Poker Video: Stud/Stud 8 by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Nice video.

Have you figured out the FT replayer, yet?

Thank you!

Nice video.

Have you figured out the FT replayer, yet?

Ha, no, I still f-it up all the time, LOL.

Thank you!

I could have done better but been a while for a live-Stud8 vid + two tables, but I feel I did get some good material in there.

FWIW, there are two sets of arrows in the replayer. The set in the lower right (where you so desperately clicked) only controls the flow of action of the currently viewed hand.

The arrows in the upper right are used to navigate between hands. I'm sure I saw you using them before.

Time Link to 00:25:48

This isn't a jam on 5th? A3457 vs a 24K and 36Q board?

Time Link to 00:38:25

KQT three diamonds hand, dead diamonds, dead jack, etc. with an Ace completing UTG. My question is if the game were stud high, would you call here? Or is it so dead that its flat dead even in high only.

Time Link to 00:42:29

Jeez what kind of incriminating pics do you have of howard lederer? Your 3rd street hands this session have been monstrous.

Time Link to 00:51:15

Yeah but if he has aces up you are in fine shape with 3 overcards to hit. Also since you have the case 2 aces and he doesn't know it, I feel you have a ton of playability on the big streets with a huge information gain. I'd continue until he actually catches another scary low card.

Time Link to 00:53:06

Yeah but there are 2 dead 3s and only one dead ace, I guess he is a favorite to catch either a 3 or his other holecard rather than the ace so you are a hefty favorite vs his queens up betting range. But this strikes me as one of those spots where you need to be right > 75% of the time because the third guy is freerolling you guys if he made his low, so you are just getting value for your half the pot.

11:40:42 AM Chris: im watching joe tall stud/8 ghost vid right now
11:40:44 AM Chris: that he put up yesterday
11:40:47 AM Chris: its actually really good
11:40:50 AM HOWMANY: omg will watch asap
11:40:52 AM Chris: i am forced to admit he plays this game well
11:41:14 AM Chris: i see myself playing a lot of hands differently
11:41:17 AM Chris: and realizing his play is way better

This isn't a jam on 5th? A3457 vs a 24K and 36Q board?

Hrmmmmm, this is very interesting and I've rethought it a bit and I'm stuck. Here is my initial reply:

OK first of all, I get called in two spots when I open complete, bet 4th, get raised by the 2-flush xx4Ks, and cold called by the xx36o. The 2-flush is 100% live in spades.

________________________________
I hit my low on 5th, with a dead-ish wheel, dead-ish 6-low draw. I donk out and get raised by the 3-flush with 2-low cards. Now, I'm 99% sure this player has a flush, I can only hope he has brick-flush cards in the hole but 3rd was paint and the player in question is standard-ish TAG, where as he'll play 3-flushes but only when he can pair. And since this is not razz, he has a flush, he's on the scoop-free-roll, so this is going to be capped. Such a hand has over 50% equity, might be as high as 60%, going to guess that I might have high as 40% but I am looking at only 1/2 the pot.
_________________________________

Man, I guess I gotta run all outcomes to find the EV. Just talked to Rob about it, he agrees.

KQT three diamonds hand, dead diamonds, dead jack, etc. with an Ace completing UTG. My question is if the game were stud high, would you call here? Or is it so dead that its flat dead even in high only.

Yes way too dead for Stud-hi. As a drill you should list all the reasons why, honestly. You should be able to come up with at least 4-reasons this is a fold, even in stud-hi.

Yeah but if he has aces up you are in fine shape with 3 overcards to hit. Also since you have the case 2 aces and he doesn't know it, I feel you have a ton of playability on the big streets with a huge information gain. I'd continue until he actually catches another scary low card.

It's a fold. No time to work on it but this is a RIO nightmare, he clearly has you free-rolled for low and you can only hope he has Aces-up.

11:40:42 AM Chris: im watching joe tall stud/8 ghost vid right now
11:40:44 AM Chris: that he put up yesterday
11:40:47 AM Chris: its actually really good
11:40:50 AM HOWMANY: omg will watch asap
11:40:52 AM Chris: i am forced to admit he plays this game well
11:41:14 AM Chris: i see myself playing a lot of hands differently
11:41:17 AM Chris: and realizing his play is way better

Thanks....I think.

Thanks....I think.

