Episode One
Episode One
In Episode one of 2x6, Vanessa takes you through an introduction to the importance of preflop hand selection, being able to make the nuts, and position, position, position.
This Series: 2 X 6
Vanessa shows whitelime how to not lose $300k playing PLO in this small stakes PLO series! The transition from NLHE to PLO is difficult, but it's a road Vanessa walked down herself. Watch her analyze whitelime's leaks and follow his progress. Can an elite high stakes No Limit player make the leap to Omaha? Tune in and find out!
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Comments for Episode One
- BrentonMac
- Deuce High
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88 posts
Joined 01/08
Am I the only one not getting any sound with this?
- bottomset
- Pair of Deuces
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118 posts
Joined 02/07
Am I the only one not getting any sound with this?
no sound for me either
- tiil
- Deuce High
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5 posts
Joined 01/08
No sound in the flash version, and the mp4 didn't play in quicktime player on mac os x. Vlc played it ok but clearly something went wrong here.
- shyturtle27
- Pair of Deuces
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117 posts
Joined 02/08
Downloaded WMV and played great. Awesome video. Can't find info like this elsewhere I don't think. Looking forward to some hands.
- Raise_The_Lord
- Deuce High
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3 posts
Joined 01/08
God bless you vanessa and whitelime, this was so awesomo !
- rusty trombone
- Deuce High
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91 posts
Joined 01/08
just great.
vanessa could explain poker to a puerto rican (maybe).
- chipolino
- Deuce High
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2 posts
Joined 04/07
Sweet. Good intro vid for a noob like me. Thank you Vanessa.
- Entity
- Founder
- Quad Deuces
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2799 posts
Joined 11/06
It looks like the Flash version got corrupted guys. Dunno how unfortunately but I'm reproducing it right now, which will take about another 20 minute to produce and probably 30-35 to upload. Sorry for any inconvenience.
Rob
- Entity
- Founder
- Quad Deuces
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2799 posts
Joined 11/06
Sound seems fixed now guys.
Rob
- TeeJayOrTj
- Deuce High
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4 posts
Joined 02/07
Vanessa, of course you hit your backdoor flush in semi fake HH. He has 3456 or 4456 and your super dog. Your so lucky.
PS: All in love. Just wanted to make my first post a dig at your cash game luckbox
Edit: Ohh yeah sweet video
- HaiaN
- Deuce High
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44 posts
Joined 01/08
I lllllove the duck vs donkey story xD
- Caseiras
- Deuce High
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8 posts
Joined 01/08
is it advised to become a good NL player before trying to learn PLO? i currently play 50NL
- bellatrix
- Deuce High
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20 posts
Joined 12/07
69anything! 
One question about when you say the gap in the run:
You say when the gap in the run is higher, you make more nuts. But isn't the gap in 8764 lower than in 8654. Like, isn't 5 lower than 7? Maybe I am misunderstanding your notation, so I just wanna make sure for the next videos what you mean by that.
Thanks for the great video.
- Mongaloid
- Deuce High
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5 posts
Joined 01/08
69anything!
One question about when you say the gap in the run:
You say when the gap in the run is higher, you make more nuts. But isn't the gap in 8764 lower than in 8654. Like, isn't 5 lower than 7? Maybe I am misunderstanding your notation, so I just wanna make sure for the next videos what you mean by that.
Thanks for the great video.
Enjoyed the video, but was also confused by this. Also will this series be tailored to 6max or fullring?
- Hypnotic
- Deuces Full
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883 posts
Joined 02/08
I was curious about the 6 max or full ring, too.
However, the concepts in this video would apply to both as it was more about general pre flop hand strength analysis.
- crashwhips
- Deuce High
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2 posts
Joined 02/08
I don't think your logic about the higher gap being much less valuable than the lower gap in wrap hands is correct. Check it out:
4568: 23x flop-13 outs to nuts, 74x flop-13 outs to nuts, 57x flop-10 outs to nuts 67x flop-6 outs to nuts, 78 flop-3 outs to nuts
4678: 35x flop-13 outs to nuts, 45x flop-13 outs to nuts, 57x flop-10 outs to nuts, 65x flop-10 outs to nuts, 9Tx-3 outs to nuts
So as you can see, the two hands are virtually identical, with only 4 nut outs of difference between the two in all the different combination of wraps combined. I really don't see why you would treat these two hands much differently or any differently at all preflop. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
- swingdoc
- Deuce High
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1 post
Joined 01/08
Awesome video, Vanessa. I've always wanted to find a good introduction to PLO somewhere and voila!
