Poker Video: Omaha/Omaha 8 by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Great Video, really made some huge leaks blatently obvious. I love the conversation after the ending you forgot to cut, it gives a little insight into all the thought u guys put into this. You sound like a great coach, I wish I could afford ya lol. Well Im rambling but thatnks alot for the great work guys

Great video again. Could someone clarify/give cliff notes what are these pointers from Gergery referred to in the middle of the video and also right in the end?

(also, apologies for being such a moron/pest last Sunday, I have felt really ashamed all week, don't usually drink that many beers...from now on, on topic only)

Great Video, really made some huge leaks blatently obvious. I love the conversation after the ending you forgot to cut, it gives a little insight into all the thought u guys put into this. You sound like a great coach, I wish I could afford ya lol. Well Im rambling but thatnks alot for the great work guys

OPPS! I thought I tried to edit that out, sorry for the F-bombs. But, yeah, there are a lot of convos from behind the scenes for our production. This actually goes on for another 8m or so as I'm saving things and stuff. I guess I "missed" when I edited.

I should keep it, yes? We can cut out an upload a new version at the sign off point.

Great video again. Could someone clarify/give cliff notes what are these pointers from Gergery referred to in the middle of the video and also right in the end?

Basically what Gergery said to me, as I was leaking HUGE w/trips, was be careful when flopping low trips on a board that has another low. As there is a low draw, so the pots are often "cut in half" which doesnt make your equity so great. We are sooooo used to thinking we have a HUGE hand in Hold'em when we flop trips or a set, obv. We have to be very careful in O8 as the pots are split for low. This is why Ray Zee says, in Hi/Low Split, that a set of KK can often be 'strong' (pot equity wise) than a set of AA, since when a set of AA flops there will be a low draw out there often.

And Gergery said to watch your kickers when you make trips, the higher all three your kickers, the better your 'full house draw' as it's so easy to have a huge hands in O8. With 3 overcard kickers we have 9 outs to counterfeit a made full house. Like if you have A5T9 on a 554 flop, this is solid trips. (and a hand that Chuck recently played, btw.) The trips in the example that Chuck played is a tough spot for a Hold'em player. In my learning stage, I would never got away from it like Chuck did, but sure would have played the flop the same. Go back and look at the example, it's clear how dangerous this is for a Hold'em-Donk.

(also, apologies for being such a moron/pest last Sunday, I have felt really ashamed all week, don't usually drink that many beers...from now on, on topic only)

Hey, np, no worries. I have been VERY guilty of drunk-posting in the past! heh!

On the AAJc5c hand pre flop... what is the reason for checking this? The hand has a decent equity edge(conservatively at least 40% equity in a 3 way pot) and we have position on one of the players.

On the AAJc5c hand pre flop... what is the reason for checking this? The hand has a decent equity edge(conservatively at least 40% equity in a 3 way pot) and we have position on one of the players.

Jeff, I ran a somewhat conservative simulation in the video and it came out to ~39%.

Against two totally random hands I get 46%, that's the best you can get.

Now lets work at a realistic "worst":

Hand Pot equity
AAJc5c 32.71%
As2s87 35.73%
KQ34 31.56%

Now against a suited Ace w/a 2 and a PLO hand:
AAJc5c 33.71%
As2s** 39.85%
KhQhJT 26.44%

One more, w/a sutied Ace w/a 3 and just a KQ:
AAJc5c 36.44%
As3s** 38.44%
KhQh** 25.12%

I'm not sure where you are getting your equity calc from. We dont have a suited Ace, we have a trap-low A5 and really only have a high only hand OOP. Check, play a small pot on a good flop is our best action.

It's not going to take much, like a suited A5s or any A2,A3 to make this a raise as we talk about in the video. AAJc5c, just doesnt have the mustard. Off the top of my head, this hand is about equal to pocket 7s in Hold'em in this situation, cold-equity-wise. I think if you ran some sims, w/77 vs some random hands you'll find about 46% equity, and once you toss in an overcard combo, or suitedness to the other hand your equity will avg about 37% range.

It's close, yes. Just like having 77 here would be close and I'd rather see a flop in a smaller pot w/77 in Limit Holdem.

I'm not sure where you are getting your equity calc from.

I ran some ranges on PPT:

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
398,290 trials
AdJc5cAh 39.33%
A2** 34.03%
Top 50% 26.64%

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
398,431 trials
AdJc5cAh 40.64%
Top 20% 32.95%
Top 95% 26.40%

I ran several sims with variations (it doesn't matter a whole lot whether SB plays anywhere 50->95% of hands) and end up with 39-42% equity for our hand. This is also including uber hands(AA2*, etc) in both their ranges that we can eliminate based on their limps. I would certainly raise 77 in holdem here as well--again we have ~40% equity from my calcs:

Hand 0: 26% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K2o, Q5o+, J6o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o }
Hand 1: 33% { 88-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K8s, QTs-Q8s, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, KTo, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 41% (77)

Those are just generic LHE limping ranges I threw together. Again, doesn't change much even if you alter the ranges substantially so the sims are fairly robust.

I found 46% to be the highest, you have 40.6% here. But we are getting nitty with hot/cold equity.

For Hold'em, I was sure 77 was compareable, yes, and 77 is completely debatable, and I feel there will be times I raise it and times I don't. I would need good reads and surely I would raise after on limper and a SB completion.

