside source). However, what you also need to remember is that your average opponent at 2/4 is gonna be a lot worse than your average opponent at 10/20 which is working in the other direction and suggestion a looser style.

While I tend to agree with you that a 40/30 style will be tough to make +EV at 2/4 I will urge you to have an open mind regarding this. I seriously doubt it would be "suicide" to play this style at 2/4 but there is no way either of us can back up our claims. So again I urger you to keep an open mind for your own sake. I use to think that 25/18 was optimal for 5-6 handed and 3 years ago everybody at 2p2 "was sure" that 22/18 was good 25/18 was LAGTAG and 30/22 was suboptimal.

So again: Keep an open mind! The closed "TAG-is-best-and-clearly-40/30-is-stupid" mindset is gonna be detrimental for your developments as a poker player. I am not saying you have that mindset, just saying you shouldnt :)

2) First of I think you get the action wrong. I was in the BB with 87s and OTB opened with SB coldcalling. This spot is very different than being against OTB and CO because in the latter case ranges are clearly wider but we also cant get position vs the coldcaller and probable weak player. With T9s against a CO open and OTB coldcall I wouldnt 3-bet in the BB ever and only consider it in the SB is special cases.

3) yes if can expect him to fold a low pair betting gets obviously get better. However, I do disagree on the outlook of this happening. The player coldcalled in the SB suggesting he is weak/bad implying to me that pairs wont be folded even on that card which is a good card for us to bluff against a hand reader.

But yes with our good draw with 12-15 outs when behind it cant be a big mistake to bet. I just dont think we are ever ahead and I doubt we get better hands to fold except maybe A highs. So while I dont hate betting I need an indication of villain actually being capable of folding a pair before I do.

MMMMMM, popcorn.

I'll just sit and watch. This oughta be good.

Hey PygmyHero

Well its just a starting chart. Pm me at 2p2 if you are interested.

BTW it isnt excel but some shareware excel knock off and I am not sure you can read it if you have the real excel.

Hi Campi

- AK

No its not standard but I think its a play you should consider. In particular OOP. Let me start by saying that its a no brainer cap multiway and its only HU I would call the 3-bet.

Think of it this way.

When you cap and he has a pp and flop misses you then what: You c-bet he raises and you hate life on turn and/or river because calling down takes you to valuetown and folding may have you fold the best hand.

When you call and the flop misses you you can now just c/c flop and save not only the 1 bet PF but also the 1 bet on the flop when he raises your c-bet.

When you cap and an A or K flops: You c-bet and he shuts down lower pp's

When you call and an A K flops: You c/r and no one believes you or you get good action from dominated hands because "ZOMG you didnt cap PF so you can have AK". And more importantly: You now get that bet in that you "missed" PF!!


Basically calling PF allows you to decide whether or not you want to put that extra bet in on god flops in stead of capping preflop. It is using the fact that everyone c-bets 100% which allows you to call PF and then make the choice.

I'd be much more inclined to cap IP and I will still also cap OOP for balance vs players I play with a lot.


Regarding flop c/r on low boards. Well its certainly a more profitable value c/r vs a guy who you know calls down light and vs an unknown it might not be the play, but even at 5/10 people dont tend to fold A high on low boards. Also c/r 227 flops represents a hand that does not look like yours which you can utilize when an A or K turns and villain has a dominated hand - yay bet/3-bet! :)



- 96s

I dont think betting out is bad but I do believe that a c/r will give players the chance to put in a bet with a lot of hands that wont call.


- J9s
¨
Well it all depends on ranges. But vs most ranges at 5/10 and above - not just party but also stars and ftp - J9s is a very easy defend vs a button steal.

I'd be much more inclined to cap IP and I will still also cap OOP for balance vs players I play with a lot.

Never capping OOP (not even with AA) is actually even more balanced. You are hardly giving up anything since your opponent will always put in that extra bet on the flop when he makes a continuation bet. Of course, never capping OOP may not fit in an aggressive preflop strategy. But it's something you may want to consider if villain is a good player.

