Poker Video: No Limit Hold 'Em by Grindcore (Micro/Small Stakes)

Time Link to 00:01:32

A while ago we had a very intersting discussion in SSNL about a similar hand. Want to take a look at it?

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/34-Small-Stakes-Shorthanded-NL/topics/31438-So-I-overrep-my-hand-to-g

Time Link to 00:30:43

I would also note here that he played passively when he was IP and aggressively OOP. All in all I think the 2 hands we saw him play don't give us that much information, because his play in both hands is fairly common for most people, and as you said earlier, things are noteworthy when you see something that you didn't expect.

Time Link to 00:56:53

He did raise the flop before when you had a gutter to the nuts. Flop was also Q-hi and you said the same thing (would 3bet pre a Q strong enough to raise flop). In the first hand I would very often call myself. I have at least some equity and he can't have that muich for value. We can stab the river, check/jam the turn or do whatever on later streets.

This hand is different. Your reasoning for folding the first hand was also that you didn't have a BDFD (you said: If I had 98 of diamonds I would call). Here you have absolutely nada. Yopu can't even turn 2nd pair as you would have been able to in the first hand.

OK, in the first hand the guy was more unknown than he is now, but that makes this even more a fold on the flop imo. You assumed earlier that he probably had just had a good run of cards and in my experience at SSNL people just won't take the same line twice as a bluff vs you during one session often enough to play back at them light.

Time Link to 00:27:35

I really think just calling on the flop is wrong here, cause if he has a flush draw or something like KJ with K of hearts or QT etc he will call a raise or shoves to it, dont you think? Remember these are fish ;-)

Very interested in your opinion here - thx!

You say that people are uncomfortable playing back at players whose HUD stats haven't loaded yet, because they rely too much on them.

Well I see that you are a player that, aswell as myself, takes his notes inside the HUD panel and not in the client's note function. In that case it really is a problem when the panel hasn't loaded yet, unless you remeber the player, that is of course.

Even if they have a note "valuebets thin" or whatever, they still don't know your 3betting frequencies from the blinds etc. But they will 1 hand later when the full HUD with all the stats loads.

Regardless, it's impossible to have more info about a player before his HUD loads, than after. Since people rely too much on their HUDs you have more FE on your 1st hand at the table with your bluffs.

I really think just calling on the flop is wrong here, cause if he has a flush draw or something like KJ with K of hearts or QT etc he will call a raise or shoves to it, dont you think? Remember these are fish ;-)

Very interested in your opinion here - thx!

I can still stack those on the turn. Also I'm a big favorite against them, and there's a good chance he's bluffing aswell. I think by raising flop I get alot of folds, and by calling I get alot of turnbets, netting a higher gain.

You're not overrepping your hand by betting at all.

Well, I don't know about the stakes you play but at 100NL peoples' multiway donking ranges are pretty strong and probably very rarely if ever TPNK. In that sense I do overrep my hand. Also assuming that even if people expect TPNK to be in my range, it's always gonna be the bottom of my range and in no way part of my stackoff range (sets/big draws)

Time Link to 00:32:53

what do u think about a double barrel here w/ 33, since so much of his calling range is a medium PP?

what do u think about a double barrel here w/ 33, since so much of his calling range is a medium PP?

The VPIP/PFR gap suggests he's call happy from the blinds so he has more Ax than PPs imo. And he also might not fold a PP on the turn anyway. And my image is bad.

Time Link to 00:07:50

J2o - would c/f be too weak in this spot?

I typically like to c/c marginal made hands on (ultra)draw-heavy flops and thought J2 here was worse than marginal. And we don't know much about villain's postflop tendencies yet.

J2o - would c/f be too weak in this spot?

I typically like to c/c marginal made hands on (ultra)draw-heavy flops and thought J2 here was worse than marginal. And we don't know much about villain's postflop tendencies yet.

Why would you c/f with a pair in BvB? If you're gonna c/f you should just cbet. I check to let him bluff because when I check I look like air that's giving up. And as you see it worked.

I would prefer 4 tables in one of the future videos. That way we get to see more spots, a wider variety of players and table dynamics.

Can't we make a small raise on the flop to extract value from a T? I agree with your assessment that he probably has a T when he check min-raises, but I find a fish is often doing that to "see where they're at" as opposed to doing it for value. He raises with the intention of folding if he gets played back at, but if you make the raise small enough (say to like $35 or $40) he won't be able to fold.

Then the pot on the turn is like $90, assuming the turn card doesn't kill your action/create a bunch of draws, you can just extract value by betting small like $40 and then he'll talk himself into calling the river given the great odds he's getting. I normally don't take this line, but on a board with basically 0 draws and you essentially have the nuts...I like making very small bets/raises to price in the fish for 3 streets.

