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Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (High Stakes)

Time Link to 00:12:31

Yeah i`d def check/call. Sure our hand improves, but against his betting range it didnt, unless you have a solid read that he in fact can have any overpair and he still will bet-call those. What do you do if you get 3bet again on the river? Fold in a huge pot? Pay 2bb extra against better hands? And fwiw i would 3bet any full hand on this river and i think most people would.

Time Link to 00:11:24

I feel like we improve a lot vs 10s through Aces, if he plays them this way. However, I am not really sure how sharp this "young kid" is. We took a very strong line on the turn, he did not care and still 3 bet. I think that if we simply bet/3b turn and he capped then we could EASILY call the river. I guess this is why I somewhat dislike the turn play. I feel like we can easily bet/3b for value on the turn and feel great about it. In terms of getting value, we are getting MORE value from hands like J-10, Q-10, K-10 and other over cards that can have gutshots. In addition, he could simply wait with Jacks, and then decide to raise on the turn /w. In other words, 9c presented a lot of draws for him which allows us to b/3 for value. If for example the turn was a 2s then I do not think b/3 is a good play, in fact, I think simply calling his raise is better because we do not have enough equity vs his range due to lack of the draws, but then there are hearts too. In short, I think b/3 is slightly better on turn and I think we can easily cr on riv and puke if we raises.

Time Link to 00:18:39

I think we should just raise the flop and get the SB out right now or charge him to make a huge error if he does call with a gutshot or a Q. I do not like waiting for the turn as much because we allowing the SB to play correctly and see one card for just one SB vs 2. In addition, we could get seriously hurt if we raise on the turn and MP then 3 bets us. It would be tough to fold because the pot is now large. We need to punish SB and we need to do it NOW.

Time Link to 00:25:19

This is a tough spot, very interesting to say the least. I think I am leaning towards a check just because I feel like we a dog to MP some portion of the time and we do not know what SB really has. I agree that he is likely to have a combo draw that consists of diamonds and a pair, but he also could have a set an decided to play like an idiot, which he is and think how awesome it could be to CR again. I just take a free card and call many river when it is one bet to me.

Time Link to 00:31:18

I would raise here. We are likely up against a bs. hand and want to get value from the hand. If he bets flop, turn and THEN river we are usually in big trouble. It is unlikely that the villain is going to triple barrel often enough to make our calldown better than raising the flop, betting the turn and then reevaluate on the river.

Time Link to 00:33:11

As played, raise riv and feel good about it.

Time Link to 00:34:45

Chris, you said you would raise with AK but not AQ, to me these two hands are the same on this board. I would raise as down as A10. You simply crush his stupid donking range and need to own him for playing bad. Calling is terrible, especially when he is like A2 good?

Time Link to 00:41:15

The river can get very ugly for us if certain cards like an 4, a club or even an A comes on the river. You cannot think you could just call down if those cards come. If this is the case, then you are allowing villian to get away with not ONLY catching a 6 outs that would of folded on the turn or made a bad mistake on the turn by calling against us. In addition, you get to charge draws like 98 with a 8c for example, which is quite huge. I bet this turn and fold to a CR.

Time Link to 00:44:48

I think we should bluff at this river. Many good and bad players would donk out a club in this spot. Maybe not the very small clubs like a 6c but that is simply too few combinations. I would bet and hope to fold out A high or a made hand like a 3, 5 or even a small pp if he plays it timid.

Time Link to 00:55:34

I fold on the turn, if he decided to CR us on the turn /w QJ with J of clubs against a player behind us then more power to him. I feel we are doing extremely poorly when he decided to CR on the turn vs two players, especially since you said he is a good thinking player.

Time Link to 00:43:01

With the only reads here that our opponent plays a wide range and is pretty aggressive (think those were the only reads) I'd just be chking back this turn w KQo. I don't think we can comfortably call a turn c/r but l'd I also expect him to c/r on improvement to some single club draws and maybe some of his other various peels that now give him a straight draw or gutter like K4 or 67 and a bet/call just isn't good, I expect our equitys not even decent here vs a 100% range on the turn. With that aggression I'd expect him to make more pointless or 'very unlikely to ever work' bluffs vs us on the river more then most so I'm happy to induce river bluffs from him.

Time Link to 00:43:01

Good video too. It's cool to see so much discussion in them.

