Episode Eight

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Episode Eight

Whitelime goes solo and plays a session at $1/2. He tries to apply some of the concepts he's learned and discusses his thought process in situations where he's unsure of the correct plan of action.

tags: vanessa selbst whitelime omaha plo $200plo fslexcduck 2-tabling

This Series: 2 X 6

Vanessa shows whitelime how to not lose $300k playing PLO in this small stakes PLO series! The transition from NLHE to PLO is difficult, but it's a road Vanessa walked down herself. Watch her analyze whitelime's leaks and follow his progress. Can an elite high stakes No Limit player make the leap to Omaha? Tune in and find out!

Previous Video: Episode Seven

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Comments for Episode Eight

MostlyBS
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 04/08

Episode 8? ZIs this the last video of this series?

Posted Apr 24, 2008 8:33pm

blumpster
Deuce High
75 posts
Joined 01/07

Definitely showed a lot of improvement in your game under Vanessa's tutelage. A few comments about the session:

1. Didn't like the 333 fold. Yes a lot of turn cards suck, but your hand is too strong and you have position. I like a call there are reevaluate on the turn.

2. Didn't like the lead with KKK when you flatted preflop in the SB and took the flop 3-ways vs the button open. On the dry K73r flop I would expect the button (a regular who is probably aggressive enough and who will realize it's a good flop to c-bet) to c-bet such a high percentage of the time. You want to mix it up but in a vacuum it's a clear check/raise and that certainly should be the default here.

Nice video and series!

Posted Apr 24, 2008 9:41pm

Iryoku
Pair of Deuces
244 posts
Joined 03/08

I really disliked your stab at the pot on the 535 board with I THINK AKTx?(unsure on your hand)... Either way that was a spewy c-bet... I really hate c-betting those types of flops OOP in a 4 way pot. Just something for you to chew on. Its almost NEVER successful, and from my perspective i'm almost sure its -EV. I think you actually get played back at more in those situations then you will in NLHE and another example of how important position is.

I don't think you ever take it down enough in that spot to come out ahead. Especially given your PF raising range from OOP and how tight you were playing. If i'm your villian I'm going to be 3b you there to much to make it profitable for you ever.

Posted Apr 25, 2008 1:36am

fslexcduck
Exec Producer
Pair of Deuces
146 posts
Joined 10/07

hey emil,

good play for the most part... wanted to note a couple things:

especially with how tight you'd been playing, i would certainly loosen up a bit in position and make more blind steals (A936 suited to the ace is definitely good enough for a button open, esp. since you will take it down with a c-bet very very often). or i just caught you folding with AKT7 suited to the ace after a couple limpers... that hand is definitely good enough to raise up to either half pot or even full pot and probably get position in a 3 or 4-way pot.

This is something I didn't touch upon much with you but look for it in another series I do a little later with PLO - I stressed the importance of playing to nuts, but that is much more pertinent to multiway situations than hu situations. You made a comment where you didn't know if AKJ5dd on AT3dd board was good enough to stick in vs a pot check/raise... the consideration here should actually be whether to smooth call to trap dead money from a worse draw or to isolate in a situation where we either have the best hand or best draw. It would come down to my read, but in this situation I'd probably flat it if the situation arose with the player behind me.

Often when we have a decent hand and decent draw in PLO, we can isolate the field to create a situation where we either have the best hand or the best draw (but are unsure of which) and try to fold out better draws or better made hands and get in with good equity.

A good example of this is let's say we have a hand like 39TQss (obv played on the button due to dangler), spades to the nine, and the flop comes down T83ss. well this is a situation where we have top and bottom, a gutshot to the nuts, and a crappy flush draw. This actually is not a great flop for us to play multiway if stacks go in; however, if a situation arises where we lead, we get a caller, and one guy check/raises big (such as your hypothetical in the AKJ5 hand), we would want to stick it in to fold out a top two or even bottom set type hand and keep in a bare nut flush draw (so we have a possibility of winning unimproved) or potentially fold out a Q or K high flush draw and clean up our outs vs a middle set type hand.

Isolating in best hand or best draw scenarios is a really nice play in PLO, so if you have any questions, please do ask. Overall, nice work this season =)

Posted Apr 25, 2008 9:06am

michaelsc
Deuce High
22 posts
Joined 03/08

You definitely know all the right concepts of PLO, but you aren’t capitalizing on some areas to be more +ev.