He's never c/mr folding for value so I might aswell jam to prevent action killers. If he can be bluffing or doing it with a 2nd pair type hand, CiB or calling becomes better. Completely readless I'm assuming it's mostly Tx so I take the highest EV line vs Tx, which is jamming.

Anything between 1 and 10, usually 5-7

We just took a note on villain that he didnt play his draws fast. You didnt even check your note or think twice about getting this in. Just curious if your read was correct, say you had seen overtime villain played draws passively, how would you continue?

I'm curious to hear what Grindcore has to say but IMO we can't just call that raise since it is pot committing. We have more than 50% equity against anything but sets and even then we have around 41% equity I think. So we are basically never folding an OESD + FD vs this raise and the raise is so large that we should just stick it in. Just my 2 cents

Anything between 1 and 10, usually 5-7

Since you play on Ipoker, I'm curious to hear how you take your notes. Ipoker steals my mouse focus all the time which makes note taking when multi tabling quite difficult for me. Is there a way to prevent this from happening?

I liked the video a lot by the way. Not only do you have good knowledge of the game, you also really put effort in making the video as good as it could be. You were playing focused, you explained your thoughts well and you were paying a lot of attention to the action around you.

Since you play on Ipoker, I'm curious to hear how you take your notes. Ipoker steals my mouse focus all the time which makes note taking when multi tabling quite difficult for me. Is there a way to prevent this from happening?

I liked the video a lot by the way. Not only do you have good knowledge of the game, you also really put effort in making the video as good as it could be. You were playing focused, you explained your thoughts well and you were paying a lot of attention to the action around you.

Yes it's annoying. You can practice timing with notetaking, or just click the note field again if you lose focus. Notetaking is pain when playing 10 tables, but I mostly play ~6 and then it's no problem for me.

Great video, as always.
I was wonder if you could check your red line at the end of vids, if there will be opportunity. Thanx bunch.

Can we get a rundown on your HUD?

improva:
Good idea, Grindcore should make so many vids that we will have this sample.

Loved your first video, it led to something interesting in me. Hopefully, this one will awake the real poker motivation again in me. I'll watch it tomorrow after training, thanks in advance

Great video, as always.
I was wonder if you could check your red line at the end of vids, if there will be opportunity. Thanx bunch.

Look 1 post up.

You should play 50 VPIP at 10/20 imo.

"Brainless Loose Aggressive Monkeys!!"

Time Link to 00:37:01

I noticed that you opened 77 for 4x UTG this time, but earlier you opened a more junky hand (9To iirc) UTG for 3x on the right hand table. Are you varying your raise size according to hand strength or was it an accident?

I noticed that you opened 77 for 4x UTG this time, but earlier you opened a more junky hand (9To iirc) UTG for 3x on the right hand table. Are you varying your raise size according to hand strength or was it an accident?

Accident, I talked about open raise sizes from EP in the video. With my normal TAG game I open 4x from EP and UTG but with the style in this video I should make it 3x. I just auto-pilot opened 4x with a good hand as I'm so used to it.

Good video! keep up the work.

Can you tell me how you layed out your HUD, is it
# of hands/?
VPIP/PFR/3b%/Ft3b/?
AF/cb/f2cbf2secondbarrel/f2riverbet?

name/hands
VPIP/PFR/AF/AFq/steal
3b/f3b/squeeze/cbet/fcbet


Sorry, I realized I forgot this after I finished the video so I wanted to be the first to reply to the video with this, but forgot

Time Link to 00:07:37

isnt it much better to c/r this type of hand since if he is cbetting his entire range the least amount of outs he has i 6 and aloot of turncards will force you to c/f..

Don't agree that the call of the shorty is horrible. He opens 2bb, you 3bet 5bb so he has to call 3bb to win 9bb. If you're 3betting range is wide - and presumably it is - he can easily call here with anything reasonable, play fit or fold, and still make a profit.

Hmm I kinda auto-pecked it as bad because none of the pro shorties do it. But alot of them have leaks. I guess it can be good with this specific hand. That poses a problem though, because his callingrange is gonna be fairly face up as JTs-ish hands and I have an easy time bluffing or avoiding bad bluffs postflop. If he wants to balance his callingrange he's gonna have to flat with hands from his shoving range, thus weakening that, allowing me to call his jams lighter thus 3b him more.

Wow, that statement is pretty bold, and wrong In my opinion. Although I cannot know what my villains have been folding, but over the last few years of playing, Ive seen plenty of times where a fish has ch/lmr and then tank/folding in similiar spots. My guess it isn't always hollywood tankning. Keep in mind that you were 120ish bb deep, and that the board was dry as a 7 year old girl's XXXXX.