With the only reads here that our opponent plays a wide range and is pretty aggressive (think those were the only reads) I'd just be chking back this turn w KQo. I don't think we can comfortably call a turn c/r but l'd I also expect him to c/r on improvement to some single club draws and maybe some of his other various peels that now give him a straight draw or gutter like K4 or 67 and a bet/call just isn't good, I expect our equitys not even decent here vs a 100% range on the turn. With that aggression I'd expect him to make more pointless or 'very unlikely to ever work' bluffs vs us on the river more then most so I'm happy to induce river bluffs from him.

we don't need to call his CR, he is a nit and when he CR us he has it. Just fold and feel good about it.

I feel like we improve a lot vs 10s through Aces, if he plays them this way. However, I am not really sure how sharp this "young kid" is. We took a very strong line on the turn, he did not care and still 3 bet. I think that if we simply bet/3b turn and he capped then we could EASILY call the river. I guess this is why I somewhat dislike the turn play. I feel like we can easily bet/3b for value on the turn and feel great about it. In terms of getting value, we are getting MORE value from hands like J-10, Q-10, K-10 and other over cards that can have gutshots. In addition, he could simply wait with Jacks, and then decide to raise on the turn /w. In other words, 9c presented a lot of draws for him which allows us to b/3 for value. If for example the turn was a 2s then I do not think b/3 is a good play, in fact, I think simply calling his raise is better because we do not have enough equity vs his range due to lack of the draws, but then there are hearts too. In short, I think b/3 is slightly better on turn and I think we can easily cr on riv and puke if we raises.

I think this is totally backwards. When someone is semibluffing too much you don't 3 bet them more, you call down more. If the turn is 2s then his range is weighted towards value hands, and we have that range in pretty bad shape w TPTK

I think we should just raise the flop and get the SB out right now or charge him to make a huge error if he does call with a gutshot or a Q. I do not like waiting for the turn as much because we allowing the SB to play correctly and see one card for just one SB vs 2. In addition, we could get seriously hurt if we raise on the turn and MP then 3 bets us. It would be tough to fold because the pot is now large. We need to punish SB and we need to do it NOW.

Thought this was a real tough spot, we talked about it in the video for awhile and my conclusion was there were pros and cons.

I would raise here. We are likely up against a bs. hand and want to get value from the hand. If he bets flop, turn and THEN river we are usually in big trouble. It is unlikely that the villain is going to triple barrel often enough to make our calldown better than raising the flop, betting the turn and then reevaluate on the river.

I strongly disagree, this is so bad for our range (mostly peel hands), AQ high is the perfect bluff catcher, its not good enough to value raise

Chris, you said you would raise with AK but not AQ, to me these two hands are the same on this board. I would raise as down as A10. You simply crush his stupid donking range and need to own him for playing bad. Calling is terrible, especially when he is like A2 good?

Once he bets that river I think he highly polarizes himself, I'm not even 100% sure raising AK is good tbh

The river can get very ugly for us if certain cards like an 4, a club or even an A comes on the river. You cannot think you could just call down if those cards come. If this is the case, then you are allowing villian to get away with not ONLY catching a 6 outs that would of folded on the turn or made a bad mistake on the turn by calling against us. In addition, you get to charge draws like 98 with a 8c for example, which is quite huge. I bet this turn and fold to a CR.

All I'll say is you have to check something, if we are triple barreling are non-showdownable hands, and value betting this, what's left?

Time Link to 00:19:34

Tough spot when MP caps the flop 3-way after you've slightly underrepresented your hand strength by not 3-betting the flop. You have to assume that MP thinks SB could have anything and he might be hoping to force you out by presenting you with another two SBs cold.

Given your relative passivity on the flop I think you have to bet the turn when it's checked around to you and payoff the SB if he puts more bets in.

I strongly disagree, this is so bad for our range (mostly peel hands), AQ high is the perfect bluff catcher, its not good enough to value raise

Yeah I agree. No need to create difficult situations by raising with a perfect bluff-catcher.

Once he bets that river I think he highly polarizes himself, I'm not even 100% sure raising AK is good tbh

Agree with this. A lot of fish will mindlessly c-bet their bluffs and check a lot of their 8x/flopped overpairs.

Time Link to 00:47:15

I think the trouble with bluffing the riv against these passive guys is they tend to have a lot more value combos in their k/c k/c range than a more aggressive player. Agree you need to bluff *some* hands on the river in which case you need to know your own range well and bluff the KQ if it's about the worst hand you can hold in this spot.

