Poker Video: Razz by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Just to clarify, J432A is called a jack-perfect, and any J6 or better would probably be called smooth. 5-6 is basically the breaking point for smoothness, and arguing about the smoothness of any hand 9 or worse is pretty pointless. It also compounds the lower you get, i.e. a 76 is certainly not very smooth, etc. Another term used less commonly is straight, which is the worst hand possible, like a straight-8 is an 87654. Hope I could help a little.

Just to clarify, J432A is called a jack-perfect, and any J6 or better would probably be called smooth. 5-6 is basically the breaking point for smoothness, and arguing about the smoothness of any hand 9 or worse is pretty pointless.

I think I say something like that, "Its a JACK!?!?" or in that effect, heh. Love poker terminology, thanks!

It was recently brought up to me by DC-coach, Parlay Slow that the hand at 18m our hero has:

(48) AJQ

and villain has (xx) 8JK

Now, Parlay Slow has brought up that if our opponent has 32 in the hole he is a slight favorite:

Giving our hero an optimal range how the hand has played out:

dead cards: 79TJ
Hand Pot equity
(8-7-)AJQ 49.87%
328JK 50.13%


Here is the actual hand of the hero vs our opponents 32
dead cards: 79TJ
Hand Pot equity
84AJQ 49.10%
328JK 50.90%

Now here is a ranged-hand for hero and opponent:
dead cards: 79TJ
Hand Pot equity
(6-7-)AJQ 51.20%
(7-6-)8JK 48.80%


So, indeed our opponent can be coin flipping in this situation and this is closer than I assumed in the video. But the problem is that our opponent has a 'pinned' range due to having an 8 as a door card. This allows us to play against him well and he has 3-BB streets to get to show down vs a 3rd street raiser w/an Ace door, compounding his reverse implied odd situation. This pot was HU on 3rd, so it is not that big. Granted it is closer than I alluded to in the video, but certainly the point of having an 8-door card was empathized.

OK I messed up these equity sims!


dead cards: 79TJ
Hand Pot equity
(7-8-A)JQ 57.35%
328JK 42.65%

I had to put the Ace door card within the (), to keep the sim from pairing it.

I think if we bet 5th, here is a range of heros hand that is the most favorable for out opponent:

dead cards: 79TJ
Hand Pot equity
(8-9-A)JQ 55.49%
(7-6-)8JK 44.51%

Great series. Really really GREAT!
Also really looking forward to watch Saddle up next now.. And next series you get mixed games going, I'm hopefully up to speed and will be able to get in question and suggestions.

Mixed games are great out there, and I recommend it to everyone.

Great series. Really really GREAT!
Also really looking forward to watch Saddle up next now.. And next series you get mixed games going, I'm hopefully up to speed and will be able to get in question and suggestions.

Mixed games are great out there, and I recommend it to everyone.

Make sure you watch Danzasmack and my series called "All Mixed Up" too and thanks!

Time Link to 00:39:47

I was looking in propokertools and if you give the A two cards below 8 we still have 40% equity. I'm just wondering why you advocate a fold when we are getting such a good price with that much equity. I would have thought that even with RIO its definitely worth peeling one there.

Time Link to 00:29:16

On 4th, what do you consider to be "out-flopping" here? I am aware that the line is probably vague.

If we just ignore dead cards for a minute, there are basically 13x13 ways 4th street can come out. Getting 4:1 we need to be able to continue profitably on 20% of these combinations. That is approx. 35 possible catches.

A4, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9
24, 2K, 2Q, 2J, 2T, 29
44, 4K, 4Q, 4J
54, 5K, 5Q, 5J
64, 6K, 6Q, 6J
74, 7K, 7Q, 7J
84, 8K, 8Q, 8J
94, 9K, 9Q


If you wanted to play a little "looser" would you prefer betting out when the boards come 4T (you catch a 4, he catches a T) or when you catch a T and he catches a 4, K or Q?

I was looking in propokertools and if you give the A two cards below 8 we still have 40% equity. I'm just wondering why you advocate a fold when we are getting such a good price with that much equity. I would have thought that even with RIO its definitely worth peeling one there.

This really comes down to how aggressive our opponent is. In higher stakes games, if you habitually fold a T on 4th people will call or raise you with the intention of betting to take it down on 4th and exploit your tight play.

Time Link to 00:45:04

If the 44 has two wheel cards under he is either a flip or a favourite in this spot. He can be as much as 55% if the K has A7K4.

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
76,767,600 trials (Exhaustive)
dead cards: A253
a244 55.54% (42,522,985 wins, 222,588 ties)
K7a4 44.46% (34,022,027 wins, 222,588 ties)

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
76,767,600 trials (Exhaustive)
dead cards: A253
a244 54.28% (41,554,423 wins, 230,652 ties)
K6a4 45.72% (34,982,525 wins, 230,652 ties)

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
76,767,600 trials (Exhaustive)
dead cards: A253
a244 50.79% (38,901,497 wins, 172,086 ties)
K5a4 49.21% (37,694,017 wins, 172,086 ties)

The K will be a favourite if the 44 doesn't have dead pair outs:

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
76,767,600 trials (Exhaustive)
dead cards: A253
7A44 44.71% (34,212,812 wins, 222,519 ties)
K5a4 55.29% (42,332,269 wins, 222,519 ties)

Time Link to 00:45:50

He really isn't in bad shape if he is smooth underneath:

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: A253
(5-5-4)4K 43.54% (260,658 wins, 1,160 ties)
(5-5-4)KQ 56.46% (338,182 wins, 1,160 ties)

Folding would be a mistake.