If fish want to find out where they're at with a hand less than top pair, they usually donkbet. The other line they take is c/c. c/mr is usually top pair+ or air in my experience, and they never fold top pair. But both raise sizes are pretty equal in EV I think. I might get him to continue with a slightly wider range maybe by raising small, but I'll also miss some action if an ace rolls off or something on the turn then.

i really dont agree with this, the worst part oh his range has like 6outs, and i just hink you have to little equity to c/c this. without betting initiative and beeing oop this cant be +ev... imo

Well, c/f is a horrible line, and c/r is not good for reasons I already posted. So it's a c/c or a cbet. If I cbet I put in 1 bet. If I c/c I also put in 1 bet. So the same ammount of money goes in. But when I cbet, he'll continue with a tighter range than when I check. So I put in an equal ammount of money, but I get more value. It also takes away his ability to (semi)bluffraise me. c/c just results in harder turn/river spots, but I think I'm equipped to handle them. If I wasn't, c/c would be bad. Harder doesn't mean lower EV.

I'm not gonna c/c, I'm gonna CRAI. Any hand that continues vs my cbet will bet when checked to anyway. The only thing checking does is allowing him to put money in with air or checking back with air. I think an unknown SS in that spot would be more likely to bluff than to check back. Also, the board was really dry and I have an ace with a good kicker. No way his air has 24% equity vs me there. I likely have his air dominated or I'll have the redraw.

It's a stacksize thing. If there's like 1.5-2x pot left in the stacks, c/r is usually better than b/c in such scenarios. With more or less money behind a cbet gets better.

Why would you c/f with a pair in BvB? If you're gonna c/f you should just cbet. I check to let him bluff because when I check I look like air that's giving up. And as you see it worked.

I can see the points made on the later streets, but c/c:ing bottom pair seems kinda brutal on that board as just about ANYTHING is going to have 6 outs+ vs you ;/

Would like it better if we had a heart or something else we could pick up on the turn (like if we had Ah2x or something), but with this hand I think I rather cbet?

I apologize if someone has already commented on this hand, but it's not in the timeline of bookmarks so I didn't think they had yet.

44 on 427rb vs c/minr. You shove and say he won't fold tp here. You don't think he would fold a weak tp or put you on an overpair and fold here? On the A4 hand going on at the same time you flat a minr to keep his bluffs in. Shouldn't we do the same here?

The 44 hand has already been discussed. The main difference is that fish don't often raise a pair of aces because they're "invurnerable" but on a lower flop a c/mr is usually top pair. Just something I've noticed to be a consistent fish tendency on pretty much any level. Also, even if he does c/mr Ax on the ace high board, there won't be any turncard that can scare him away, while on the T high board, he might take a c/c c/f line if the board runs out overcards to his pair.

What a great vid.

I would assume that you 3betting KJo in the sb for a bluff? Also how many 3bet bluffs should you have in a opening range of say 30% KJo KTo and how many more along with your value hands?

I'm 3betting depolarized from the blinds, see part 1 of the series if you don't understand what I'm talking about. Also, wether you call it a bluff or thin value, it's still KJ. I hate labling stuff. That's just language. Poker is math and logic.

See http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/56/medium-stakes-pl-nl/theory-what-betting-shoving-protection-aqo-3-bet-pot-i-shoved-flop-protection-592625/ for some discussion on labling poker stuff.

Grindcore can you please post a pokerstove of what you thought villain was betting on flop and turn? I think it's an interesting hand.

Yeah, I thought this as well. C/c makes this a guessing game vs a random player who we can only assume is a regular at this point. We can't call turn or river either imo because he doesn't know much of us and is unlikely to barrel total air with such a betsize, and any air he is barreling most likely has a broadway heart in it, which has a lot of equity against us.

So if you think his range for betting is so strong, you mean you'd expect him to shut down with air alot, so you can start making delayed cbets with all your air yourself. But it's the exact opposite. Delayed cbets work well on boards where it looks like you actually have something rather than that you're checkfolding, like on AJx. If you check there they'll put you on Jx and check back air and fold turn, where you take it down with your 8 high.

Also if you think he's gonna alot of turns (and rivers) and it's just too much heat for us to continue with, then you should c/c with overpairs etc here, or with draws to c/r the turn because you get tons of value/dead money that way.

And just because a certain line makes the hand harder to play doesn't mean it has a lower EV. Sometimes the hardest line has a higher EV. The better you get at poker, the less you'll be guessing on the later streets. You only find the spot hard because you're not used to it and you're playing against a wide range instead of a well defined range. I suggest you try playing some HU because there every hand you'll be playing against a wide range and essentially playing a guessinggame, even against fish. Yet it's possible to have a winrate at HU despite these properties. If you really want easy decisions, stop playing 6max and go play FR, or even "better", SNGs.