- jxrFR
- Deuce High
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15 posts
Joined 03/08
One stated goal of the series is to be able to beat $100 PLO tables, but what does that mean in terms of winrate? I have been told that PLO plays twice as big as NLH meaning that 7 or 8 poker tracker bets per 100 hands is the goal, is this correct?
- Ratamahatta
- Deuce High
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10 posts
Joined 01/08
(4 choose 3) is the same as (4 choose 4-3) = (4 choose 1) = 4 =/= 6 no?
- fslexcduck
- Exec Producer
- Pair of Deuces
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175 posts
Joined 10/07
I don't think your logic about the higher gap being much less valuable than the lower gap in wrap hands is correct. Check it out:
4568: 23x flop-13 outs to nuts, 74x flop-13 outs to nuts, 57x flop-10 outs to nuts 67x flop-6 outs to nuts, 78 flop-3 outs to nuts
4678: 35x flop-13 outs to nuts, 45x flop-13 outs to nuts, 57x flop-10 outs to nuts, 65x flop-10 outs to nuts, 9Tx-3 outs to nuts
So as you can see, the two hands are virtually identical, with only 4 nut outs of difference between the two in all the different combination of wraps combined. I really don't see why you would treat these two hands much differently or any differently at all preflop. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
yeah i meant to post a correction, so thank you. it does wind up making a difference when you are playing, but I know my math was quite incorrect in the slide. i just had a major brain fart.
but notice - there is also the question of when you do make the nuts on the turn, will it remain the nuts by the river - i think you'll notice that on your nut flops for the first hand, there are more cards that can peel off on the river that will put higher straights out there. (double check because first off this isn't my strong point and i'm pretty tired right now) once again, this winds up being a factor (mostly in multiway pots rather than heads up pots, which is something we don't get into too much during this series but i discuss a great deal in my other PLO series which will air either in season 3 or 4) but not too terribly important most of the time.
- fslexcduck
- Exec Producer
- Pair of Deuces
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175 posts
Joined 10/07
I was curious about the 6 max or full ring, too.
However, the concepts in this video would apply to both as it was more about general pre flop hand strength analysis.
exactly - this analysis i did was to get you thinking about the kinds of things you want to be thinking about when going about your game. in terms of a chart of hands to play, it's kind of tough - but after you put in some hours and watch this series, hopefully you'll have a good idea of what a reasonable starting range is for 6max at least.
- fslexcduck
- Exec Producer
- Pair of Deuces
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175 posts
Joined 10/07
69anything!
One question about when you say the gap in the run:
You say when the gap in the run is higher, you make more nuts. But isn't the gap in 8764 lower than in 8654. Like, isn't 5 lower than 7? Maybe I am misunderstanding your notation, so I just wanna make sure for the next videos what you mean by that.
Thanks for the great video.
yeah, thanks for the correction - that was just me misspeaking. i meant when the gap in the hand is lower, you make the nuts more often (and keep the nuts more often too!)
- hen
- Deuce High
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68 posts
Joined 01/08
i think the sound is still not working on the sample for those not logged in, if this matters, sweet vid, ty
- BCage
- Deuce High
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10 posts
Joined 02/08
Pretty sweet MS Paint action on the example hands.
- Entity
- Founder
- Quad Deuces
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2799 posts
Joined 11/06
i think the sound is still not working on the sample for those not logged in, if this matters, sweet vid, ty
Thanks much for pointing that out, I fixed it.
Rob
- DaLouis
- Deuce High
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5 posts
Joined 03/08
Great! Now I can hopefully win back the 800$ I donked off in PLO before signing up here :D
- PygmyHero
- Quad Deuces
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1139 posts
Joined 08/07
Hey, I was just checking this series out for fun. I liked the first video and learned quite a bit from it. I'm not a PLO player so I may have made a mistake here, but I think some of the info about the high gap versus low gap (e.g. 8764 vs. 8654) is inaccurate. I know there was an error in the video but I think the correction in this thread is still wrong.