Personally I might be more inclined to bet the turn with worse overs like JT while checking the turn with KQ and hoping for a free showdown.

I think the trouble with bluffing the riv against these passive guys is they tend to have a lot more value combos in their k/c k/c range than a more aggressive player. Agree you need to bluff *some* hands on the river in which case you need to know your own range well and bluff the KQ if it's about the worst hand you can hold in this spot.

Personally I might be more inclined to bet the turn with worse overs like JT while checking the turn with KQ and hoping for a free showdown.

Can you walk me through this a little bit more? I'm finding myself a bit lost in these spots where we have to make a plan for a variety of river contingencies.

On the turn, ~25% of my range is is K-high or worse (66+, A7s+, A9o+, K9s+, KTo+, QJo, Q9s+, JTs-76s). Everything above that should be a bet for value/protection, right (at least against this opponent)? Incidentally, KQ is the best hand in my turn range that is a dog to a top 85% range.

So of those KQ and lower hands, ~30% (or 8% total) have a single club. I've been working under the assumption that slotting maybe QJ with a club and 76 for triple barrels is enough to balance the value bets we'll be making on the variety of river situations we get into with our range. Adding JT (no fd) and the like to barreling range feels like overkill.

I do think my K-highs (no club) can slot for turn checks now that I've put some thought into the hand. But I have no clue if my perception of "balance" in this situation is truly balanced for the variety of river scenarios I face.

Also as a gift for you and everyone else, these are the HU cave paintings that James282 and I did way back in early 2005.

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=headsup&Number=1614385&Searchpage=1&Main=1614385&Words=James282+gonores&topic=&Search=true#Post1614385

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1623433&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

I strongly disagree, this is so bad for our range (mostly peel hands), AQ high is the perfect bluff catcher, its not good enough to value raise

If we are trying to play balanced, then yes, you are right. However, this person is a fish, hence he donked into us on the flop. Good players do not donk flops unless they have a really strong read and even then most would still CR on the flop or turn. However, playing exploitative allows us to raise flop for value and and bet turn for value as well vs hands that we beat. On the other hand, if he donks flop, we call, he donks turn, we call, and when he donks on the river we are in bad shape, usually. Many players, especially live, do not just tripple barrel because it is not in their nature, they might donk on the flop and turn and just give up on the river.

All I am saying is when this person bets on the river we are not in good shape.

Once he bets that river I think he highly polarizes himself, I'm not even 100% sure raising AK is good tbh

But I mean it is not like we cannot fold to his b/3bet on the river. I feel like we are freerolling this person and we need to allow him to make mistakes. By not raising he gets away with better marginal hands, weak aces, and bluffs. I like allowing people to make mistakes this is a good spot to do so.

Agree with this. A lot of fish will mindlessly c-bet their bluffs and check a lot of their 8x/flopped overpairs.

perhaps I am wrong on my assumptions, but it just seems that my read is that even idiots would bet weak A and pay off our raise.

I think this is totally backwards. When someone is semibluffing too much you don't 3 bet them more, you call down more. If the turn is 2s then his range is weighted towards value hands, and we have that range in pretty bad shape w TPTK

This is true, but we get enough value on the turn if he decided to raise with a bluff and we do get third bet on the turn because he is never folding. If we bet the turn and he raises with a draw and barrels of on the river it is still 3 bets vs. the three bets that we get on the turn. In addition, if we b/3 bet turn, we could just check the river and hope he bluffs.

Furthermore, he could easily raise with a hand that we totally crush on the turn like 8 with a gutshot or even K8. This would allow us to get maximum value from him.

Time Link to 00:10:47

I don't really love a c/r here given what I suspect his river betting distribution looks like. I doubt very much if villain has a lot of overpairs in his range given preflop and flop play (although I probably would if I were villain). Nor do I think that he has many 9s given the turn play and the strength of our line. So I guess I really prefer a c/c although it seems nitty.

Time Link to 00:24:48

I'm leaning toward a bet here. It just seems so likely that we have the best hand and even if we get c/r, I think it isn't a total disaster given the size of the pot and the relative spazziness of the players involved. It's pretty important to realize that underrepping your hand could cause MP to overplay something weak thinking that he can get you to fold and get the pot heads up in position.