The fact I even watched the vid should tell you a lot about the respect I give your stud advice, I watch like no videos ever. Thanks for the replies, will think on them a bit

Time Link to 00:28:34

I think your completion with an ace behind here on the right will sometimes fold out a player who limped (5L)5 since he may give you credit for AA. I've seen it not uncommonly at these limits.

Possible missed steal (open complete when folded to) with the razz junk on the left.

Time Link to 00:50:00

upper right corner for arrows to go to previous hands.
lower arrows for running through the current hand displayed.

Easily one of my favorite vids that has come out in quite some time. I know you are putting off making a full fledged stud8 series for a few seasons but if you can pop out a good stud8 ghost here and there I'd still be very happy.

With regards to 3rd street play in Stud 8, does it play similar to Stud Hi were we are looking to raise and 'steal' the pot with most of our playable hands even in early position?

For instance if i had 347 type gapper in early postion and most of my cards were live and i had a mix of high and low door cards behind me, should i be looking to complete here or open limp?

I understand with our monster hands like a live 234 or something we are always looking raise and build a pot, but with gappers im not so sure.

With regards to 3rd street play in Stud 8, does it play similar to Stud Hi were we are looking to raise and 'steal' the pot with most of our playable hands even in early position?

For instance if i had 347 type gapper in early postion and most of my cards were live and i had a mix of high and low door cards behind me, should i be looking to complete here or open limp?

I understand with our monster hands like a live 234 or something we are always looking raise and build a pot, but with gappers im not so sure.

It's much harder to steal in Stud8, there so much less 3rd street folding equity so be careful.

234 is not a monster in Stud8, it just doesnt make good enough high hands. A hand like 567, is much stronger ast 7s up has a better chance to scoop then 4s up, etc.

Razz hands, which 347 is on the border of, are playable, but only for pure steals, and bring-in defenses vs high hands.

Time Link to 00:04:23

You don't open TT|9 here? You have the biggest pair, and our hand is somewhat hidden for hitting a set. Seems like a standard open to me.

You don't open TT|9 here? You have the biggest pair, and our hand is somewhat hidden for hitting a set. Seems like a standard open to me.

With 3 lows left to act and one nine, and since the nine is our door card, we need that card live to create folding equity since our hand is clearly high and in addition, we have Tens, they are much more easily counterfeited on later streets, it's a fold. It's much closer than you think even with random hands left to act:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Q8
ThTd|9c 19.15% (47,645 scoops, 182,076 wins hi, 105 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
**|6s 23.23% (58,455 scoops, 115,152 wins hi, 174 ties hi, 125,456 wins lo, 1,016 ties lo)
**|7h 21.47% (50,618 scoops, 102,536 wins hi, 193 ties hi, 119,070 wins lo, 928 ties lo)
**|9h 13.10% (30,556 scoops, 88,803 wins hi, 144 ties hi, 43,083 wins lo, 414 ties lo)
**|4d 23.05% (59,337 scoops, 111,026 wins hi, 198 ties hi, 131,175 wins lo, 1,028 ties lo)

EDIT: I fucked up the below sim before as it was Stud Hi instead of Stud8.

What if we had JJ instead, it's a hair better, but near the same.

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Q8
JhJd|9c 20.16% (50,393 scoops, 191,417 wins hi, 88 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
**|6s 22.92% (57,135 scoops, 111,995 wins hi, 188 ties hi, 125,589 wins lo, 1,032 ties lo)
**|7h 21.23% (49,993 scoops, 100,267 wins hi, 200 ties hi, 119,083 wins lo, 973 ties lo)
**|9h 13.02% (30,689 scoops, 88,022 wins hi, 166 ties hi, 42,679 wins lo, 404 ties lo)
**|4d 22.68% (58,308 scoops, 107,874 wins hi, 208 ties hi, 130,724 wins lo, 1,063 ties lo)

QQ? (note how worse off the QQ is because of the dead Q.)

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Q8
QhQd|9c 17.72% (43,048 scoops, 169,515 wins hi, 49 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
**|6s 23.45% (59,081 scoops, 117,140 wins hi, 201 ties hi, 125,619 wins lo, 1,041 ties lo)
**|7h 22.07% (53,157 scoops, 107,294 wins hi, 182 ties hi, 119,577 wins lo, 929 ties lo)
**|9h 13.46% (31,992 scoops, 92,389 wins hi, 155 ties hi, 42,564 wins lo, 433 ties lo)
**|4d 23.31% (60,952 scoops, 113,265 wins hi, 207 ties hi, 131,035 wins lo, 998 ties lo)

KK looks stronger.

