Episode Three

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Episode Three

In Episode 3, KRANTZ and WiltOnTilt examine how to beat up the loose passive donkeys at HU NLHE. They talk about building a General strategy against them to take advantage of their biggest mistakes as well as devising counter-strategies to stay one step ahead of donkey mindset. The episode concludes with several hands displaying how to maximally exploit this player type.

tags: krantz wiltontilt heads up hunl no limit hold'em ipod friendly

This Series: pr1nnyraiding

Krantz and WiltOnTilt provide a heads up No Limit primer. A comprehensive guide to beating small stakes HU NLHE.

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Comments for Episode Three

LouPinella
Deuce High
59 posts
Joined 01/08

putting the snapler on him?

Posted Mar 21, 2008 8:52pm

shawn
Pair of Deuces
130 posts
Joined 03/08

I believe that's Snapple'r

Seriously though Jay, could you expand a bit more on your Snapple'r call with A4? When he bets the turn you put him on a bad draw or kings up? And the 8 on the river means what now?

Posted Mar 21, 2008 9:54pm

shawn
Pair of Deuces
130 posts
Joined 03/08

The rest of that video is ... solid gold baby.

Posted Mar 22, 2008 1:12am

Enzyme
Deuce High
3 posts
Joined 01/08

Wilt, "free showdown" argument in J7s hand doesn't make much sense. He bets 6 into 12, so instead of calling 6 and looking him up on the river, when you hit a J, you put additional 18 before you hit. I am not in love with semi-bluffing w/o folding equity, but I don't hate it, I guess.

/nitpicking

Posted Mar 22, 2008 5:08am

WiltOnTilt
Exec Producer
Deuces Full
536 posts
Joined 10/07

i could have a small amount of fold equity, I mentioned we don't know exactly what range of hands he bets half pot with there... but even if he has a ten i increase the size of the pot i win the 35% of the time i get there.

i agree the turn raise is debatable, and in-game if i know he has a set of fives, of course i don't raise, but by and large you can get away with making these smallish raises to bloat the pot against a guy who pays off too much on the river... and sometimes to maximize the likelihood he pays off with a 1pair hand, you have to set up the stacks such that he's going to feel committed and often getting him near a pot sized bet will do that... where as if i just flat and the turn the pot is $24 and there's 154 left in stacks, pretty much going to be impossible to get the $ in unless he happens to have one of the few monster combos.

like i said in the video though, if there's a real threat of him coming over the top w/ a sizable range of hands on the turn then flatting is much better as i don't want to get blown off my equity.

WoT

Posted Mar 22, 2008 5:10pm

Mendez
Pair of Deuces
233 posts
Joined 02/08

In the first hand where you check A9 on the 88597 river, what is the plan if he bets?

Posted Mar 24, 2008 6:41pm

Marwan
Deuce High
13 posts
Joined 03/08

On the 7hJh hand where you decide to raise the turn, isn't this counter-productive against the loose-passive player type? Except for using it as a pot-builder when we hit our draw, aren't loose passives a.) not going to bet without a decent 9 or 10 or better and b.) going to call a raise almost always? It seems like the people with very low AF's (I'm guessing his bet turn is low) wouldn't be taking stabs here nearly as often as a TAG/LAG who bets his whole range when you show weakness. In general I feel we should just take the good price on the turn/not re-open the betting with our draw against this player type.. especially since we're never bluff-raising or betting the river when we miss our 12 outer or whatever (since he's never folding).. I guess I'm thinking it would just suck if he shoves or makes a real raise on the turn with our draw. My thinking is probably flawed, good thing I'm watching the series :D

Posted Apr 1, 2008 5:38am

WiltOnTilt
Exec Producer
Deuces Full
536 posts
Joined 10/07

marwan, look up a couple posts

WoT

Posted Apr 1, 2008 5:59am

Marwan
Deuce High
13 posts
Joined 03/08

oops didn't read the previous posts, ty

Posted Apr 1, 2008 6:12am

mattiesmat
Deuce High
74 posts
Joined 05/08

I was wondering how loose passive villains affect your (optimal) opening range.
Should we open more, because they don't 3bet enough or should we open less because we don't have as much fold equity both preflop and on the flop.
I used to tighten my range for those last reasons and start calling more medium strength hands.
However on the video I saw you guys open 65o, 54o I think.
Can you explain this is a little and tell me what is wrong with my strategy?