If we are trying to play balanced, then yes, you are right. However, this person is a fish, hence he donked into us on the flop. Good players do not donk flops unless they have a really strong read and even then most would still CR on the flop or turn. However, playing exploitative allows us to raise flop for value and and bet turn for value as well vs hands that we beat. On the other hand, if he donks flop, we call, he donks turn, we call, and when he donks on the river we are in bad shape, usually. Many players, especially live, do not just tripple barrel because it is not in their nature, they might donk on the flop and turn and just give up on the river.

All I am saying is when this person bets on the river we are not in good shape.

The opponent in question is an unknown. Obviously he has done something sub-optimal by donking, especially on this board texture, but we don't have a real read on what he is up to. Different flavors of fish donk with different ranges here, and I don't think we can say with any certainty that this move weakens or strengthens his preflop range. Therefore it seems like we should respond with a balanced approach, which also gives us the benefit of seeing his hand and seeing what he is up to.

I mean, think about what we learn about this guy bet-bet-betting with AKo here. We now can assume that his check/calling range on bland, nothing flops like this is highly polarized and likely overly-weak. We know he is not a passive variety of fish. We have strong evidence he is a poor hand-reader. That's a lot of info that we're risking passing up here by taking an aggressive line.

Pay attention to other hands that this person donks in similar spots to learn all of this. I just want to gain more value from a fish.

Pay attention to other hands that this person donks in similar spots to learn all of this. I just want to gain more value from a fish.

I think hear what you are saying... that you believe his donking range is weak enough that we should try to extract value from it by raising a strong hand like AQ. In your experience, people who donk this flop do so with a range that AQ is a favorite against, and this read is reliable enough that we can act on it even though we have no other information on our opponent.

Do you hear what I am saying though? While his donk does indicate that he is likely not a good player, I don't know what type of bad player he is. I have certainly seen players who only donk pocket pairs and flush draws on this flop, and raising against that range is pretty bad. I have also seen players who do this mainly with good draws. We can probably raise them on a blank turn. I have also seen players who do this with basically their whole range, with little rhyme or reason to their play, and we can call or raise depending on their propensity to barrel. What I am saying is that I don't know which one of these categories he falls into, and so responding with a non-exploitable strategy does better for us than guessing which type of mistake he is making here and acting to exploit it.

I agree with you on what you said. However, once we learn this this villain does not donk with anything but weak hands such as over cards, random ace highs and weird hands, we can agree that a raise is good?

I agree with you on what you said. However, once we learn this this villain does not donk with anything but weak hands such as over cards, random ace highs and weird hands, we can agree that a raise is good?

As long as we couple this assumption with your assumption that he is unlikely to continue barreling, then yes, raise seems good to me.

Time Link to 00:29:57

You've improved to two ten of clubs with an ace kicker.

Can you walk me through this a little bit more? I'm finding myself a bit lost in these spots where we have to make a plan for a variety of river contingencies.

On the turn, ~25% of my range is is K-high or worse (66+, A7s+, A9o+, K9s+, KTo+, QJo, Q9s+, JTs-76s). Everything above that should be a bet for value/protection, right (at least against this opponent)? Incidentally, KQ is the best hand in my turn range that is a dog to a top 85% range.

So of those KQ and lower hands, ~30% (or 8% total) have a single club. I've been working under the assumption that slotting maybe QJ with a club and 76 for triple barrels is enough to balance the value bets we'll be making on the variety of river situations we get into with our range. Adding JT (no fd) and the like to barreling range feels like overkill.

I do think my K-highs (no club) can slot for turn checks now that I've put some thought into the hand. But I have no clue if my perception of "balance" in this situation is truly balanced for the variety of river scenarios I face.

Also as a gift for you and everyone else, these are the HU cave paintings that James282 and I did way back in early 2005.

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=headsup&Number=1614385&Searchpage=1&Main=1614385&Words=James282+gonores&topic=&Search=true#Post1614385

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1623433&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

Yeah I probably didn't account for your starting position enough as your range is tighter than with a later position open. It could well be that KQ-no-club is low enough to the bottom to make it a pure bluff on at least the turn or river as well.

I think the point I was trying to make is that given the choice it would be better to check KQ on turn and pure-bluff JT instead, as both have to fold to a turn c/r but KQ has a better chance of winning at showdown if turn and river are both checked through.

In terms of range composition on the turn you'd be betting your stronger made hands for value, betting your stronger draws as semi-bluffs, and betting the bottom of your range as pure-bluffs. Your turn checking range should have a variety of weak pairs/overcards/weak flush draws to be able to bluff-catch enough no matter what the river brings.

BTW thanks for the links, I enjoyed reading through them again all these years later.