Thanks for vid... 9 mins in to it and my overriding thought is : "who da fuk runs this good.."...OMG.. Nice. WP. Envious.

Time Link to 00:28:55

I don't understand your turn shove. He bets the same amount again which is indicative of a draw that wants to get there cheap or a marginal showdown hand..So you Jam!
But your reasoning is correct I think you put him on a correct range so why not raise small to $29?

Time Link to 00:49:58

You mention that he shud probably 2barrel any overcard vs your weak range. But in an earlier hand or in another episode there was a similar spot where somebody bet vs your missed cbet on 8xxs and then bet the Q turn, and you concluded that he either has flush, Q or is bluffing cause he had checked back 8x a lot here when the overcard comes on the turn.

The difference is that this player is OOP and the other villain was betting vs your missed cbet on a tt-board. But here, can't we actually expect him to check something like A9 when the turn brings a T,J,Q or K cause there is not even a FD to protect so when he 2barrels he either is still bluffing or has hit the turn.

My question is if this concept from the previous hand (that he doesnt bet 8x when the Q turns) applies to that spot aswell?

Time Link to 00:55:36

SHIP THE GUTSHOT

Hi!
First of all, great series.
The vid was also full of valuable information - thank you ver much
Here is some input and some questions.
maybe you will find some time to answer:

General critism:
You wanna show how to deviate from a standardgame based on information about the opponent, but you have barely statistics.
Even, if you do not play this limits regualarly, there are these days other possibilities to get some HHs.
Of course the payment for this should make DC for their coaches and producers -> so this is more a general critism to DC.

Input:

Min. 3 (A4o):
I agree with the Sqz. For b/c of your reasoning.
But would you also squeeze if the Fish would be instead of SB , the Co or Bu?
Or would it be too thin OOP for Value vs. his callingrange?
If it is too thin, so what would be here the bottom of your squeezingrange?
AT,KJ ?

Min. 7 (J2o):
I absolutely agree that in this spot you should have a C/Call range.
But tbh, Bottompair is just too weak on this board OOP -> you will rarely see a SD.
I would you barell off in this hand b/c after C/C Flop on this board your range is just capped (no strong hands) most of the time.
Problem with BP is that it will more often get drawn out, if you are on flop ahead than for example 99/TT or A8.
So I would intead of C/Call like in this spot sometimes, is to turn my hand into a bluff and to go for a C/R b/c I expect the average Villain to stab 100% here.

Min. 57 (45s):

Imo the flopcall is bad b/c another time you capped your range on such a drawy board -> I would make your life to hell on many many turn – and rivercards.
If you wanna play back here, so 3bet/Fold flop is imo the correct option in this spot on this boardtexture.
You could rep enough(kk+, strong TPs, Combodraws, QT, sets…


Ok, this was all - I am looking forward to the next parts!

Best regards,
Prologion

Wow I'm so disappointed with this video
The first video was quite nice and I thought the whole series would be good..
The theme of this video is basically 60 minutes of watching you making notes.. / hitting 2pair+ with everything and bet/ bet /bet.. So boring, you are silent most of the time,at a second I was actually refreshing the video, because I thought the sound messed up!
I disagree with a squeeze with A4o, probably tight player opens UTG, and because of the fish your folding equity is probably smaller not larger as you state as he is going to call you a lot.. Of course when you hit 2 pair with everything this doesn't seem to be the problem..
I also agree with people saying the fish might c/miniraise with top pair and continue on turn but fold to the shove on the flop.. fish do that they don't think just raise and when you jam they think ok I can't be good if he shoves so I fold.. If you think otherwise then it's obviously because you don't play this limit and such fish players..
The A7 call not raise on flop is also very bad IMHO, as people already said there are so many cards on the turn which he is gonna c/f while on flop he might be willing to call. Also what kind of logic is to minimise your losses if your 2 pair gets counterfeited on turn.. I thought you should put more money when you have the best of it.. that is on flop..
I also disagree with 33 shove on flop.. when you raise it to sth like 32$ of course it's commiting but you let people make mistakes shoving something worse.. as someone already said people are more likely to shove when they have even an illusion of fold equity than calling for the whole stack..
C/c with J2 with bottom pair on the flop is also bad in my opinion, he is going to punish you with position and play really good against you, so what that he can bluff, as his equity against you is always very good anyway..
I just hope the rest of series is better, it was supposed to be about red line, there isn't a word about that in this video..