Imagine x is a non-relevant card (not necessarily a low card - it's actually easier for x to be a K although you'd really rather have it be a 2 on the T9x flop).
8764
53x: 13 outs (four 2's, three 4's, three 6's, three 7's), 13 outs to the nuts
54x: 13 outs (four 3's, three 6's, three 7's, three 8's), 13 outs to the nuts
65x: 17 outs (four 3's, three 4's, three 7's, three 8's, four 9's), 11 outs to the nuts (the 3's, 4's, 9's)
75x: 17 outs (four 3's, three 4's, three 6's, three 8's, four 9's), 11 outs to the nuts (the 3's, 4's, 9's)
85x: 13 outs (three 4's, three 6's, three 7's, four 9's), 7 outs to the nuts (4's, 9's)
T9x: 13 outs (three6's, three 7's, three 8's, four J's), 3 outs to the nuts (6's)
8654
32x: 13 outs (four A's, three 4's, three 5's, three 6's), 13 outs to the nuts
74x: 13 outs (four 3's, three 5's, three 6's, three 8's), 13 outs to the nuts
75x: 17 outs (four 3's, three 4's, three 6's, three 8's four 9's), 11 outs to the nuts (3's, 4's, 9's)
76x: 17 outs (four 3's, three 4's, three 5's, three 8's, four 9's), 7 outs to the nuts (3's, 4's)
87x: 13 outs (three 4's, three 5's, three 6's, four 9's), 3 outs to the nuts (4's)
97x: 13 outs (three 5's, three 6's, three 8's, four T's), 3 outs to the nuts (5's)
In total each hand has 86 outs. However, 8764 has 58 nut outs (~67% of the outs), while 8654 has only 50 (~58% of the outs). So the difference in hand values is actually much greater than what was posted in this thread. From looking at the above scenarios it's clear that the hand with the higher gap loses value more quickly as the flop cards get higher.
This doesn't take into account other flops that may be favorable. Since I'm not a PLO player I don't know what these are, but I suspect that top two + a straight draw is good. In that case it should be intuitive that the hand with higher cards (i.e. lower gap) will yield stronger combo made hands + draws.
And I think Vanessa's point about not getting re-drawn is very relevant. From looking at the starting cards and flops above I think it's pretty clear that when you hit a draw on the turn your hand will be more likely to hold up when you have 8764.
- Trix
- Deuce High
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80 posts
Joined 01/08
Thought it was a pretty good introduction and it definitely cleared up some things for me. Thanks.
- guitarizt
- Pair of Deuces
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127 posts
Joined 04/08
I loved the slide with the duck and the donkey. The only part that slowed the video down was the 8654 8764 part, but I got what you were trying to say (it wasn't that bad in the video). As far as I know, there's nothing out like this yet for plo so I can't wait to get through this series.
- violtu
- Pair of Deuces
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108 posts
Joined 07/08
In total each hand has 86 outs. However, 8764 has 58 nut outs (~67% of the outs), while 8654 has only 50 (~58% of the outs).
Yes im confused as well. I used to think that 8764 is better hand than 8654. However this in this video slide says:
"when the gap in the run is high, the hand makes many more nut draws". So unless its a typo, i dont understand how.
Also in other PLO vids (namely Mad Poter series) rbk said that he preffers gap at the upper side over lower. And that he preffers gaps over no gaps.
What the hell???
- Cblanks
- Pair of Deuces
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101 posts
Joined 03/08
Thanks PygmyHero, that really cleared it up
also series is gonna rock...
- praetor
- Deuce High
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1 post
Joined 01/08
so was it a typo in the video or what?
- Mrrpb
- Pair of Deuces
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183 posts
Joined 08/08
Awesome.
69anything! sounds like a good sn imo.
- DirtBox
- Deuce High
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11 posts
Joined 04/08
What tracking programs support PLO? I notice when I have been testing out the PLO tables HEM doesn't work. Thanks.