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Q8
KhKd|9c 22.23% (56,082 scoops, 210,673 wins hi, 82 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
**|6s 22.20% (55,200 scoops, 106,041 wins hi, 217 ties hi, 124,995 wins lo, 1,066 ties lo)
**|7h 20.72% (48,565 scoops, 95,280 wins hi, 200 ties hi, 119,158 wins lo, 974 ties lo)
**|9h 12.86% (30,872 scoops, 86,103 wins hi, 205 ties hi, 42,797 wins lo, 448 ties lo)
**|4d 21.99% (56,223 scoops, 101,445 wins hi, 213 ties hi, 130,799 wins lo, 1,034 ties lo)

Just to show the power of the almighty ace in this game:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: Q8
AhAd|9c 29.12% (99,730 scoops, 235,260 wins hi, 68 ties hi, 17,230 wins lo, 113 ties lo)
**|6s 20.32% (57,709 scoops, 100,490 wins hi, 203 ties hi, 104,040 wins lo, 643 ties lo)
**|7h 18.88% (49,294 scoops, 88,443 wins hi, 170 ties hi, 100,581 wins lo, 612 ties lo)
**|9h 12.11% (33,705 scoops, 82,133 wins hi, 153 ties hi, 33,958 wins lo, 210 ties lo)
**|4d 19.58% (54,883 scoops, 93,288 wins hi, 178 ties hi, 106,004 wins lo, 661 ties lo)

Time Link to 00:52:31

Hey Joe, what do you do with this pair of queens hand if the other queens with the ace showing bets out on 6th street? And what do you do if you and the other queens check and the guy going for low bets? Finally what do you do if you both check, the guy going for low bets and the other pair of queens raises? Thanks for the video, I've just started learning stud 8 and it's a fun game. Hope to become good at it someday.

Hey Joe, what do you do with this pair of queens hand if the other queens with the ace showing bets out on 6th street?

Looks like a fold, as Aces-up will always lead out and I dont have the best QQ anymore and I"m getting bet into when I raised the previous street.

And what do you do if you and the other queens check and the guy going for low bets?

Closing the action with a great price, calling for sure.

Finally what do you do if you both check, the guy going for low bets and the other pair of queens raises?

Pretty easy muck.

Thanks for the video, I've just started learning stud 8 and it's a fun game. Hope to become good at it someday.

Well then you are going to like next season!

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/7-Research-Development-/324781--Season-One-2011-schedule

Time Link to 00:35:57

Hey Joe, just wondering about this spot. When you bet out on 6th you hover like you would have re-popped a raise had he not folded. Were you ready to 3-bet if he'd raised or was your pointer just hovering there randomly?

I've been watching this video trying to follow the action and figure what people are likely holding.

(am super pleased that my learning might be headed in somewhat of a right direction when that Q3 popped you earlier in the video and I actually thought 'Nooo! Queens in the hole!)

So I'm wondering what your thoughts are here and what you are putting him on for limping with that 6 door and hearts somewhat dead...

If he had three low cards with the six as his door, especially with a wired two flush, wouldn't it have been worth a steal from his point of view, even with two lower door cards behind him, and just slow up if you both call his complete and he doesn't catch good on 4th?

What are you putting him on when he catches the 2 on 4th and just calls you after seeing two more hearts killed and you catching good? Pair of sixes? If he 62 in the hole wouldn't he have put in a raise here?

You mentioned that he might have paired his deuce but one is dead and calling, so what do you then put him on when he sees that and overcalls your 53 bet? And then when he calls with the 9 on 5th?

Oh, I guess if he raises you there the only things you really need to worry about are A4, 54 in the hole (and he would likely have completed with both, plus your board heavily discounts either of those) and trips somehow, which you would have heard about by now right?...

...hmm...maybe I just answered my own question, lol.

Really loving these videos

Time Link to 00:14:30

He actually started w/ 33Q, you forgot FT switches the door cards and that you had 45A.

Time Link to 00:42:52

Funny you mention never having two rolled up hands in a row. On lock poker I had rolled up fours back to back w/ the same exact suits. It's 424-1 to be rolled up and 5524-1 to be dealt a particular rolled up hand. Just when you think you've seen everything...