I can say, there can be times I'd raise AAJc5c but for the purpose of the example, this wasn't one of them. It's pure variance decision as I feel you are around 37%, OOP on avg, which is neutral EV. It comes down to how you want to play postflop and a small pot is going to force your opponents to make mistakes in a split game on a favorable flop for you. Especially with a hand that plays just better than mediocre in mostly one direction in O8. This is theory of poker, I'd rather have my opponents make the mistakes postflop in a small pot.

Ipod version is busto. Paging Rob!

The extra minute and a half is f***ing brilliant.

Ipod version is busto. Paging Rob!

I don't have my iPod on me right now, but I just reproduced it and uploaded it and it seems to play back now. Let me know if there are still issues.

Rob

This is a great vid. I was wondering how much tougher you guys would think the games have gotten in O8?

And is Stars or FTP better for O8, when considering opposition?

This is a great vid. I was wondering how much tougher you guys would think the games have gotten in O8?

And is Stars or FTP better for O8, when considering opposition?

There are enough drifters keeping the games great. Lots of 2nd best being shown down. As for sites, both are great. You'll get higher full ring games on Stars and FTP seems to be more 6-max, I'd say.

Thanks for the reply. I think I've been the second best showing down for the last week, lol. But I'm watching a ton of videos and I've started reading Ray Zee's book, so I'll get it someday

Joe, am I doing it right?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 9 players - View hand 185846
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG+2 posts a big blind (1 SB)

Pre Flop: (2.5 SB) Hero is BB with 3 T 6 A
2 folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (3.5 SB) 5 A A (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) J (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls

River: (5.25 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks

Joe, am I doing it right?

I'm not Joe but I think I would raise the flop and take it from there. Yeah, he has an A a lot and it's a bit of a flip whether he has a high kicker or also paired the 5. Run it through a few sims at propokertools.com giving him Axxx and then progressively tighter ranges and see how you fare. [Edit: I played with sims a little, having a hard time coming up with ranges that you're worse than about 45% equity HU, without going all MUBS. You're a favorite vs 55**!]

The reason I think a raise is so clear though is that you have an emergency low draw. If you play this hand multiple ways, and a low comes in, your low draw is definitely no good. If you play it HU though, you'll get half a lot. Think of it this way...

If he has A5 or 55, that only leaves 2 more cards for him to have a low with, so he'd need 2 low cards better than a 6. If he has 55 you have 9 cards to scoop, if he has A5, you have 6.

If he DOESN'T have A5 or 55, then you have the best hand on the flop like 2/3 of the time. He needs to have a J, Q or K to have you beat at the moment.

If the hand is multiway and a low card comes you are in a bad spot, but HU you're in good shape.


Regarding the rest of the hand, I consider that a pretty tight fold, depending on what you think of MP1. Many many players will fire flop and turn with any A here, SOME will fire with something like 234, a few with a bare 23 with a minor turn improvement like hitting the J or flush draw. It's hard to say how I'd play the turn as played.

Heh it was just pointed out to me that hero can't raise because they're first to act. Fair enough. I guess if you expect MP1 to bet a check-raise is good, otherwise I'd probably lead.

Joe, am I doing it right?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 9 players - View hand 185846
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG+2 posts a big blind (1 SB)



Pre Flop: (2.5 SB) Hero is BB with 3 T 6 A
2 folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (3.5 SB) 5 A A (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) J (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls

River: (5.25 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks

OMG, bet the flop, you have a monster!

Thanks for replies.

Rusty, your comments make a lot of sense - thank you.

~31:27 or so....assuming candyland had a strong high like discussed,
would it be correct (even not knowing which way you were going)
for him to raise it so you have to cold call 2 bets to continue?
or is it better for him to check call since there is a low out (but if he
the current lock on high shouldn't he try to get one of you to fold?)

if he did raise into you so it's 2 bets to you, is that a fold for you then
considering pot odds and that you are in between the two?

~31:27 or so....assuming candyland had a strong high like discussed,
would it be correct (even not knowing which way you were going)
for him to raise it so you have to cold call 2 bets to continue?
or is it better for him to check call since there is a low out (but if he
the current lock on high shouldn't he try to get one of you to fold?)

if he did raise into you so it's 2 bets to you, is that a fold for you then
considering pot odds and that you are in between the two?

He's risking alot with a c/r there for 1/2 the pot as he could be getting free-rolled or might not have the lock high atm.

Watch this short video, and leave a time link!

sorry about the time link. i'll try and do that next time

i was thinking about this more:
with a set or really good high hand (for this board)
...say for easy math 75% the time he's good for the high
then his EV = .75( 1/2 pot) + .25(0)
while you have EV = 75% (1/4 pot (tie low)) + 25% (3/4 pot (tie low and win high)

because the pot is 3-way, 75% he's making 1.5 bets for his 1 bet
and 25% he's losing his 1 bet

even if you have the only nut low and the other guy is just along
for the ride, he's still making 1.5 bets for his 1 bet 75% of the time
that his high hand holds up

if it goes down to 2-way because of his betting/raising, he's effectively lost .25 (1 bet) but gained a fold from one of his opponents

is the above correct or am i missing a concept?

Time Link to 00:44:05

In EP (utg and utg+1) isn't this the type of hand we want to limp and attract other limpers? In this exact spot though i like the raise out of the blinds so you can start building a pot.

Time Link to 01:22:13

hey joe biden, the mic is still on lol