-loosen up your game especially in position.
-expand your 3 bet range
(this allows people to 4 bet with kkxx, akj10, which is very profitable since you will have aaxx many times)
-focus on fslexduck ideas on isolating the pot so you can draw to the non-nuts at times.**
-playing aaxx differently could be more profitable.
( I don’t like the idea of limp and then reraising for a couple of reasons. First, it telegraphs your hand completely and second when you 3 bet them it doesn’t get enough of your stack in. Try raising very small, which will still entice people to three bet you and then you can four bet them getting in a high percentage of your stack in preflop)
-you played pretty tight so next time try to play real aggressive the first five minutes to develop a reverse table image.
-not just playing the cards, but playing the players like you do in holdem.
(You need to be able to categorize certain opponents’ style and play accordingly. For example, firing more barrels against the tight players and trapping the aggressive players.)

Great Video overall! I thought you did a great job trying to find their range and finding out if they had aaxx, which allowed you to make calculated decisions on the flop.

Posted May 6, 2008 8:58pm

jsnipes28
Deuce High
43 posts
Joined 06/07

reading the thoughts in this thread is almost > the video. interesting to see michaelsc on here...you've owned me quite frequently lately ftp 5/10 plo (im pez_vela). need to learn to fold 2nd nuts, need to learn to fold 2nd nuts!

Posted May 7, 2008 8:39pm

Moshmopok
Deuce High
81 posts
Joined 01/08

I'm late, but I have a few questions and a comment:

Around 3:30 - You have a fd + gs, the flop is 3-5-7 2-suited. You say this is a good flop to take it down (against 2 opponents). Why?

Around 31:40 - A6xx and a 66A board - You raise the flop hu. What hands do you expect to call, what hands to reraise?
Around 32:30 - Leading out against that aggro guy with top set KKK on dry board, was bad I thought (but I think you realised it yourself).
Around 36:30 - l/rr w/ aces - Doesn't that turn your hand face up, when you won't be able to get half your stack in most of the time? Does the short stack make a difference? Actually you l/rr once more later in the video. Isn't this a really, really exploitable play? You only do it with aces, I think, and that's the exact hand your opponents will put you on. What do you think about always entering with a raise (unless you overlimp)?

All in all I would have preferred it, if Vanessa had given her comments in the video as well. After all she was the teacher in the series, and whitelime was the student. I don't really see a point in him doing a video on his own.

But: I liked the series very much, and it has helped me a lot. Thank you both.

Posted May 18, 2008 8:29pm

TiltadFisk
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 06/08

undviker sais "Hope you die" in swedish in chat. lol

Posted Jun 15, 2008 1:25pm

Cadaz
Deuce High
23 posts
Joined 06/08

Just a question here.. how spewy would it be to reraise the flop on the left hand table 12 mins in? (AsQsJs flop one). I'm guessing it's probably horrible and very spewy, but I want to get a clearer idea of how common reraising with air is here. Would it be a better play if we at least had a flush draw to go with it or is it irrelevant? (I'm guessing irrelevant as we'll be folding to a turn bet anyway). Let me explain the logic behind why I'd think about raising:

I think that the BB would lead out with a pot sized bet at that flop with a pretty wide range here. His AF is infinate an it's a scary board if you've missed it. By reraising, you're showing strength (especially with a person yet to act - yet one that has shown no pf strength even on the button, had the chance to raise with our dead money in the pot and didn't do so).

The only type hand I can see the BB caling a raise with here are two pair/set with nut flush redraw type hands or of course an extremely strong made hand. We've already said here that most players are just playing their hands (in which case I think we stand a fair chance of taking the pot down), but even if he was a more thinking player and playing our perceived range as well, it's not unreasonable for our range to encorporate suited kings, or high cards that will already have made a set/straight.

Obviously this play is the sort of thing you'd do once in a blue moon, but how good (or terrible) a play is it likely to be given our image? Obviously the fold is far more standard, but I don't think that a reraise would be an unreasonable resteal attempt given our tight image. I guess the main question is if you think he'd call to see another card with a two pair type hand or not.. after all there are several hands that could be crushing him but if we think he's sticking around, obviously we just fold and move on! What is your experience of what the BB would typically do at this level?

On a note about the series, it's definately one of the best series I've seen so far and it's certainly tempted me into playing more PLO than I have in the past although I think I still need to get out of some plays that work in holdem but have no value in PLO!

Posted Jun 17, 2008 11:55am