Another observation about your play. Even though you are quite aggressive preflop, you seem much more passive postflop. I agree with you postflop style since any more aggression has you either spewing or folding too much.

Exactly what benefits does playing so loose and aggressive preflop have. I am coming up with two things:
1) By more aggression preflop, your opponents are more likely to fold postflop. So you increase the chance to win without having the best hand.
2) By more aggression preflop, your opponents are playing more straitforward and more honest after the flop. This allows you to make more accurate decisions, allowing you to win a few extra bets, or save a few bets in the post flop play.

Am I missing some other benefits?

I am playing 2/4 and 3/6 FL 6-max. My PF stats are 25/18 and attempt to steal blinds is about 35%. How do you feel about these stats in those rather small limits? And I would also like to know what do you think about playing with those PF standards in bigger limits, say 5/10 and 10/20. Is it even possible to be a winning player with that kind of TAG style?

I have tried to understand the ideas behind your PF raising standards, but I just feel that you might be going a little over the top for my taste. However, I am eager learning more about your thinking process and ideas. One thing that pop up in my mind was that it would be (at least in my opinion) very nice to see you doing a Powerpoint presentation type video (or two), where you go over your PF opening ranges from different positions and also your SB and BB defending standards against different opponents (with different ranges). I mean a similar thing that Danzasmack did in a couple of first episodes in his Price Is Right series.

Finally, I would like to thank you for your awesome videos. You are very good at making your thought processes clear for us lesser limidonks.

P.S. I would also be very interested about the PF Excel sheet that everyone is talking about. (Maybe a screenshot could be posted in the forums.)

I have tried to understand the ideas behind your PF raising standards, but I just feel that you might be going a little over the top for my taste. However, I am eager learning more about your thinking process and ideas.

One central point I think Oink is trying to make is that optimal preflop play is largely situational. The main objective is to get into profitable situations, like playing, preferably in position, against bad players, or to play aggressively against fit-or-fold players, or whatever. So large part of Oink's preflop standards aren't really standards at all, but rather decisions made on the fly, based on all the knowledge that is available at the time.

Another point is that even with default open-raising you have to be open-minded and experiment with loosening your range and see how you fare. This, of course, is going to have serious sample size issues, but looking at similar hands and perhaps grouping some of them you can get this sort of broad idea to what extent you can loosen up.

Thanks Oink. I got it this time. I definitely understand what you're saying about not wanting to make it too available. Since I hadn't seen it I didn't realize you'd put a lot of work into it. What I mean is I have a lot of starting charts (e.g. based on Chuck's The Price is Right series, Ed Miller's SSHE, etc.) that basically required no work on my part and I wasn't sure what your chart was like.

But anyway, I guess all that just makes me more appreciative that you're willing to share at all. Again, thanks much!

To you questions.

- Do I believe 25/18 can win at small stakes? Definetely yes!

- Do I believe you can win more by loosening up: Most likely yes! But its not a magic button you push and then your WR increases. You have to adjust your postflop play as well and its not as simple as that.

- Do I believe 25/18 can win at 10/20+? Yes definetely. But at these stakes I am 100% sure that it will be a suboptimal preflop strategy unless you are extremely good at taking advantage of a tight image.

I dont have the sufficient high stakes experience but I am sure you can win even at the highest stakes playing an old school TAG style.

It is relieving to know that the old school TAG style is not completely out of fashion, since (at least for now) I feel a little uncomfortable playing the more creative hands. However, I will definetely be looking to also add some creative hands to my opening repertoire when I find the situation profitable. Maybe I can that way step by step become a LAGTAG monster like you.

I dont know if I will ever do a power point presention video. So far I am making this series and DC also have an additional 4 videos they can use as stand alones.