Time Link to 00:49:50

You actually have him board-locked. This is pure, solid-gold value.

Time Link to 00:19:07

If this game is anything like Fulltilts razz game the down cards can get shuffled at the end. So assuming that if that happens also on stars, then he very easily could have had us beat the whole way. This very easily could be a spot were he has A28 becasue if he 3 bets on 3rd then he is basically flipping his hand face up w/ it being 2 wheel cards w/ his 8. Obv. i think that anytime you do defend w/ a card like a 8, you shouldn't ever be re raising unless another aggressive player holds a 8 or any player opens in front w/ a 9 or worse.

You may be flaming this guy based on an assumption that is incorrect. Not sure, but i actually think that stars does shuffle the down cards at the end the same way ftp does.

after thinking about this further i am almost sure this player had us beat the whole way actually because a normal player playing at these stakes, which in my opinion aren't that small, wouldn't really try to go out of there way to call A raises w/ 8 up 87 draws. Hope that makes as much sense to you as it does to me. To add to that, yes there are many bad players that will make bad and suspect calls/chases/peels but i dont think we have enough info on this player to assume that.

Time Link to 00:24:55

i find this defend much more bad on stars than on ftp because the antes make a huge difference in the pot odds. I think you are also failing to realize that you have to hit 2 out of the next 2 cards to continue to 6th when he can brick once on either of the next 2 streets and barrel both. Your hand is very face up if (though not a major big deal) any of these players are thinking players and if they think that you have a clue or shall i say that they view you as a decent razz player. I think this is a obv. fold w/ the ante structure. Dont get me wrong if he had a 9 up or worse im calling every time, and i may call a 8 sometimes.

Time Link to 00:26:39

This is a best case scenario for you and yet if you hit a Q and he hits a 8 or lower on 5th you have to fold and you get owned by all his pairs and bluffs. There is also a little saying that goes along the lines of "if you have to fold on the next card if its bad, then you shouldn't bet the prev. card" but this exact hand is an exception imo because he will have so many bluffs in his 3rd street opening range that he will have to fold, though some thinking players will call here just to bluff you on bricked 5th street cards because you shouldn't be able to call assuming his 5th street card looks like an improvement. There are also many other exceptions to that saying, because the value of winning a pot right away is the plan. Also, all bluffing situations are obv. bets regardless of worrying about the next card. Vs some calling stations it completely accurate to abide by the saying.

Time Link to 00:49:05

Getting 6:1 here im calling any 3 card 6 exp: A62 or 462 which is pretty much what he is repping when he 3b on 3rd. That reraise on 3rd made it profitable in my opinion to peel anything on 4th assuming you dont hit a wheel card. I think this is 100% a peel vs your 10. Can you logically or mathmatically prove me wrong?

If this game is anything like Fulltilts razz game the down cards can get shuffled at the end. So assuming that if that happens also on stars, then he very easily could have had us beat the whole way. This very easily could be a spot were he has A28 becasue if he 3 bets on 3rd then he is basically flipping his hand face up w/ it being 2 wheel cards w/ his 8. Obv. i think that anytime you do defend w/ a card like a 8, you shouldn't ever be re raising unless another aggressive player holds a 8 or any player opens in front w/ a 9 or worse.

You may be flaming this guy based on an assumption that is incorrect. Not sure, but i actually think that stars does shuffle the down cards at the end the same way ftp does.

Stars does not shuffle the hole cards. They do not do it today, and certainly did not do it back in 2008 when Chuck played the hand.

after thinking about this further i am almost sure this player had us beat the whole way actually because a normal player playing at these stakes, which in my opinion aren't that small, wouldn't really try to go out of there way to call A raises w/ 8 up 87 draws. Hope that makes as much sense to you as it does to me. To add to that, yes there are many bad players that will make bad and suspect calls/chases/peels but i dont think we have enough info on this player to assume that.

Stars does not shuffle. The games were great back then, still are.

Here is a hand I played yesterday:



Full Tilt Poker $15/$30 Limit Razz $2.50 Ante - 4 players - View hand 658776
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.667 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 ____Seat 1 raises____Seat 1 calls
Seat 2: xx xx J ____Seat 2 brings in for $5____Seat 2 folds
Hero: A 2 3 ___Hero completes___Hero 3-bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8 ____Seat 6 folds

On 4th, what do you consider to be "out-flopping" here? I am aware that the line is probably vague.

If we just ignore dead cards for a minute, there are basically 13x13 ways 4th street can come out. Getting 4:1 we need to be able to continue profitably on 20% of these combinations. That is approx. 35 possible catches.

A4, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9
24, 2K, 2Q, 2J, 2T, 29
44, 4K, 4Q, 4J
54, 5K, 5Q, 5J
64, 6K, 6Q, 6J
74, 7K, 7Q, 7J
84, 8K, 8Q, 8J
94, 9K, 9Q


If you wanted to play a little "looser" would you prefer betting out when the boards come 4T (you catch a 4, he catches a T) or when you catch a T and he catches a 4, K or Q?

Meh if we pair and he catches a T, but he he catches a Q, we could stab at it.