Posted Jun 5, 2008 3:54pm

WiltOnTilt
Exec Producer
Deuces Full
536 posts
Joined 10/07

mattie, essentially what it boils down to is how well you think you can play against him postflop. If you feel like your postflop skills, compared to his, are excellent, then be inclined to open a very wide range of hands against a guy who doesn't 3bet much preflop. it's ok to bloat pots with marginal holdings when you have position and you feel like you can outplay the guy constantly... and by outplay, i dont mean steal tons of pots per se, i mostly mean make more correct calls/folds/bluffs than he will postflop. Having position helps, but the same can apply when you're oop and these loose passive guys limp. I'm a big proponent of raising a fairly wide range of hands when loose/passives limp my button in heads up because I feel like I can read board texture/bet size/hand read/value bet so much better than they can, that it's worth it for me.

The less comfortable you are playing postflop (2 barreling, bluff raising, reading board texture, hand reading in general) the less inclined you should be to open lots of speculative hands, even in position, against loose passive players. There are many ways to skin these cats, and certainly a viable option is simply waiting for strong hands and value bet them to death!

Posted Jun 5, 2008 6:58pm

mattiesmat
Deuce High
74 posts
Joined 05/08

mattie, essentially what it boils down to is how well you think you can play against him postflop. If you feel like your postflop skills, compared to his, are excellent, then be inclined to open a very wide range of hands against a guy who doesn't 3bet much preflop. it's ok to bloat pots with marginal holdings when you have position and you feel like you can outplay the guy constantly... and by outplay, i dont mean steal tons of pots per se, i mostly mean make more correct calls/folds/bluffs than he will postflop. Having position helps, but the same can apply when you're oop and these loose passive guys limp. I'm a big proponent of raising a fairly wide range of hands when loose/passives limp my button in heads up because I feel like I can read board texture/bet size/hand read/value bet so much better than they can, that it's worth it for me.

The less comfortable you are playing postflop (2 barreling, bluff raising, reading board texture, hand reading in general) the less inclined you should be to open lots of speculative hands, even in position, against loose passive players. There are many ways to skin these cats, and certainly a viable option is simply waiting for strong hands and value bet them to death!


Thanks.
Can you explain a bit more in detail why open raising is so much better vs a LP who doesn't 3 bet much, especially when you are OOP?
I understand the use vs most people, especially vs weak-tight players, because you have a lot of Fold Equity, both preflop and on the flop (and later), however vs loose passive guys you don't have that much Fold Equity, because they defend and call cbets so wide.
A benefit I can think of is that the pot gets bigger, which makes the mistakes bigger and if they defend very wide their range is so wide that cbetting is profitable, unless he is the worst calling station.

Posted Jun 5, 2008 9:54pm

WiltOnTilt
Exec Producer
Deuces Full
536 posts
Joined 10/07

right, basically we're making bigger pots where on average we'll make better decisions in bigger pots than our loose/passive/donk opponents, so even if we make a slightly -EV raise preflop it allows us to potentially exploit a hugely +EV situation postflop (which could be as simple as flopping middle pair when a guy never folds anything).

I think the key thing to remember is that plays like this aren't as simple as 2 barreling an A on the turn, where when you do it against just about anyone you will auto profit. This pf concept of raising marginal holdings oop and building pots is one that takes a lot of finesse to pull off against guys who won't fold much. Against some people, it won't be +EV... it really depends on how you quantify "won't fold much" and is one of those player/game flow dependent things that's tough to talk about in a vaccuum in a forum post... however if you are good at reading board texture and bet sizing and overall handreading, I feel you can grind them down, tilt them, and prepare them to stack off even lighter once you do finally hit top pair+.

hope that helps
Aaron

Posted Jun 6, 2008 5:14pm

fenhir
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 07/08

KRANTZ: Please speak more clearly, a bit slower and in the same volume like WoT. Wot is much, much better to understand in those videos.

DC has customers with a motherlanguage other than english, too. An alternative for clearly speaking without dialect would be an extra version of the videos with subtitles.

Thanks for your efforts.

Posted Nov 3, 2008 6:48pm

PanchoStern
Pair of Deuces
213 posts
Joined 02/08

My wife said the same thing.

Posted Nov 27, 2008 9:29pm