Basically when it comes to video requests its the DC guys you have to ask, not me. I am not the one making them kinda decisions I am only brought in for preflop spewing :)

That was just a suggestion that pop up in my head. It might have been a nice continuation to the preflop premier that Danzasmack did. Kind of changing the gear from TAG to almost complete maniac. :)

Regarding putting the spreadsheet out publicly and for free I have my reservations. Its something that I have put hours of work into and while I am fine shipping it to DC members that I know and who contribute to the DC fora I am not fine with the spreadsheet being available for anyone. That is unless I am compensated financially - which is a debate not to be started here ;)

Well, that sounds completely reasonable.

Hey Pygmy

I assuming you talk about 3-betting ranges and calling ranges in the blinds.

Regarding 3-betting:

As you may notice my 3-betting ranges are when faced with a raise by a xx/20 player with an ATSB of 40. Based on this info we can pinpoint his range in each position rather precisely. Most of those player will have a range of

UTG: 14-16
HJ: 22-25
CO: 30-33
OTB: 38-43


So now its about using stove.

So how much eq do we need to 3-bet?

Well if we are in the HJ and faced with an UTG raise compared to us being in the SB faced with a OTB raise we need to consider the following facts

- In the first scenario we will have 4 players behind us who will cap say top 6% on average. This turns out to a probability of around 22% of us being capped.

- In the second scenario we only have one player behind us but he certainly isnt capping more than maybe 8-10%. He might be calling 2 bets a little wider tho but this doesnt hurt us as much as being capped.

So the probability of being capped behind us means that we need a bit more equity in the first scenario than the latter.


But we are not done yet:

- In the first scenario villains range will be say 55, A9o, A7s, KJo, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s. Of this range the majority of hands will either have SD value UI or make a good pair or a monster hand like a flush or a straight.

- Now compare that to a range of top 40% OTB including hands like 98o, K8o, Q7s. Now there is a larger proportion of his range that does not have SD value UI AND a larger proportion of his range will make weak hands like 3'rd and 4'th pair.


This means that our implied folding equity in the first scenario is less than in the latter. Again speaking for a higher eq required for 3-betting.


But we still aint done :)

- In the first scenario with the range of top 15%. Assuming villain caps top 6% we will be capped by him with a probability of around 40%.

- In the second scenario against top 40%. Assuming villain caps say top 9% then we will only be capped with around 23% probability.


This also means that in the first scenario we need more eq to 3-bet.


So overall I'd say in order for 3-betting I would need at least 50% eq and prolly more in the HJ faced with UTG raise. But I would 3-bet in the SB vs an OTB open with no more than 42-45% eq.


Also because when in the HJ facing UTG it is more likely that the pot ends up multiway I would be a bit looser with suited multiway hands like KQs and a bit tighter with hands like ATo or AJo. (I find a 3-bet in the HJ with AJo vs UTG very thin at best). Where as in the SB vs OTB I will try to 3-bet a little more with hands with SD value like K8o and a little less with multiway hands like 97s.


Am I making sense?


Edit: All this didnt consider the fact that we will be OOP in the SB. Obv this means we need more eq to 3-bet because our (reverse) implied odds and (reverse) implied folding equity will be less to our advantage. I hope you get the general point tho, so think about it as hero being OTB vs CO compared to hero being in the HJ vs UTG. You need more eq to 3-bet in the latter because of the points I made.

Perfect Oink. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time.

No

Ranges are suggestions more than guidelines

As you can also see I have multiple ranges for the button and SB simply because Pf in those spots is so situational.


Right now I play bad. I have been running bad for a while and while I believe it dont affct my game, well it does. The consequence hereof is that I right now play tighter than what is recomended in that PF chart. I am not at the top of my game and I have a sucky image ---> I need to tighten up.


The PF chart I gave you and others is a guideline that will have you play anywhere between 35/25 and 42/30 for 5-6 handed depending on game conditions. As others have noted the trick is to know how to adjust. I would strongly advice NOT to play that style if you do not know what you are doing. Going from 25/18 to 40/30 is bound to be a trainwreck! (Sorry, but it is)

sweet vid! you do a very good job of explaining how and why you play certain hands from various positions against specific types of opponents, will def be watching the rest of the series!